im in for 10 chips, lets get the pre-order started
Take them to Las Vegas and see if they'll accept it at a casino? 
Topic: Butterfly Labs Announces Bulk Chip Sales - page 10. (Read 15801 times)
I think what's going on is that BFL can not order chips in large enough quantities to fullfil their orders... they just order a certain amount at a time and their product is just trickling out.
now if they have a way to raise a gazzilion dollars again (let's sell chips!!) then they could place very large orders of chips.
then they will use the chips received to fullfil the orders while those who ordered chips will wait again...
Let's rob Peter torob pay Paul.
now if they have a way to raise a gazzilion dollars again (let's sell chips!!) then they could place very large orders of chips.
then they will use the chips received to fullfil the orders while those who ordered chips will wait again...
Let's rob Peter to
If you have looked at the photos of the BFL wafers you will see that there is like 1,000 chips per wafer and they had 65 wafers left last week, BLF also mentioned they had already placed order for another batch of wafers. There are long lead times on these things. They obviously don't want to dig into the existing wafer stock to supply chip only sales.
im in for 10 chips, lets get the pre-order started
I guess now Yifu can now check to see if BFL's chips really are 65nm if he gets in on a group buy of 100.
$100 is cheaper than ponying up one of those 6GH/s development boxes.
$100 is cheaper than ponying up one of those 6GH/s development boxes.
One avalon chip costs $10.0109. If one $97 with 16 engines has 2880MH/s and one chip of avalon has 282MH/s then the MH/s for avalon would cost: $0.0355 and bfl's MH/s $0.03368. Man i hope thats correct finally...
Thats about what I got. Its almost 1:1. With no real big power savings either
Its getting the PCBs made for these things and then getting them assembled that scares me. Not that I ever expect these to show up in quantitys. The thing that amazes me is that they are offering a 20% discount on orders over 10,000 chips. Like anyone will be spending $8,000,000 on chips alone. Do you think they could deliver 10,000+ of these in the next 100 days? Its just like the miners where they are taking as many pre-orders as they can, and they will quickly get in over their heads on this as well.
I think what's going on is that BFL can not order chips in large enough quantities to fullfil their orders... they just order a certain amount at a time and their product is just trickling out.
now if they have a way to raise a gazzilion dollars again (let's sell chips!!) then they could place very large orders of chips.
then they will use the chips received to fullfil the orders while those who ordered chips will wait again...
Let's rob Peter torob pay Paul.
now if they have a way to raise a gazzilion dollars again (let's sell chips!!) then they could place very large orders of chips.
then they will use the chips received to fullfil the orders while those who ordered chips will wait again...
Let's rob Peter to
I think you are confusing chips with engines.
The $97 BFL "chip" has 16 engines that each get 180 mh/sec for a total of 2.88 GH per chip (after all doesn't the Jalpeno have 2 chips?)
The $107 Avalon chip gets only 282 mh/sec
So the BFL hashrate is 13 times cheaper than Avalon's.
This is bad math again.
If you purchased Avalon chip when bitcoin was $110 (which was the price multiple time in april, when it even fell below $90 around april 30th) then you paid ~$9 per chip. That $9 per 282Mh or $90 for 2.8Gh.
So one chip has 180MH/s. 14 engines per chip means $89/chip. $89000 per 10k. -10% means $80100 for 10k chips. Avalon charges 782.1BTC * $128 = $100109. Doesnt sound bad. But avalons chips have 282MH/s standard. So the GH costs $3.55 for avalon and $4.45 for BFL. The half power usage doesnt mean much at the current time. And isnt it still open if that is true at the end?
Then 100 days mean 14,28 weeks. Avalon claims to need 9-10 weeks only.
So im not sure if BFL will make a fortune with this... but... when i think about it... i believe most BFL customers will happily get their chips instead nothing. At least they know the chips are working. Even when this means they have to wait some time to have a working miner... its still more reliable to wait for someone in the community to build a miner.
Maybe some people will prefer to buy BFL chips too instead having to trust a groupbuy. Its a good move to lower the minimum amount of chips needed to order.
Something wrong with my calculations?
Then 100 days mean 14,28 weeks. Avalon claims to need 9-10 weeks only.
So im not sure if BFL will make a fortune with this... but... when i think about it... i believe most BFL customers will happily get their chips instead nothing. At least they know the chips are working. Even when this means they have to wait some time to have a working miner... its still more reliable to wait for someone in the community to build a miner.
Maybe some people will prefer to buy BFL chips too instead having to trust a groupbuy. Its a good move to lower the minimum amount of chips needed to order.
Something wrong with my calculations?
Yes there is something wrong there. As soon as I saw this chip sales I did the math on it.
