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Topic: Butterfly Labs November Update (ASIC Chips are "flawed". Delays.) - page 7. (Read 24693 times)

legendary
Activity: 1458
Merit: 1006
I had venture capitalists invest in me once for about 18 years. Called em Mom and Dad. Good times. Good times.

Quote from: Affidavit for Extradition Warrant — USA vs. Vleisides

A joint investigation involving the IRS-CID and the United States Postal Inspection Service (USPIS), revealed that from at least 1990 through July 2006, SONNY VLEISIDES, James Ray Houston, Dennis Emmett, William Cloud, Henry Walther, Scott Henry Walther, and others committed a massive international lottery scam using the following company names: Shamrock Agency, German Swiss Group, World Expert Fund, Mutual Medical Insurance Co, Old Amsterdam Trust Co, Euro American Fax Co, European Union Commission, EU American Payment Co, Global Search Network, North American Foreign Payments Services, Wor'dwide Verification Service, and others. VLEISIDES ran the scheme along with Houston and Emmett. VLEISIDES, Houston and Emmett, who were all located in Costa Rica, worked with mailing houses which, at the direction of VLEISIDES, Houston, and Emmett, sent out tens of thousands of mailings to victims in the United States, many of whom were elderly. The mailings contained false statements, half truths, and omissions, and induced the victims to participate in various international lotteries, falsely stating that if the victims participated, they were guaranteed to win or had a very good chance to win. The mailings directed the victims to send their money to Ireland, at d the Netherlands, among other locations, where William Cloud had set up addresses with commercial mail receiving agencies and individuals to forward the money, eventually, back to the United States. After receipt at the commercial mail receiving agencies, the victims' money was sent to Henry Walther, who, along with his son Scott Henry Walther, deposited the money into various bank accounts and then distributed it as directed by VLEISIDES, Houston, and Emmett. Some of the money was spent on furthering the criminal activity. Some of the money was paid out to victims in small-dollar checks that the co-schemers misrepresented to be lottery winnings. The rest of the money was paid out to the co-schemers and others for their own use. VLEISIDES and the other defendants did not buy any lottery tickets, and the vast majority of the victims lost the money they sent. The total loss from the scheme is in excess of $19 million.

...

An analysis was done on approximately twenty of the bank accounts established in the United States at the direction of VLEISIDES and his co-schemers. The analysis revealed, in summary, that the victims' money was first deposited into accounts established by the co-schemers at numerous banks in accounts with names that sound like official lotteries: SHAMROCK AGENCY, WORLD EXPERT, OLD AMSTERDAM, GERMAN SWISS, and EUC. (Hereinafter, accounts at this first layer will be referred to as "Deposit Accounts.") The co-schemers obtained over $19 million from tens of thousands of victims and deposited them into these accounts. After the co-schemers deposited the victims' money into the Deposit Accounts, they transferred the money to the next layer of accounts, hereinafter referred to as "Payment Accounts." These accounts were in names that included NORTH AMERICAN PAYMENT and EU PAYMENT SERVICE. From the Payment Accounts, the co-schemers wrote checks represented as winnings and sent them back to the victims. The amount of the alleged "winnings" was far less than the amount the victims sent in - for the over $19 million going into the accounts from victims, only approximately 20% was sent back to victims in the form of "winning" checks. The co-schemers transferred some of the money from the Deposit Accounts and Payment Accounts to the next layer of accounts, which will hereinafter be referred to as "Syphon Accounts." The co-schemers wrote checks (or used wire transfers) from the Lottery Accounts and the Payment Accounts to the Syphon Accounts, which were in names that included WESTERN INTERNET, BUTTERFIELD, CARNEGIE and HENRY WALTHER ATTORNEY WIRE ACCOUNT. Money from the Syphon Accounts was used to continue the scheme by paying scheme expenses, as well as to provide benefits to the co-schemers. The co-schemers also took money at each layer in the form of checks to cash, checks to themselves, or checks to the payment of personal or scheme expenses.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/106417808/Affidavit-for-Extradition-Warrant


Venture Capital!

