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Topic: Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders - page 31. (Read 59178 times)

legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
BFL aside, for me, nothing about this seems to be sincere from xian.  I'd agree with you on the apology issue otherwise.  Instead, it seems like a venom filled immature tantrum thinly veiled as a PSA and an apology.

Give me a fucking break. Are you insinuating Josh has been mature or sincere over these last 11 months ?

Go back to your fucking BFL shoutbox and reality distortion field.

Seriously. Just fuck right off you sycophantic shill.

Yet another tool to add to my ignore list.

lol dude I never said a word about Josh or his part. . . I believe you've given that enough attention.  And feel free to add me to your ignore list.  I will not be heart broken

I never have, or never will, put people on an ignore list.
sr. member
Activity: 335
Merit: 250
BFL aside, for me, nothing about this seems to be sincere from xian.  I'd agree with you on the apology issue otherwise.  Instead, it seems like a venom filled immature tantrum thinly veiled as a PSA and an apology.

Give me a fucking break. Are you insinuating Josh has been mature or sincere over these last 11 months ?

Go back to your fucking BFL shoutbox and reality distortion field.

Seriously. Just fuck right off you sycophantic shill.

Yet another tool to add to my ignore list.

lol dude I never said a word about Josh or his part. . . I believe you've given that enough attention.  And feel free to add me to your ignore list.  I will not be heart broken



Edit: nice you really like to use your crayon box of "big boy" words. . .and "shill" that's original
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending



That's how you do rational, courteous threads.  You do not write "Feel like defending BFL now?" as the title and just post pictures as the content, like you are some retarded super sleuth who's uncovered a nefarious plot to overthrow the government that only exists in their mind.  That just makes you an idiot and an asshole, which is why he got the response he got.

~Fearless Shagaford~
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
BFL aside, for me, nothing about this seems to be sincere from xian.  I'd agree with you on the apology issue otherwise.  Instead, it seems like a venom filled immature tantrum thinly veiled as a PSA and an apology.

Give me a fucking break. Are you insinuating Josh has been mature or sincere over these last 11 months ?

Go back to your fucking BFL shoutbox and reality distortion field.

Seriously. Just fuck right off you sycophantic shill.

Yet another tool to add to my ignore list.

Whoooaaaa - Endlessa -  you really touched a nerve there.

Nice style of writing xian - I'm sure you can go through the whole of your life speaking to people like that and they just wont mind. Just like BFL didn't mind cancelling your order huh.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1067
Christian Antkow
BFL aside, for me, nothing about this seems to be sincere from xian.  I'd agree with you on the apology issue otherwise.  Instead, it seems like a venom filled immature tantrum thinly veiled as a PSA and an apology.

Give me a fucking break. Are you insinuating Josh has been mature or sincere over these last 11 months ?

Go back to your fucking BFL shoutbox and reality distortion field.

Seriously. Just fuck right off you sycophantic shill.

Yet another tool to add to my ignore list.
sr. member
Activity: 335
Merit: 250

I understand and have read that law.  But for that to stick you have to prove intent. ...ask any lawyer, it sounds simple, but it's not

I just love seeing these brand new accounts coming to BFL's defense after missing 7+ months of deadlines. Quite entertianing. Thanks Josh.

Hah Smiley lol Smiley I knew I felt different when I woke up this morning.. . . .you must be a whiz at solving mysteries. Shaggy is that you? Wink hah thanks I need a nice laugh about now

From Josh from a locked thread:

Quote
[Archive] BFL trolling museum
December 31, 2012, 05:51:01 PM
 #1485
Sorry sunshine, but D3 can't lock threads anymore.  His ability to moderate threads he has no business in has been removed.  So go ahead, ask away, see how well that works for you.

I like your highlighting, you've managed to highlight every lie CreativeX has written in the past 10 threads, good job.  But, seeing as you two are comparable liars, that's not a surprise.  Neither of you can provide anything to backup what you say, so you just keep spouting the same nonsense over and over.  And you wonder why I call you an idiot.

Frizz:  Tell me what all those posts have in common that other critical threads of BFL, on the BFL forums don't have,  would make them candidates for deletion?  My guess is you can't figure it out, being too stupid to understand your ass from a hole in the ground... but hey I thought I'd ask.  You've also managed to find the 3 posts that have been deleted, out of 8700... congratulations Scooby Doo, you are a real detective! 

BFL censorship statistics:  .00034% of the posts are censored!  OMG, it's a conspiracy!



