Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders - page 49.

wrenchmonkey

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Quote from: Syke on May 17, 2013, 02:33:56 PM

Quote from: wrenchmonkey on May 17, 2013, 12:15:32 PM

I put my money where my mouth is. The day I saw confirmed customers receive Butterfly products was the day I ordered.

I'm curious, when do you think you'll receive your order?

I don't have any set expectation. I knew going in that ordering later would put me pretty far back in the queue. I'm not one of those people who expects that Bitcoin is a surefire way to make them rich.

It will show up when it shows up. That's how pre-orders (on anything besides video games) usually work. Thanksgiving? Christmas? Who knows? That's part of the excitement of doing a pre-order of a product that almost nobody has.

Which is why I didn't put all my eggs in one basket. I've got Avalon chips on order as well. My guess is that the Avalon chips show up before the BFL. However the Avalon chips consume much more power and have a higher $/hashing power ratio, so they'll take longer to break even, and will not remain as profitable for as long. It's impossible to predict the future of Bitcoin value, hardware improvements, difficulty change, etc. This is not a get-rich-quick scheme. It's not a 'sure bet'. If you want a sure thing, go greet people at wal-mart for $11/hour, or better yet, buy some stock. Wal-mart's not going away any time soon. Bitcoin could end overnight.

[Cue the people accusing me of being a Wal-Mart shill].

PuertoLibre

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Activity: 1890

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Quote from: Xian01 on May 17, 2013, 02:07:40 PM

If wrenchmonkey is calm, rational, and fact-filled, then I'm the Queen of England.

Any yet another person to add to my ignore list.

The BFL reality-distortion bubble is strong today.

Quote from: Henchman24 on May 17, 2013, 01:42:46 PM

Nah, you're not even close to being objective.
wrenchmonkey's posts have been calm, rational, logical and fact-filled.
He has systematically bitch-slapped the trolls on pretty much every exchange.
Your last sentence makes it clear you shouldn't be taken seriously anyway, poo-flinger. It's just another baseless jab, an attempt to provoke rather than debate.

At BFL they use quantum mechanics to make the impossible, possible. At times, there may be side effects.

ThatDGuy

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Quote from: wrenchmonkey on May 17, 2013, 02:07:35 PM

Quote from: k9quaint on May 17, 2013, 01:56:04 PM

Quote from: ThatDGuy on May 17, 2013, 01:38:10 PM

So the question is, if you had 100 5 gh/s units ready to sell for $247.00 each right now, and selling them would get you a huge chunk of the market share coming up, why would you be mining with them to generate ~$2,700 a day in Bitcoin?

500 GH/s will get your roughly 0.6% of the bitcoin network. The Bitcoin network is dominated by Avalon and ASICMiner. Their devices together could easily account for over 50% of the hash rate now that Avalon is shipping batch 2.

Also, BFL had to include twice as many chips as planned in order to get their advertised hash rate. If they are doing small batches of chips (100 or so) on an MPW prototype run, their chips are quite expensive ($50-100) and that would eat their margins (thus explaining their price hike on Jalapenos). If they are only making $50 per device, then $2700 a day looks good. Especially if they are in a cash crunch.

Personally, I don't think BFL has enough units working to make that much.

All the more reason that the implication that BFL is sitting on their hands--or a working farm of ASIC mining hardware--is absurd. They're caught up in the middle of an arms race, and if they don't ship soon, they are going to lose big. I can assure you that they know this better than anybody else. The last thing they want or need is to delay shipping to the point that people no longer need or want their product.

They are failing to hit targets, repeatedly. Nobody denies this. Understandably, people are frustrated. But being a business owner myself, I can assure you that it's always the most frustrating/stressful for the person who is under the gun to deliver.

Again, nobody is saying that BFL is perfect, or that it's not frustrating to not receive your product. Nobody's saying that BFL and their representatives haven't made mistakes, or dropped the ball in customer-relations.

The question at hand is whether it's reasonable to assume that a customer can go about actively seeking to trash a company (regardless how justified he may feel), and not expect that company to sever business relations with him. The answer is that you can't. This isn't the moral dilemma some people are making it out to be.