$89 per chip x 10k chips is $890,000 -10% for $801,000. When Avalon sold chips in april (when most of us bought chips) it was about $80,000 for 10k chips. So you get about 10x the number of chips from Avalon as you do from BFL.
This is important to note because 10x the speed of an Avalon chip is 2.8Gh and thats just under what a BFL chip can do. Its about more than just delivery times and speed. Avalon pcbs are hard enough for us to sort out. Trust me, Im working on it and its not easy.
Just imagine how hard it will be to get the BFL pcb straight and working perfect compared to the Avalon pcb we are still sorting out. Not only that but the cost and time to assemble these boards vs Avalon pcbs could make it even worse. You end up with a BFL unit that costs way more in time and money to finish. If you ever get your chips that is.
I think you are confusing chips with engines.
The $97 BFL "chip" has 16 engines that each get 180 mh/sec for a total of 2.88 GH per chip (after all doesn't the Jalpeno have 2 chips?)
The $107 Avalon chip gets only 282 mh/sec
So the BFL hashrate is 13 times cheaper than Avalon's.
Each BFL chip has 10 times the transistors and 10 times the hashrate of the avalon chips. Could be a game changer if they can deliver.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1402474
One avalon chip costs $10.0109. If one $97 with 16 engines has 2880MH/s and one chip of avalon has 282MH/s then the MH/s for avalon would cost: $0.0355 and bfl's MH/s $0.03368. Man i hope thats correct finally...
For me it looks like BFL might chose the price by looking at avalon and underbidding them a little bit. In fact they made their MH/s 5.13% less costly. Im not sure that its less enough to invest. At least with the longer waiting time and no miner available. But maybe this will change soon.
They are unproven... and likely never ship in time.
Thanks no.
Thanks no.
The chips are proved to work as far as i know. Jalapenos are working already. So buying these chips would be a relatively safe bet.
They are unproven... and likely never ship in time.
Thanks no.
Thanks no.
I Thought one of their chips were hashing at 5 gigahash/sec
so why the different prices?
Yes each BFL chip has 10 times the transistors and 10 times the hashrate of the avalon chips. Could be a game changer if they can deliver.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1402474
I would like to see someone design a 10Gh/s unit. I feel the BFL 5GH/s Jalapeno was fine for the time when it was announced a year ago, but the mining difficulty has gone up so much you really need 10Gh/s to get the same result.
No thanks.
I Thought one of their chips were hashing at 5 gigahash/sec
so why the different prices?
So one chip has 180MH/s. 14 engines per chip means $89/chip. $89000 per 10k. -10% means $80100 for 10k chips. Avalon charges 782.1BTC * $128 = $100109. Doesnt sound bad. But avalons chips have 282MH/s standard. So the GH costs $3.55 for avalon and $4.45 for BFL. The half power usage doesnt mean much at the current time. And isnt it still open if that is true at the end?
Then 100 days mean 14,28 weeks. Avalon claims to need 9-10 weeks only.
So im not sure if BFL will make a fortune with this... but... when i think about it... i believe most BFL customers will happily get their chips instead nothing. At least they know the chips are working. Even when this means they have to wait some time to have a working miner... its still more reliable to wait for someone in the community to build a miner.
Maybe some people will prefer to buy BFL chips too instead having to trust a groupbuy. Its a good move to lower the minimum amount of chips needed to order.
Something wrong with my calculations?
Then 100 days mean 14,28 weeks. Avalon claims to need 9-10 weeks only.
So im not sure if BFL will make a fortune with this... but... when i think about it... i believe most BFL customers will happily get their chips instead nothing. At least they know the chips are working. Even when this means they have to wait some time to have a working miner... its still more reliable to wait for someone in the community to build a miner.
Maybe some people will prefer to buy BFL chips too instead having to trust a groupbuy. Its a good move to lower the minimum amount of chips needed to order.
Something wrong with my calculations?
Yes there is something wrong there. As soon as I saw this chip sales I did the math on it.
$89 per chip x 10k chips is $890,000 -10% for $801,000. When Avalon sold chips in april (when most of us bought chips) it was about $80,000 for 10k chips. So you get about 10x the number of chips from Avalon as you do from BFL.
This is important to note because 10x the speed of an Avalon chip is 2.8Gh and thats just under what a BFL chip can do. Its about more than just delivery times and speed. Avalon pcbs are hard enough for us to sort out. Trust me, Im working on it and its not easy.
Just imagine how hard it will be to get the BFL pcb straight and working perfect compared to the Avalon pcb we are still sorting out. Not only that but the cost and time to assemble these boards vs Avalon pcbs could make it even worse. You end up with a BFL unit that costs way more in time and money to finish. If you ever get your chips that is.