Norville "Shaggy" Rogers, illegitimate son of Rex Rogers, AKA James Ray Houston, Daddy-O of Sonny Vleisides.

http://www.talkgold.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-23413.html

Quote
There is another "experienced" scammer who fits this profile, had the means and the team to do it, and because his identity was exposed during his last scam would be VERY careful the next time. James Ray Houston, AKA Rex Rogers AKA Midas Mulligan.
He was in Costa Rica last I heard.

Pulled a fast one originally called Laissez Faire City, stole a ton of money, strung it out for months while he made a clean getaway, the usual.

Alfredo Alberto hangs out at Distributed City with a lot of this guys former, maybe, friends. Seems odd that old Alfredo would be here now to misdirect any pursuit.
J. Orlin Grabbe
Metropipe
Ian Fraser

They were all over the last scam and may have been part of FLO.

See now your just proving why I  can't trust your "fact" based detective work. . . .this is awesome hahha
Ty for illustrating why people who want to believe something will always find a way to prove it.  Even if it's retarded.
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending

I understand and have read that law.  But for that to stick you have to prove intent. ...ask any lawyer, it sounds simple, but it's not

I just love seeing these brand new accounts coming to BFL's defense after missing 7+ months of deadlines. Quite entertianing. Thanks Josh.

Hah Smiley lol Smiley I knew I felt different when I woke up this morning.. . . .you must be a whiz at solving mysteries. Shaggy is that you? Wink hah thanks I need a nice laugh about now

From Josh from a locked thread:

Quote
[Archive] BFL trolling museum
December 31, 2012, 05:51:01 PM
 #1485
Sorry sunshine, but D3 can't lock threads anymore.  His ability to moderate threads he has no business in has been removed.  So go ahead, ask away, see how well that works for you.

I like your highlighting, you've managed to highlight every lie CreativeX has written in the past 10 threads, good job.  But, seeing as you two are comparable liars, that's not a surprise.  Neither of you can provide anything to backup what you say, so you just keep spouting the same nonsense over and over.  And you wonder why I call you an idiot.

Frizz:  Tell me what all those posts have in common that other critical threads of BFL, on the BFL forums don't have,  would make them candidates for deletion?  My guess is you can't figure it out, being too stupid to understand your ass from a hole in the ground... but hey I thought I'd ask.  You've also managed to find the 3 posts that have been deleted, out of 8700... congratulations Scooby Doo, you are a real detective!  

BFL censorship statistics:  .00034% of the posts are censored!  OMG, it's a conspiracy!



Norville "Shaggy" Rogers, illegitimate son of Rex Rogers, AKA James Ray Houston, Daddy-O of Sonny Vleisides.

http://www.talkgold.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-23413.html

Quote
There is another "experienced" scammer who fits this profile, had the means and the team to do it, and because his identity was exposed during his last scam would be VERY careful the next time. James Ray Houston, AKA Rex Rogers AKA Midas Mulligan.
He was in Costa Rica last I heard.

Pulled a fast one originally called Laissez Faire City, stole a ton of money, strung it out for months while he made a clean getaway, the usual.

Alfredo Alberto hangs out at Distributed City with a lot of this guys former, maybe, friends. Seems odd that old Alfredo would be here now to misdirect any pursuit.
J. Orlin Grabbe
Metropipe
Ian Fraser

They were all over the last scam and may have been part of FLO.

Quote
James Ray Houston, also known as Rex Rogers , used his son in most of his scams.
Very many of the Flo systems were also present in the Laissez faire City scam
.

FLO = FreeLandOpps

~Fearless Shagaford~
sr. member
Activity: 335
Merit: 250

I understand and have read that law.  But for that to stick you have to prove intent. ...ask any lawyer, it sounds simple, but it's not

I just love seeing these brand new accounts coming to BFL's defense after missing 7+ months of deadlines. Quite entertianing. Thanks Josh.

Hah Smiley lol Smiley I knew I felt different when I woke up this morning.. . . .you must be a whiz at solving mysteries. Shaggy is that you? Wink hah thanks I need a nice laugh about now
legendary
Activity: 3878
Merit: 1193

I understand and have read that law.  But for that to stick you have to prove intent. ...ask any lawyer, it sounds simple, but it's not

I just love seeing these brand new accounts coming to BFL's defense after missing 7+ months of deadlines. Quite entertianing. Thanks Josh.
sr. member
Activity: 335
Merit: 250
You are part of the problem... simple as that.  BFL is cancerous it should be cut out of the community the discussion can now move back to why people should be told in clear terms never to buy from BFL and should take this opportunity to get refunds.