No venture capitalist would touch this with a ten foot pole. That much is completely obvious.

The "private equity group" is either money from the nineteen-million-dollar scam or a flat out lie.

Quote
Note on Due Diligence in Venture Capital

Investment Potential – Once the investment proposal is deemed to “fit” with the
philosophy of the firm, a screening is conducted to test the viability of the deal.
Although screening is unique to a particular firm’s needs, there are some common
threads that a firm evaluates.
• Management – Generally speaking, one of the most important criteria in the
screening process is the quality of management. In real estate it is often said
that the three most important words are “location, location, location.” In
evaluating a business, many venture firms will proclaim the three most
important words to be “people, people, people."

http://mba.tuck.dartmouth.edu/pecenter/research/pdfs/due_diligence.pdf
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
LTC
chips don't exist?
...
add clock buffers.

What Nasser means is that over a certain clock frequency chips start to behave erratic and they fix it by adding clock buffers. There are steps in ASIC design which should prevent this, however. Even so, it's hard to decide who's fault is. I bet BFL consider its foundry fault.
legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1005
chips don't exist?

add clock buffers.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
Apparently even people within BFL itself don't keep Josh updated on what's happening.  According to Nasser, the chips are not flawed and the delay is being caused by BFL making changes.

Quote
There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further. The improve in noise resistance was our real goal (average frequency increase across a full wafer can be a bi-product). The decision was made to increase the near 100% chance of success even more.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/437-asic-update-26-november-2012-a-4.html#post6311


I liked the "chips were flawed" excuse better.  It makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than "we decided to add clock buffers".

If I were BFL, and I had chips that hashed, I would ship them out the door first thing.  Leave the performance optimizations for subsequent generations.  I think that's what their customers would prefer.

It's not clear to me whether Nasser is talking about revising the ASIC chips themselves, or if he is referring to a board-level change.
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
I had venture capitalists invest in me once for about 18 years. Called em Mom and Dad. Good times. Good times.

Quote from: Affidavit for Extradition Warrant — USA vs. Vleisides

A joint investigation involving the IRS-CID and the United States Postal Inspection Service (USPIS), revealed that from at least 1990 through July 2006, SONNY VLEISIDES, James Ray Houston, Dennis Emmett, William Cloud, Henry Walther, Scott Henry Walther, and others committed a massive international lottery scam using the following company names: Shamrock Agency, German Swiss Group, World Expert Fund, Mutual Medical Insurance Co, Old Amsterdam Trust Co, Euro American Fax Co, European Union Commission, EU American Payment Co, Global Search Network, North American Foreign Payments Services, Wor'dwide Verification Service, and others. VLEISIDES ran the scheme along with Houston and Emmett. VLEISIDES, Houston and Emmett, who were all located in Costa Rica, worked with mailing houses which, at the direction of VLEISIDES, Houston, and Emmett, sent out tens of thousands of mailings to victims in the United States, many of whom were elderly. The mailings contained false statements, half truths, and omissions, and induced the victims to participate in various international lotteries, falsely stating that if the victims participated, they were guaranteed to win or had a very good chance to win. The mailings directed the victims to send their money to Ireland, at d the Netherlands, among other locations, where William Cloud had set up addresses with commercial mail receiving agencies and individuals to forward the money, eventually, back to the United States. After receipt at the commercial mail receiving agencies, the victims' money was sent to Henry Walther, who, along with his son Scott Henry Walther, deposited the money into various bank accounts and then distributed it as directed by VLEISIDES, Houston, and Emmett. Some of the money was spent on furthering the criminal activity. Some of the money was paid out to victims in small-dollar checks that the co-schemers misrepresented to be lottery winnings. The rest of the money was paid out to the co-schemers and others for their own use. VLEISIDES and the other defendants did not buy any lottery tickets, and the vast majority of the victims lost the money they sent. The total loss from the scheme is in excess of $19 million.

...