So much this. Anybody currently interested in making money in the developing ASIC market would also not going to be so shortsighted to think that a little bit of money mined today means anything compared to dominating the sales of ASICs right now. People are already throwing money at BFL, if they were able to ship at volume today, the amount of money being thrown at them would be absurd:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/asicminer-usb-group-buy-orders-closed-pay-for-extra-195052

This is one group buy for US/Canada for the USB ASICs. BTC895 ($110,085) worth were sold. Each one of these at 300 mh/s. At BTC2 each, and a conversion rate of $123 for a BTC we're looking at 1.22 mh/s per $.

Meanwhile, if BFL was able to ship their units today: 5000 mh/s for $275. This comes out to about 18.18 mh/s per $.

Nobody in their right mind would be buying from anywhere other than BFL if they could ship right now, and BFL would be out of their minds to -not- ship if they could.

Syke

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Quote from: wrenchmonkey on May 17, 2013, 12:15:32 PM

I put my money where my mouth is. The day I saw confirmed customers receive Butterfly products was the day I ordered.

I'm curious, when do you think you'll receive your order?

Henchman24

sr. member

Activity: 378

Merit: 250

Quote from: Xian01 on May 17, 2013, 02:07:40 PM

If wrenchmonkey is calm, rational, and fact-filled, then I'm the Queen of England.

Any yet another person to add to my ignore list.

The BFL reality-distortion bubble is strong today.

Quote from: Henchman24 on May 17, 2013, 01:42:46 PM

Nah, you're not even close to being objective.
wrenchmonkey's posts have been calm, rational, logical and fact-filled.
He has systematically bitch-slapped the trolls on pretty much every exchange.
Your last sentence makes it clear you shouldn't be taken seriously anyway, poo-flinger. It's just another baseless jab, an attempt to provoke rather than debate.

No worries. I realized you were a drama queen with a bullhorn quite awhile ago.

Being an asshole has consequences. *shrug* I'm sorry you seem impervious to learning that lesson.

Good day to you, sir. Your persecution complex certainly isn't going to affect my life in any way.

PuertoLibre

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Activity: 1890

Merit: 1003

Quote from: k9quaint on May 17, 2013, 12:05:49 PM

Name:   wrenchmonkey
Posts:   283
Position:   Sr. Member
Date Registered:   April 16, 2013, 01:09:04 AM
36 out of last 40 posts are defending BFL.

Here is you in the newbie forum talking about your order with BFL.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1932676

Quote from: Xian01 on May 17, 2013, 11:59:22 AM

Quote from: wrenchmonkey on May 17, 2013, 11:58:15 AM

Since you're working on that whole 'self-improvement' thing, this might be a good jumping off point.

Thanks Josh. At least one of us is trying.

Quote from: noedaRDH on May 17, 2013, 11:55:50 AM

Too bad you're not BFL. You're just some random joe blow on a forum, you're not a professional company, which is what BFL is aspiring to be. There's the difference.

In your world, customers would never complain about BFL and just sit there for another year, am I right?

You caught on very quickly.

I am worried.

(MASTER BFL Shill)

alfabitcoin

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Xian, how BFL found out your order details? I mean dude, what do you thinking when writing post in such tone if you knew they know your info and that they could easilly do this?

PuertoLibre

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Activity: 1890

Merit: 1003

Quote from: wrenchmonkey on May 17, 2013, 11:51:16 AM

Quote from: Tehfiend on May 17, 2013, 11:41:07 AM

Quote from: wrenchmonkey on May 17, 2013, 11:11:28 AM

Most of the time, however, that I've seen Josh lash out is toward trolls who come out of the gate swinging. Not toward people who can frame their questions and opinions in a respectful manner.

We must be reading different forums. You can simply look at my exchanges with Josh. Two or three times now he's replied to me with something along the lines of "your post is so dumb I don't know where to begin". He takes the time to reply to me to say I'm wrong but for some reason can never find where to begin and explain how I am wrong and never once addresses any of the points I make. I don't use petty insults and I post legitimate points based on facts that I take the time to quote and link sources for but all he can muster is insults in return. My points might be wrong but insulting me isn't going to show me the error of my ways.

That's because your posts ARE dumb, dude. You're an imbecile, in every sense of the word. You're intentionally obtuse. NOTHING will show you the error of your ways. You can't see the distinction between 'being frustrated' and 'being a troll'. Go figure that Josh also thinks you're an idiot. You ARE.

You must be Inaba in disguise....

Anyway, TehFiend to be my replacement. He will one day take over for me. Frizz and Smoothie are still maturing.

They must forge a troll post so strong, that even Sonny comes to defend the companies practice.

