Topic: Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders - page 48. (Read 59172 times)

You're ALREADY looking back with pangs of regret, but only regret that you got booted. Not regret for your behavior. I don't know if you're capable of that part...

 We obviously know the answer to that now, don't we ? I've already admitted I expressed my frustration a little bit too harshly. I really shouldn't make excuses. What more do you want me to say ?

 Additionally, no, I wouldn't expect them to ship, because I recognized they don't have any product to ship. Expecting timely and accurate information was too much to ask for.

Hence the hypothetical pretense about the entire discussion.  If BFL could ship, they would.

What did you think would happen when you became a one man band of barage? Did you think BFL would say 'yeah we better ship now because Xian01 is getting pissed off big time' ? or did you think BFL might say 'you know what, this guy has gone waaaayyyy too far - give him his money back and get rid' ?

The assumptions are not really valid and therefore it does hold up to business logic because they cannot raise their prices 15x nor can they ship in bulk. Also, they need to clear all the orders at the original prices before they can sell ones at 15x. So it makes more sense to mine with a few units than to ship them at this point.

 Not sure I would go so far with the idiot classification. Disgruntled and bitter, sure. Idiot ? Yeah, I guess I was an idiot holding out for 11 months, being strung along, and being OK with taking abuse from their COO.

 Except for that whole part where I was not OK with taking the abuse and constant delays, and expressed my displeasure in a pretty harsh way.

 In retrospect, I should have just taken a refund and bought Avalon or ASICMiner.

 I'm sure one day BFL will ship and I'll look at all you with your BFL rigs and I'll feel a pang of regret. It's too bad for me I can't keep my cool and bite-down hard on the ball when I'm getting it from behind.

  I feel for ya Xian.But I must remain silent.........................

Right - so since we agree given those assumptions, doesn't that contradict this statement?:


I get that a lot of people are pissed about BFL's delays, but the accusation that they would be mining with their own product instead of shipping if they could just doesn't hold up to business logic.  It reeks of bitterness about the prior missed deadlines or issues with their PR.

But they're not capable of or willing to ship in quantity either. A couple hundred units from Avalon? So what? They aren't capable or or interested in shipping in quantity. And neither is ASIC Miner. They've said several times that the only reason they're actually selling at all, is that they can't bring more equipment online until there's mor hashing power out there, to prevent 51% of network share. So they're only selling in the mean time. Once BFL comes online, full-force, Avalon is toast, because they can't produce at speed or quantity, and ASIC Miner are gonners too, because they don't even want to be in the retail game in the first place.

If BFL starts shipping in quantity, difficulty is going to SKYROCKET, and that will create even MORE demand for their product. Anybody who spends more than a few cursory seconds on this realizes that there's WAY MORE money in selling the 'shovels' than there is in mining.

Guaranteed, there's nobody who wants BFL up and producing (and shipping) at maximum capacity more than BFL does.

(Eating popcorn watching this thread while waiting for btc conf to start) 

Sure, assuming they could price their product 15x and ship in bulk right now, then they would be better off shipping product. However, I don't believe they can do either.

The ASICMiner product is not really competitive. Even so, it and the Avalon chip sails have already sucked up a lot of capital that would have otherwise gone to BFL. Also, both products are being sold at inflated prices. If BFL actually enters the market, Avalon and ASICMiner could revise their prices down to compete.

This PuertoLibre makes it his profession to slag off BFL just like Xian01 does. Different motives however:

PuertoLibre - he already has a 60GH/s avalon asic and actively encourages people to get a BFL refund - this is because he is happy with the 3-5 BTC he earns every day and he's worried his earnings will reduce dramatically when the BFL asics are delivered.

Xian01 - his motive is unclear - he's lost a 2012 order - he could have sold it for 10x the price he paid if he wasn't such an idiot - to me the only thing I can think is that he's an idiot...

1.) Avalon does not have a history of setting shipping dates in the near future and then missing them by months

2.) Avalon does not have a history of calling people who disagree with them on these boards "trolls", "douches", and "retards".

3.) The guy actually got his Avalon unit

4.) There is only this instance of this sort of thing that I am aware of. That could mean they shipped units that were used for testing. If everyone who got one noticed that it had been run for some time, that would be different.

6.) Avalon's communication with their customers could be a lot better, but their communication is not substituting for their product like BFL's is. Avalon's product works and was well received by the marketplace. There is also a language barrier.

7.) There is not much dust in those pictures. You should see my rig if I run it in my garage with the case lid off. It gets dusty really fast. It is impossible to tell from those pictures for how long the unit has been run. With good filters and a dust free environment, maybe a month? In some converted warehouse in China with poor air quality, maybe a week.

8.) The damage to the unit is way more disturbing, but that is a QA issue and it might be pervasive and it might be an isolated incident. With just 1 complaint of this nature out of 300 units it is hard to tell (the other complaints were shipping damage or loss AFAIK). We will know more with batch 2.

I was speaking hypothetically in the realm of "if BFL was able to ship right now in volume"

This would rely on the assumption of two things: that they could fill their existing orders of $125/$275 quickly, and that every new order placed could be priced at roughly 14-15x the current price - and people would pay it (following that people paid that much per mh/s on the USB miners)

It's very simple to logically believe that IF BFL could ship right now, they would, because they would have a monopoly on ASIC sales given their hash rates... and they could charge a LOT more for each unit. 

The money they could make in BTC a day would be nothing compared to the $ they could be bringing in and then just converting to BTC

Right now, you can make far more money mining than you can shipping product.
According to dustcoin, 500GH/s will get you $2779.88 per day. Assuming that is 100 Jalapenos, that would consist of 200 BFL chips. BFL raised the price of the Jalapeno by $100 after they realized it would have 2 chips instead of 1. They are doing small runs of chips which implies an MPW process at small production runs (a few hundred chips). If correct, then it implies a COGs of $50-100 cost per chip. That would leave roughly 50% margin on their Jalapenos which means roughly $150 of profit per device sold. They will earn that in a week or two by mining. If they "burn in" each unit for a week, they would double their margins.

That is exactly the sort of temptation I would expect that BFL could not resist. They are already way behind in the marketplace to Avalon, and ASICMiner is adding a large amount of hashrate to their operation (their retail product is not competitive). Avalon batch 2 is shipping, and the secondary market for Avalon boards+chips is due to mature by the end of summer. However, there is no indication that BFL has added any significant hash rate so I don't think they are mining to any great degree.

 I made the mistake of thinking they wouldn't stoop to that level. It's non-trivial for BFL to link this username to their customer database. Another mistake of mine for using this moniker.

 It's telling that they decided to punish me for calling their COO out on admitting these forums were not important to their business, along with other vitriolic nonsense. I guess that was another lie as apparently these forums are important enough to cancel disgruntled former customers' order, for expressing their displeasure.

 It's almost like they have something to hide, and I just can't get the image of Josh Zerlan as "The Soup Nazi" out of my mind.

 *shrugs*

Please do it for us. If you find something wrong, go ahead and sound off. No one is stopping you.

I LOLed. Haven't been to "zombocom" for years. I'm surprised it's still up. Don't forget to sign up for the newZletter!

http://zombo.com/ seems like a relevant link to post for some-odd reason.

Question for the anti-BFL crew:

Why are you guys not dog-piling on Avalon for what would seem to be more likely examples of unethical business practices?

Take for instance this guy's Avalon, which certainly appears to have been run for quite awhile before delivery.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2175901

Why does something as seemingly egregious as this, get a pass?

Yet, all hints and allegations against BFL are automatically assumed to be true.