Yeah, cuz this is definitely fact based discussion your displaying /s
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
You are part of the problem... simple as that.  BFL is cancerous it should be cut out of the community the discussion can now move back to why people should be told in clear terms never to buy from BFL and should take this opportunity to get refunds.  Ignored.
sr. member
Activity: 335
Merit: 250
That's another way of assessing it Smiley

I'm just saying from a risk management perspective you have to assess it (independent of belief or emotion) decide what your truth is and accept responsibility for it

Edit: and never risk what you can't lose

Of course all of BFL's customers should have been aware of the risks involved and treated it like the purchase of a lottery ticket.

I was pointing out that BFL probably violated any number of consumer protection laws. For instance, regarding Virginia:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+59.1-200

§ 59.1-200. Prohibited practices.
A. The following fraudulent acts or practices committed by a supplier in connection with a consumer transaction are hereby declared unlawful:
5. Misrepresenting that goods or services have certain quantities, characteristics, ingredients, uses, or benefits;

Most states have similar laws on the books.

I understand and have read that law.  But for that to stick you have to prove intent. ...ask any lawyer, it sounds simple, but it's not
sr. member
Activity: 335
Merit: 250
No let's keep the thread up and let us continue to add to the mountain of horseshit that BFL continues to produce... There is absolutely no defense possible for BFL at this point. This is the death spiral we are watching. This will not be the last "cancellation" and "refund" thread.

Even if one person who reads this and decides no I will not do business with these people then it is better than PBS.

Hey everybody is entitled to a nicely stated opinion. Smiley  

Full disclosure, I do have several orders with BFL.  I am happy with my experience.  I am also happy with the returns I will be getting when ever my product lands on my door.

Though, I think that's mostly because I came into this with my eyes wide open, had experience with several different small companies/startups, and am willing to accept whatever loss I take before I see gains until I decide it's too much or a product is delivered.

As, far as the hate speech goes, these are forums on the internet.  Everybody loses their shit eventually on people that annoy them, if it's too much log off or whatever happens is just that. Smiley

I just hope people in the future can take responsibility for their actions, maintaining their business relationships, and their own decisions. You'll never be able to sustain a mining business without thinking about business concerns.

Also, I love PBS too Smiley I was just being playful Smiley I argue only in the hope of doing my best to explore something, or express my own truth. Smiley

G' luck peeps Smiley



Your own "truth" really? Give me a break. There is little thing called reality. It is obvious to most anyone just reading Josh's posts alone that BFL is a world of denial. Your support for them as tepid as it is doesn't do much of anything. You have clearly agreed with the basic premise BFL is not delivering as promised and they can't be defended in any way  shape or form given their business practices to date. There will be repercussions that linger in this community when BFL implodes in a few weeks or months. Rather than supporting a company potentially ranging from the minimal it has issue in PR and Production to the maximum BFL maybe fraudulent and criminal in its behaviour I suggest you pull your orders in solidarity and help pull their house of cards down now rather than string along more people needlessly. At this point your feeble whitewashing of this as some how necessary for the good of BFL is simply the most outrageous form of either hubris or self-denial I can't determine which.

These threads are a VERY VERY important lessons for those new and less informed that there are people in this community, particularly those at BFL, have no regard for the forward movement of Bitcoin. The glaring differences of Avalon and BFL are so stark that one wonders how on one hand a group of people attempts to "corner" a market and fails miserably while another attempts to drive a wedge into any attempt for anyone to corner the market and are in a position to corner the market but instead seek alternatives at their expense? To me when you look at what those two brands represent. One actually delivers honesty and the other lacks any form institutional ethics and openly flaunts their disregard for the entire community.

I think you are part of the problem. Xian apologizes openly for his behavior... where is the same from Josh? Jody? You? No sorry but you get no pass here. You really are the worst type of person to lay blame at this guys feet. You are part of the problem now. You are enabling BFL and even encouraging this to keep happening. I find that repulsive.