(all said in jest)

wrenchmonkey

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Activity: 224

Merit: 100

Quote from: Xian01 on May 17, 2013, 02:07:40 PM

If wrenchmonkey is calm, rational, and fact-filled, then I'm the Queen of England.

Any yet another person to add to my ignore list.

The BFL reality-distortion bubble is strong today.

Quote from: Henchman24 on May 17, 2013, 01:42:46 PM

Nah, you're not even close to being objective.
wrenchmonkey's posts have been calm, rational, logical and fact-filled.
He has systematically bitch-slapped the trolls on pretty much every exchange.
Your last sentence makes it clear you shouldn't be taken seriously anyway, poo-flinger. It's just another baseless jab, an attempt to provoke rather than debate.

You're the Queen of something, that's for sure. Cheesy

PuertoLibre

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Activity: 1890

Merit: 1003

Quote from: wrenchmonkey on May 17, 2013, 11:23:00 AM

Quote from: Xian01 on May 17, 2013, 11:16:12 AM

Quote from: Henchman24 on May 17, 2013, 10:58:54 AM

Quote from: Xian01 on May 17, 2013, 10:38:49 AM

So who is the bigger douche here ?

You are. Hands down. Not even close.

Noted. Hey, I'll be the first to admit I can be an asshole, but I'm working on getting better.

Everyone has a breaking point, and I obviously hit mine with respect to this transaction.

And it takes a big person to admit that.

However, your admission seems hollow when it's prefaced by several pages of persecution complex, and attempts at using bureaucratic agencies to exact your vengeance. Undecided

In light of all this, do you think he shouldn't have? What do you think he should have done. Provide an alternative.

The one way to bring down a shill is simply to ask them what the alternative is. When they provide a laughable answer like "bend over"...then you know they are deluded.

Xian01

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Activity: 1652

Merit: 1067

Christian Antkow

If wrenchmonkey is calm, rational, and fact-filled, then I'm the Queen of England.

And yet another person to add to my ignore list.

The BFL reality-distortion bubble is strong today.

Quote from: Henchman24 on May 17, 2013, 01:42:46 PM

Nah, you're not even close to being objective.
wrenchmonkey's posts have been calm, rational, logical and fact-filled.
He has systematically bitch-slapped the trolls on pretty much every exchange.
Your last sentence makes it clear you shouldn't be taken seriously anyway, poo-flinger. It's just another baseless jab, an attempt to provoke rather than debate.

wrenchmonkey

full member

Activity: 224

Merit: 100

Quote from: k9quaint on May 17, 2013, 01:56:04 PM

Quote from: ThatDGuy on May 17, 2013, 01:38:10 PM

So the question is, if you had 100 5 gh/s units ready to sell for $247.00 each right now, and selling them would get you a huge chunk of the market share coming up, why would you be mining with them to generate ~$2,700 a day in Bitcoin?

500 GH/s will get your roughly 0.6% of the bitcoin network. The Bitcoin network is dominated by Avalon and ASICMiner. Their devices together could easily account for over 50% of the hash rate now that Avalon is shipping batch 2.

Also, BFL had to include twice as many chips as planned in order to get their advertised hash rate. If they are doing small batches of chips (100 or so) on an MPW prototype run, their chips are quite expensive ($50-100) and that would eat their margins (thus explaining their price hike on Jalapenos). If they are only making $50 per device, then $2700 a day looks good. Especially if they are in a cash crunch.

Personally, I don't think BFL has enough units working to make that much.

All the more reason that the implication that BFL is sitting on their hands--or a working farm of ASIC mining hardware--is absurd. They're caught up in the middle of an arms race, and if they don't ship soon, they are going to lose big. I can assure you that they know this better than anybody else. The last thing they want or need is to delay shipping to the point that people no longer need or want their product.

They are failing to hit targets, repeatedly. Nobody denies this. Understandably, people are frustrated. But being a business owner myself, I can assure you that it's always the most frustrating/stressful for the person who is under the gun to deliver.

Again, nobody is saying that BFL is perfect, or that it's not frustrating to not receive your product. Nobody's saying that BFL and their representatives haven't made mistakes, or dropped the ball in customer-relations.

The question at hand is whether it's reasonable to assume that a customer can go about actively seeking to trash a company (regardless how justified he may feel), and not expect that company to sever business relations with him. The answer is that you can't. This isn't the moral dilemma some people are making it out to be.