An analysis was done on approximately twenty of the bank accounts established in the United States at the direction of VLEISIDES and his co-schemers. The analysis revealed, in summary, that the victims' money was first deposited into accounts established by the co-schemers at numerous banks in accounts with names that sound like official lotteries: SHAMROCK AGENCY, WORLD EXPERT, OLD AMSTERDAM, GERMAN SWISS, and EUC. (Hereinafter, accounts at this first layer will be referred to as "Deposit Accounts.") The co-schemers obtained over $19 million from tens of thousands of victims and deposited them into these accounts. After the co-schemers deposited the victims' money into the Deposit Accounts, they transferred the money to the next layer of accounts, hereinafter referred to as "Payment Accounts." These accounts were in names that included NORTH AMERICAN PAYMENT and EU PAYMENT SERVICE. From the Payment Accounts, the co-schemers wrote checks represented as winnings and sent them back to the victims. The amount of the alleged "winnings" was far less than the amount the victims sent in - for the over $19 million going into the accounts from victims, only approximately 20% was sent back to victims in the form of "winning" checks. The co-schemers transferred some of the money from the Deposit Accounts and Payment Accounts to the next layer of accounts, which will hereinafter be referred to as "Syphon Accounts." The co-schemers wrote checks (or used wire transfers) from the Lottery Accounts and the Payment Accounts to the Syphon Accounts, which were in names that included WESTERN INTERNET, BUTTERFIELD, CARNEGIE and HENRY WALTHER ATTORNEY WIRE ACCOUNT. Money from the Syphon Accounts was used to continue the scheme by paying scheme expenses, as well as to provide benefits to the co-schemers. The co-schemers also took money at each layer in the form of checks to cash, checks to themselves, or checks to the payment of personal or scheme expenses.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/106417808/Affidavit-for-Extradition-Warrant


Venture Capital!
hero member
Activity: 952
Merit: 1009
I had venture capitalists invest in me once for about 18 years. Called em Mom and Dad. Good times. Good times.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
Butterfly Labs, INC. is accepting pre-orders for ASIC based products, expected to begin shipping in late October or early November 2012.

Which is why they set January 1st 2013 as the refund start date, ~30 days from the November window.

What refund? They spent all (most) money on (unsuccessful?? ) ASIC project. If they fail to produce hardware to January 1st 2013 , you forget about the refund. Only hope that they will succeed. No bank will give them a loan.

FALSE!

They have investors that gave them VC to perform work, they do not get to recognize the revenue (be able to spend it) in the pre-order account for any order until they ship the product for that order. They went into debt, they hope to pay it off after shipping plus a profit. Either way customers are entitled to a product or refund before the investors are allowed to collect in the event of a bankruptcy.

IIRC, IANAL, URADS

Try to troll some more, your attempts are humorous, if futile.
hero member
Activity: 952
Merit: 1009

There is someone who claims to be buying MORE BFL products after announcement of delays, because they were at least telling them something. Reputation is definitely worth something.

Yeah, but according to the guy's photostream, he's pretty much piss drunk all day everyday, so he's probably not the most sensible guy anyway.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
BFL's reputation really does not matter , we already buy, and those who didn't, they would not do anyway until our orders were shipped.

They already had a bad reputation for FPGA delays and didn't mind

Request your money back by mistrust seems absurd, if you don't trust in they delivery your order, why would you trust they send you money back?

We just have to be patient


Not really true, reputation of course matters. Both for retaining customers (as a US based business they don't get to just "not refund" with no consequences, even if it might be onerous to follow up on), and gaining new orders, to whit:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/437-asic-update-26-november-2012-a-2.html#

There is someone who claims to be buying MORE BFL products after announcement of delays, because they were at least telling them something. Reputation is definitely worth something.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
It's more than ridiculous that Josh is not being kept informed of things like this.

Alternatively, the chips are in fact duds and the announcement was a feeler, BFL wanted to see just how well it shall be received. In this perspective they decided it's not being received well at all.

Duh.

But I am sure that this has nothing to do with the unexplained increase in specs which happened just about the time competition was coming out with better efficiency promises. That surely was legitimate.

Duh.