Well you can think what you like about me and anybody else.   I'm not apologizing for my behavior, because I have just expressed my opinion and the world as I see it.  I think it's important for people to see both sides of a story.  I personally live by a strong belief that everybody is responsible for themselves.  I also don't particularly feel the same way about avalon as you do.  Avalon is a greedy price gouger that is taking advantage of a community for short term gains.  Remains to be seen where batch 3 lands on the scale.  But again that's my perspective (truth).  Now, you seem to be a person who believes in absolute truth.  In my opinion, there is no such thing, except in mathematics .  To me, it seems naive to think that anyone here (or any where) speaks with absolute truth.  We speak with our individual truths.  We converse and believe in things until other people convince us differently or we are isolated from any other conflicting ideas.  I can see your statements are full of emotion and conjecture.  So I will read them as such, because it's my view and it's my right to have it.  Also, I feel there is a difference between saying "I'm sorry" and behaving as if you are.   A person can say that all day long, then run a defaming ad campaign, threaten lawsuits, and then persecute people with differing opinions.  None of that says I'm sorry. . .and I saw him do it while apologizing.  So I personally believe we're looking at a two headed snake here.  BFL aside, for me, nothing about this seems to be sincere from xian.  I'd agree with you on the apology issue otherwise.  Instead, it seems like a venom filled immature tantrum thinly veiled as a PSA and an apology.  I'm not dumb enough to buy it.  In addition, I'm not going to argue the BFL bit with you because most of it is conjecture and the rest of it is boring crap that's been beaten to death on both sides.
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1000
That's another way of assessing it Smiley

I'm just saying from a risk management perspective you have to assess it (independent of belief or emotion) decide what your truth is and accept responsibility for it

Edit: and never risk what you can't lose

Of course all of BFL's customers should have been aware of the risks involved and treated it like the purchase of a lottery ticket.

I was pointing out that BFL probably violated any number of consumer protection laws. For instance, regarding Virginia:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+59.1-200

§ 59.1-200. Prohibited practices.
A. The following fraudulent acts or practices committed by a supplier in connection with a consumer transaction are hereby declared unlawful:
5. Misrepresenting that goods or services have certain quantities, characteristics, ingredients, uses, or benefits;

Most states have similar laws on the books.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
No let's keep the thread up and let us continue to add to the mountain of horseshit that BFL continues to produce... There is absolutely no defense possible for BFL at this point. This is the death spiral we are watching. This will not be the last "cancellation" and "refund" thread.

Even if one person who reads this and decides no I will not do business with these people then it is better than PBS.

Hey everybody is entitled to a nicely stated opinion. Smiley  

Full disclosure, I do have several orders with BFL.  I am happy with my experience.  I am also happy with the returns I will be getting when ever my product lands on my door.

Though, I think that's mostly because I came into this with my eyes wide open, had experience with several different small companies/startups, and am willing to accept whatever loss I take before I see gains until I decide it's too much or a product is delivered.

As, far as the hate speech goes, these are forums on the internet.  Everybody loses their shit eventually on people that annoy them, if it's too much log off or whatever happens is just that. Smiley

I just hope people in the future can take responsibility for their actions, maintaining their business relationships, and their own decisions. You'll never be able to sustain a mining business without thinking about business concerns.

Also, I love PBS too Smiley I was just being playful Smiley I argue only in the hope of doing my best to explore something, or express my own truth. Smiley

G' luck peeps Smiley



Your own "truth" really? Give me a break. There is little thing called reality. It is obvious to most anyone just reading Josh's posts alone that BFL is a world of denial. Your support for them as tepid as it is doesn't do much of anything. You have clearly agreed with the basic premise BFL is not delivering as promised and they can't be defended in any way  shape or form given their business practices to date. There will be repercussions that linger in this community when BFL implodes in a few weeks or months. Rather than supporting a company potentially ranging from the minimal it has issue in PR and Production to the maximum BFL maybe fraudulent and criminal in its behaviour I suggest you pull your orders in solidarity and help pull their house of cards down now rather than string along more people needlessly. At this point your feeble whitewashing of this as some how necessary for the good of BFL is simply the most outrageous form of either hubris or self-denial I can't determine which.

These threads are a VERY VERY important lessons for those new and less informed that there are people in this community, particularly those at BFL, have no regard for the forward movement of Bitcoin. The glaring differences of Avalon and BFL are so stark that one wonders how on one hand a group of people attempts to "corner" a market and fails miserably while another attempts to drive a wedge into any attempt for anyone to corner the market and are in a position to corner the market but instead seek alternatives at their expense? To me when you look at what those two brands represent. One actually delivers honesty and the other lacks any form institutional ethics and openly flaunts their disregard for the entire community.