Henchman24

sr. member

Activity: 378

Merit: 250

Quote from: KGambler on May 17, 2013, 01:48:18 PM

Quote from: Henchman24 on May 17, 2013, 01:42:46 PM

Quote from: KGambler on May 17, 2013, 01:36:48 PM

One thing is for sure, putting wrenchmonkey on ignore is the way to go. He's filled this thread with nonsense, bad advice and worse "logic". And it's pretty likely he has some kind of personal attachment to BFL.

Nah, you're not even close to being objective.

wrenchmonkey's posts have been calm, rational, logical and fact-filled.

He has systematically bitch-slapped the trolls on pretty much every exchange.

Your last sentence makes it clear you shouldn't be taken seriously anyway, poo-flinger. It's just another baseless jab, an attempt to provoke rather than debate.

"Trolls"? What are you even talking about? What "trolls"? People who don't trust a company which has lied repeatedly and outrageously are all "trolls"? And the company just happens to be run by a convicted con artist... I guess this entire board is just "trolls". Makes sense.

He has not been calm, nor rational, nor logical. He's has been a vindictive, condescending D-bag. He's lied and mislead. His opinions on how to conduct a business are infantile. It's small wonder that people actually suspect he is Josh Zerlan.

The distinction between troll and validly frustrated customer has been made many times, even in this very thread. I'm not about to rehash that with you.

Obviously I do not agree with the rest of your spew.

PuertoLibre

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Activity: 1890

Merit: 1003

Quote from: Xian01 on May 17, 2013, 10:31:29 AM

$4,698.00 credited to my Paypal account, and moved out to my bank.

What an absolutely incredible ride. Bravo Butterfly Labs.

You know who I really feel bad for ? It's Jody Sad

She's on the front line of all this, just doing as she's told.

Now... it's time to buy some popcorn with that refund money.

Consider yourself lucky...you got out before the collapse. (future prediction of mine)

wrenchmonkey

full member

Activity: 224

Merit: 100

Quote from: KGambler on May 17, 2013, 01:48:18 PM

Quote from: Henchman24 on May 17, 2013, 01:42:46 PM

Quote from: KGambler on May 17, 2013, 01:36:48 PM

One thing is for sure, putting wrenchmonkey on ignore is the way to go. He's filled this thread with nonsense, bad advice and worse "logic". And it's pretty likely he has some kind of personal attachment to BFL.

Nah, you're not even close to being objective.

wrenchmonkey's posts have been calm, rational, logical and fact-filled.

He has systematically bitch-slapped the trolls on pretty much every exchange.

Your last sentence makes it clear you shouldn't be taken seriously anyway, poo-flinger. It's just another baseless jab, an attempt to provoke rather than debate.

"Trolls"? What are you even talking about? What "trolls"? People who don't trust a company which has lied repeatedly and outrageously are all "trolls"? And the company just happens to be run by a convicted con artist... I guess this entire board is just "trolls". Makes sense.

He has not been calm, nor rational, nor logical. He's has been a vindictive, condescending D-bag. He's lied and mislead. His opinions on how to conduct a business are infantile. It's small wonder that people actually suspect he is Josh Zerlan.

No, the trolls are the people who have made a habit of trashing BFL. I don't know how many times I can say this. This thread is now over 14 pages, which appears to be too much for some people to read/comprehend, before diving in.

When have I lost my calm? What have I said that's not rational or logical?

I'm not being vindictive, though I agree with the assessment of being condescending. Some people are just so incapable of rational conversation, I just have to give them a little slap.

It's like trying to have a discussion with a room full of distracted 6-year-olds, who barely speak english, and won't stop picking their butts. The difference being, slapping 6-year-olds is frowned upon. Textual bitch-slapping of man-children is still kosher, however. Wink

When have I "lied and mislead"? Having an opinion that differs from yours is not "lying" or "misleading".

k9quaint

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Merit: 1000

Quote from: ThatDGuy on May 17, 2013, 01:38:10 PM

So the question is, if you had 100 5 gh/s units ready to sell for $247.00 each right now, and selling them would get you a huge chunk of the market share coming up, why would you be mining with them to generate ~$2,700 a day in Bitcoin?

500 GH/s will get your roughly 0.6% of the bitcoin network. The Bitcoin network is dominated by Avalon and ASICMiner. Their devices together could easily account for over 50% of the hash rate now that Avalon is shipping batch 2.