Request your money back by mistrust seems absurd, if you don't trust in they delivery your order, why would you trust they send you money back?

It's a classical run. If you get your refund order in fast you have a hope of being repaid before too many other people ask for a refund and they realize they're fucked.
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1000
BFL's reputation really does not matter , we already buy, and those who didn't, they would not do anyway until our orders were shipped.

They already had a bad reputation for FPGA delays and didn't mind

Request your money back by mistrust seems absurd, if you don't trust in they delivery your order, why would you trust they send you money back?

We just have to be patient
hero member
Activity: 1078
Merit: 502
I think I believe the first reason.

The second is a lie.



(It's only what my brain thinks)
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Apparently even people within BFL itself don't keep Josh updated on what's happening.  According to Nasser, the chips are not flawed and the delay is being caused by BFL making changes.

Quote
There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further. The improve in noise resistance was our real goal (average frequency increase across a full wafer can be a bi-product). The decision was made to increase the near 100% chance of success even more.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/437-asic-update-26-november-2012-a-4.html#post6311

It's more than ridiculous that Josh is not being kept informed of things like this.  BFL's a small enterprise and even people whose role is purely technical must be aware that with the slip in shipping dates customers want both explanations of what's happening and information about when they can really expect to receive their ASICs.



Information about the flawed chips caused such a fuss and doing a bad reputation BFL. The truth was uncomfortable so they had to change it.  Funny discrediting Smiley And then people wonder why others do not trust them... I think there is no need now to explain.
sr. member
Activity: 330
Merit: 250
@davidspitzer  Hilarious! Cheesy
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
Apparently even people within BFL itself don't keep Josh updated on what's happening.  According to Nasser, the chips are not flawed and the delay is being caused by BFL making changes.

Quote
There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further. The improve in noise resistance was our real goal (average frequency increase across a full wafer can be a bi-product). The decision was made to increase the near 100% chance of success even more.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/437-asic-update-26-november-2012-a-4.html#post6311

It's more than ridiculous that Josh is not being kept informed of things like this.  BFL's a small enterprise and even people whose role is purely technical must be aware that with the slip in shipping dates customers want both explanations of what's happening and information about when they can really expect to receive their ASICs.

hero member
Activity: 1078
Merit: 502
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
End of message
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
I was wrong, they will wait until 1BTC be worth 1000 $, then a refund will be possible  Wink

Dude they get their Bicoin payments through Bitpay, which means they never actually accept a Bitcoin. All is converted to U.S. dollars before it enters their account.

Damn, I thought it would be any chance  Wink
But they can buy 5000BTC and withhold the refund   Wink   Or build a large FPGA mine,  or maybe they already have one, they gathered a lot of money...  Wink (subtle conspiracy theory Wink )
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1000
DiabloMiner author
meaningless bullshit removed

Here's the actual list:

1. The CEO is a convicted felon who
1.a. Is in probation/supervised release.
1.b. Is prohibited by the terms of his deal from doing a number of things BFL is doing, such as taking money from people.
1.c. Failed to disclose this; once discovered by 3rd parties he made a half-assed statement about "the mean government". Promised post with further details "over the weekend", never materialized.

This was explained away on the vague theory that while convicted "he wasn't really guilty" and while the CEO "he doesn't really have anything to do with the company".

2. BFL is a company that
2.a. Consistently made promises which were then not kept, such as to the time of delivery (blown in the past by 4 months +) and specifications of the items delivered (significantly larger power consumption).
2.b. Consistently takes money from perspective customers in exchange for products that do not actually exist. These don't constitute pre-orders, even if BFL calls them that, but loans to the company.

This was never explained other than "doing things is hard".

3. BFL PR is a guy who
3.a. Is a loudmouth just like I am, except he makes a lot less sense, rarely has a point and also lacks tits.

Enjoy.

(And yes, my personal opinion is that dud run = bankruptcy.)

I'll quote this for the people that ignore you and boobies Smiley

I LOVE BOOBIES

-- Signed, The Male League to Promote Boobies, 301st Tit Watching Corps
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