Ouw... big mistake... but i think its not as bad as you wrote... according to https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2344464 a jalapeno has 2 chips and 28 engines. That would mean half the price you mentioned. But when i read that post again... he wrote that an engine alone has 180MH/s. That would mean when a jalapeno with 5GH only has 2 chips then each chip would have 2500MH/s... can this be? If thats true the BFL-Asics would be way cheaper per GH than avalons... but maybe im too tired yet...
They probably don't need to sell chips, no doubt they have been badgered to death about the Avalon chip sales.
It's good to see two chip sources on the horizon, even if neither have actually shipped any batches of them yet.
It's good to see two chip sources on the horizon, even if neither have actually shipped any batches of them yet.
Just imagine how hard it will be to get the BFL pcb straight and working perfect compared to the Avalon pcb we are still sorting out. Not only that but the cost and time to assemble these boards vs Avalon pcbs could make it even worse. You end up with a BFL unit that costs way more in time and money to finish. If you ever get your chips that is.
So absolutely nothing's changed then?
So... I haven't been paying attention.
Are all the engines equivalent performance, and if so... what is the performance per engine?
Are all the engines equivalent performance, and if so... what is the performance per engine?
2 chips per Jalapeno
~28 engines for 5000 MH/s, if we assume each engine produces 1 hash per clock then the engines are running at ~180Mhz and doing 180Mh/s
Imagine how much it stung to go from 1 chip @ $40-60 apiece to 2 chips per Jalapeno. That probably blew up their margins on all of their $179 era pre-orders.
Heatsink + fan: $15
PCB: $20
Case, cable, and power brick: $15
2 chips: $100
Estimate COGS of Jalapeno is $150. Those are some slim margins @ $179 retail.
Forget how little they are making on the Jalapenos.
At $50 per chip (if that's correct) the 1.5 TH/sec mini rig will cost them $26,000 in chips alone to manufacture!
At $50 per chip (if that's correct) the 1.5 TH/sec mini rig will cost them $26,000 in chips alone to manufacture!
Dude ASICs cost between $0.5 - $2 each to manufacture dependant on volume of chips and intricacy of mask layers.
$1 to $2 is probably the correct marginal cost per chip. I was just quoting the guy (see above) who said the cost to produce chips for the Jalapeno was $40-$60/chip.
So one chip has 180MH/s. 14 engines per chip means $89/chip. $89000 per 10k. -10% means $80100 for 10k chips. Avalon charges 782.1BTC * $128 = $100109. Doesnt sound bad. But avalons chips have 282MH/s standard. So the GH costs $3.55 for avalon and $4.45 for BFL. The half power usage doesnt mean much at the current time. And isnt it still open if that is true at the end?
Then 100 days mean 14,28 weeks. Avalon claims to need 9-10 weeks only.
So im not sure if BFL will make a fortune with this... but... when i think about it... i believe most BFL customers will happily get their chips instead nothing. At least they know the chips are working. Even when this means they have to wait some time to have a working miner... its still more reliable to wait for someone in the community to build a miner.
Maybe some people will prefer to buy BFL chips too instead having to trust a groupbuy. Its a good move to lower the minimum amount of chips needed to order.
Something wrong with my calculations?
Then 100 days mean 14,28 weeks. Avalon claims to need 9-10 weeks only.
So im not sure if BFL will make a fortune with this... but... when i think about it... i believe most BFL customers will happily get their chips instead nothing. At least they know the chips are working. Even when this means they have to wait some time to have a working miner... its still more reliable to wait for someone in the community to build a miner.
Maybe some people will prefer to buy BFL chips too instead having to trust a groupbuy. Its a good move to lower the minimum amount of chips needed to order.
Something wrong with my calculations?
Yes there is something wrong there. As soon as I saw this chip sales I did the math on it.
$89 per chip x 10k chips is $890,000 -10% for $801,000. When Avalon sold chips in april (when most of us bought chips) it was about $80,000 for 10k chips. So you get about 10x the number of chips from Avalon as you do from BFL.
This is important to note because 10x the speed of an Avalon chip is 2.8Gh and thats just under what a BFL chip can do. Its about more than just delivery times and speed. Avalon pcbs are hard enough for us to sort out. Trust me, Im working on it and its not easy.
Just imagine how hard it will be to get the BFL pcb straight and working perfect compared to the Avalon pcb we are still sorting out. Not only that but the cost and time to assemble these boards vs Avalon pcbs could make it even worse. You end up with a BFL unit that costs way more in time and money to finish. If you ever get your chips that is.
It's Luke Jr. In the background.
Chip delivery schedule is approximately 100 days through end packaging once your order is placed.
~100 days + 2 weeks, right?
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