Also, BFL had to include twice as many chips as planned in order to get their advertised hash rate. If they are doing small batches of chips (100 or so) on an MPW prototype run, their chips are quite expensive ($50-100) and that would eat their margins (thus explaining their price hike on Jalapenos). If they are only making $50 per device, then $2700 a day looks good. Especially if they are in a cash crunch.

Personally, I don't think BFL has enough units working to make that much.

KGambler

full member

Activity: 236

Merit: 100

Quote from: Henchman24 on May 17, 2013, 01:42:46 PM

Quote from: KGambler on May 17, 2013, 01:36:48 PM

One thing is for sure, putting wrenchmonkey on ignore is the way to go. He's filled this thread with nonsense, bad advice and worse "logic". And it's pretty likely he has some kind of personal attachment to BFL.

Nah, you're not even close to being objective.

wrenchmonkey's posts have been calm, rational, logical and fact-filled.

He has systematically bitch-slapped the trolls on pretty much every exchange.

Your last sentence makes it clear you shouldn't be taken seriously anyway, poo-flinger. It's just another baseless jab, an attempt to provoke rather than debate.

"Trolls"? What are you even talking about? What "trolls"? People who don't trust a company which has lied repeatedly and outrageously are all "trolls"? And the company just happens to be run by a convicted con artist... I guess this entire board is just "trolls". Makes sense.

He has not been calm, nor rational, nor logical. He's has been a vindictive, condescending D-bag. He's lied and mislead. His opinions on how to conduct a business are infantile. It's small wonder that people actually suspect he is Josh Zerlan.

erschiessen

sr. member

Activity: 322

Merit: 250

The real issue is the lack of business acumen from BFL.
Why didn't they hire a real friggin ASIC design engineer?
They had $Millions$ for almost a whole friggin year with absolutely very little to show for the investment of thousands of customers.

They worry about the income stream more than the product.
If they just built the friggin product, the income stream would be there in full force.

It shows, IMO, that the scammers are in charge, they can't change their spots.
'"F" the customers, where is our next batch of suckers going to come from if folks like these tards at Bitcointalk keep acting all uppity and want us to actually make shit?'

Henchman24

sr. member

Activity: 378

Merit: 250

Quote from: KGambler on May 17, 2013, 01:36:48 PM

One thing is for sure, putting wrenchmonkey on ignore is the way to go. He's filled this thread with nonsense, bad advice and worse "logic". And it's pretty likely he has some kind of personal attachment to BFL.

Nah, you're not even close to being objective.

wrenchmonkey's posts have been calm, rational, logical and fact-filled.

He has systematically bitch-slapped the trolls on pretty much every exchange.

Your last sentence makes it clear you shouldn't be taken seriously anyway, poo-flinger. It's just another baseless jab, an attempt to provoke rather than debate.

KGambler

full member

Activity: 236

Merit: 100

Quote from: ThatDGuy on May 17, 2013, 01:38:10 PM

Quote from: Xian01 on May 17, 2013, 01:25:13 PM

Quote from: SLok on May 17, 2013, 01:18:34 PM

Let me fix that for you...

Fair enough. A misinterpretation on my part. I find the accusation that BFL is mining with their own hardware right now for profit as a bit hard to believe. That would require them to have volume of product to ship with; something they seemingly do not have yet, nor are in a position to divulge more accurate shipping details to their customers.

If they want to mine with all their ASICs and only trickle them out to customers, there is nothing stopping them I suppose.

BFL has plenty of motivation to ship their product instead of mine with them: future profits.

ASICMINER is killing it right now because of the time delays that BFL has already incurred. This has lost BFL sales and future profits. people are paying 2BTC a pop for USB miners that do 300 MH/s right now.

Avalon continues to ship as well, and are now shipping their chips which people are ordering on their own to build custom ASIC units. 2-3 months and there will be users on this forum that are likely able to produce them. Already and surely by then there will be plenty of people who can get refunds and can go this route.

Meanwhile if BFL actually was able to ship at volume they would have a huge advantage and every $ or BTC going to these companies and folks over the next 6 months would be largely going to them.

So the question is, if you had 100 5 gh/s units ready to sell for $247.00 each right now, and selling them would get you a huge chunk of the market share coming up, why would you be mining with them to generate ~$2,700 a day in Bitcoin?

If they don't ship soon, they will be out of business.

Topic: Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders - page 49. (Read 59168 times)