I think you are part of the problem. Xian apologizes openly for his behavior... where is the same from Josh? Jody? You? No sorry but you get no pass here. You really are the worst type of person to lay blame at this guys feet. You are part of the problem now. You are enabling BFL and even encouraging this to keep happening. I find that repulsive.
sr. member
Activity: 335
Merit: 250
That's another way of assessing it Smiley

I'm just saying from a risk management perspective you have to assess it (independent of belief or emotion) decide what your truth is and accept responsibility for it



Edit: and never risk what you can't lose
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1000
Great scenario, but in the instance your speaking of there would something called an SLA (Service Level Agreement).  That would be the grounds you would hold the them liable. Such is not the case with BFL.

There is one other alternative:
If BFL knowingly made false statements about the state of their product (like they would ship in 2 weeks when they had no working chips), you could file a civil case against them for fraud. There are 3 components needed to prove fraud:

1) Material false statements made. These forums are full of statements made by BFL that later turned out to be impossible. We need not discuss them at length.

2) Reliance on the statements by the victims. People hang on BFL's every word while trying to determine when (if ever) they can ship in volume. Whenever BFL reports that they will ship "in two weeks" TM, everyone who bought is reassured.

3) Damage to the victim was caused. Loss of income. If you offer to provide a product or service and then fail to do so, you have damaged the customer if they are relying on that product or service to make money. If BFL never claimed a ship date, nobody could rely on that date for the beginning of an income stream.


1) They believed they could do what they said (Good luck disproving that).  No, if you read the history, not the trolling, they were very transparent about what happened.  
I have been on these forums since before day one of BFL's FPGA business. There is documented evidence of them claiming things that could not possibly be true (claims of chip power measurements and later admitting they had not even received the chips yet, sending product to test labs for FCC certification then later admitting they changed their chips packaging because it melted, etc). Those are not trolls, they are facts and have been linked here ad infinitum. Always there are new posters who show up (unaware of the history or not following the links to hear BFL's own words) and claim it is all just made up and BFL never made false statements. That is the nature of internet forums. Of course, as soon as I start providing links to the statements made by BFL along with a timeline I become a "troll" and links to other peoples words are obviously just my lies to start flame threads...
One does not have to prove what they believe. One most only prove they knowingly made a false public statement to reassure their customer base about the state of the product.

2) Perhaps, but I will still hold that they (right or wrong) thought they could solve the issues and get it working at the times they said.  This can be shown by them drop the FPGA production contract, because they actually thought they'd be delivering. (In hindsight they admitted they wished they had not done this, because they lost a lot of income)
They released statements to ensure their investors (some call them customers). There is no way on earth they could have measured the power output or hash speed of a chip that did not yet exist (which supposedly had 20% of their current power usage). They then waged a marketing campaign based on power efficiency, their chips were 5 times better etc etc. Nor could they have sent product for testing that ran so hot it melted the chip packaging.
They might have believed eventually that they could solve the problems, but the forums were clamoring for concrete milestones. Maybe they felt they had to provide something that demonstrated progress. They were after all in an intense 3-way marketing war with Avalon and bASIC for customers.

3) There was no victim here.  Each person is responsible for evaluating their own risk/potential.  At any point, any person can exit when they feel the risk is not acceptable.  
Actually that is not correct. If you sell a product that did not exist and announce in a press release that product will ship in two weeks you are treading on very thin ice if it does not. This is not a case of selling a product that exists but cannot be obtained. This is selling a product that did not yet exist and misrepresenting the state of development.

This happens all the time in hardware manufacturing of servers, slip deadlines, etc.  During the dot com boom it was rampant, there was nothing you could do about it with out an SLA contract (which you paid dearly with $$ for).  It cost plenty of companies hard money and opportunity.  All you can do is a proper risk assessment  and  decide to pull your order and go else where or wait it out.  Same thing here. . .again it does suck horribly, but if your going to be in the mining "business" this needs to be considered in your assessments.

Again, selling servers that exist and function but cannot be obtained due to supply or manufacturing issues are governed by very different rules than products that do not yet exist and/or do not yet function. If you ever wondered why BFL only accepts Bitcoin or Paypal, it is because credit card companies will come after you if you sell products to their customers that do not exist. They were forced to ship a few products when Paypal demanded they do so to demonstrate the product existed (Jody admitted this).
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
Ironically on mine too, followed by a BFL Single SC ad when I refreshed!
sr. member
Activity: 335
Merit: 250
lol nm it just ironically popped up on my screen Smiley lol Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 335
Merit: 250
This is not about Xian (although Endlessa would like you to believe it is, now that he's taken out ads against BFL)...

It's about BFL, their shady CEO and equally as shady business practices.

"Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders " <-- thread

and the reasons it happened. ...somebody got a link to the ad? I'll go get some popcorn

Maybe you should create a new thread "My ad campaign!"

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