Topic: Can you answer a couple of questions to a potential bitcoin buyer? (Read 1704 times)

and if he is really a potential buyer then he will never seek for too much answer or even that rational answer because for you to be called investing potentially meaning you have already idea of what is the market and what are the possibilities and yes you only need to trust that market and buy what you can afford to lose.
that is the ethics of investing in all fields and not only in Bitcoin and in altcoins but in all aspects .

I'm sure you've read and seen real successful people in Bitcoin, anyone who wants to know Bitcoin or who is directly involved with it, surely they know the true meaning of Bitcoin, there is no element of coercion for every human being to buy Bitcoin, you are sure to continue as for the opposite, don't do it.

Where's Antithesis when the Russians needed him the most?

You eat food thanks to people that produced it and then gave it up for membership in bitcoin community. You pay bills thanks to people that are willing to trade their ownership for membership. Storing and transferring membership identifications in bitcoin community is possible because miners give up their ownership of electricity in order get the same identifications. Generally, a small piece of plastic or stiff paper is used to identify you are a member of a group, organization or community. Here, a digital number is used for that purpose. As the community members, you organize events, join on social media to talk about economics, conspiracy theories about the banks, and an utopian society. You think of yourselves as a superior to non-members. You live in an illusion that you own a revolutionary money or assets with supernatural features. You are dreaming of becoming rich. Your have feelings of being special, purposeful, taken care of, free. The latter reminds me of Visualize - Self-Realization Center Church, a philosophic and spiritual cult, led by Bret Stiles. (from the series The mentalist)

What you all have in common is that you were fooled into believing that you participated in an economic transaction. But you didn't. An economic transaction is the exchange of ownerships. You on the other hand exchanged ownership for membership. Basically you gave up something for nothing given the membership status grants you no benefits, unlike for e g. a club membership. The more things you gave up the higher is the rating in the community that you earned, that is, you got bigger number. In a nutshell, bitcoin is the good old method to transfer wealth from the masses to the few. It's just that it is dressed up in a new uniform.

So, stop with this endless rants of yours. You cannot fool anyone here.

i eat food thanks to bitcoin.
i pay bills thanks to bitcoin.
i dont need to touch fiat to achieve this.

this case has been true for loads of people even as far back as 2010 when laszlo got pizza thanks to paying bitcoin in the frist example of bitcoin being used to buy real goods/services. laszlo did not need to touch fiat. he just needed to pay a bitcoin address some bitcoin, wait to open his front door and see a pizza delivery guy turn up
since then there are hundreds of thousands of merchants selling goods and services, millions of people using it to buy goods and services
millions of people using it for other uses too

the price of bitcoin in 2010 was: 10,000btc for ~$41 (1btc=~$0.0041c)
now its price is 1btc=~$41,000

the reason for the 10,000,000x cost of acquisition value difference is simple.
its become 10,000,000x more expensive to mine bitcoin

imagine it this way
114 cpu's were mining in 2010
114 cpu at a 90w electric consumption =10.26kw/h= 246.24kwh a day
at 12 cent/kw = $29.55 (combined mining cost for everyone to share 7200coin daily mined coins)
which is $0.0041c per btc acquisition value at american residential electric rate

imagine it this way
1.6m asics at $12k hardware cost each.  $19,200,000,000
which spread hardware over 2 years = hard ware cost $29,223.74/btc for hardware
then we calculate the electric
1.6m asics at 3.25kwh =5,200,000kw/h
at us residential rate of 12cent(as used above) = $624,000 an hour = $16,640/btc
hardware+electric=$45,863.74 cost to mine at home in america

meaning hobby bitcoin miners prefer to buy rather than mine right now

at K'stan industrial rate of 4cent = $208,000 an hour = $5,546.67/btc
hardware+electric=$34,770.41 cost to mine at a kazahkstan asic farm

meaning kazahkstan mining farms prefer to mine rather than buy

you can actually look up the electric rate of different countries and calculate the costs. and work out which countries prefer to buy or mine.

so calculating the economic value is actually easy.
as for the utility value(features) which people want to acquire it. there are many things you can do with bitcoin and many people have many reasons. its not just to hoard to hedge against inflation.

people can actually buy things with it. i dont mean just swap for fiat. i mean actually buy (goods and services) without needing to touch fiat in the process. people choose to use bitcoin as oppose to other mediums. because bitcoin has features that they cant get in other mediums

features such as not needing to apply for an account needing to submit their name, home address, social security numbers. they just create a public key. easy. free, no registration required.
they can send funds internationally far cheaper then international fiat wire transfer
the recipient doesnt need documented ID to receive funds
it can be used to set up 'trust funds' without lawyers

using a bank note, you cant make a trust without lawyers and bank managers authorisation. sure you can stick it under a mattress and tell your wife and kids to only use the bank note after your death. but thats emotional trust. not a ruled 'trust'.

in bitcoin you just set up a multisig. no registration required no documented ID, no lawyers

it can be used to do many other things(some listed many posts ago)

Well, you can use semantic tricks but that means nothing. Holding a record and owning something are two entirely different things. When you buy a stock you hold a record of name and quantity, but you own capital or equity. When you buy bitcoin you hold a record of name and number but own nothing. If I would write down my name and "1,000,000 ounces of gold" next to it, I would hold a record of name and number, but I would own nothing. You can write down whatever record you want. Either you or Satoshi. You can put that record on digital or paper media. But you would still own nothing. By buying bitcoin you gave up your ownership of something and become member of bitcoin community. Membership in this community is identified via numbers. Even if you buy all the membership identifications, you would still own nothing. You would simply be the holder of a number "18,000,000". And you're not even able to eat this. That is how this membership is worthless. Having all the bitcoins in the world, but not even being able to eat.

Wrong. You can't own Bitcoin and "nothing" at the same time. That's an oxymoron. Whether it's something in digital or some other form is irrelevant. Whether you see any value in it or not is irrelevant as well. You obviously own "something" so your argument is invalid.


Based on what facts? As I have said before, there was nothing like Bitcoin before it, and that is an undeniable fact, so you cannot arbitrarily compare it to anything that existed before.


That's your opinion, and I accept it even if I don't agree with it. So when do you think this will happen? In five years? In fifty years? In our lifetimes? In ten generations? When the human race becomes extinct? When the sun becomes a supernova??

My goal is not to change people's behavior. Once they invested in something, people are driven by fear or greed and no amount of rational arguments or facts can help them. My goal is simply to present the truth. How will people handle the truth it's up to them.
It's not my opinion that once you enter bitcoin system you own nothing. And it's not my opinion that all systems where you own nothing by being member, collapse eventually. The facts that the record of membership is currently digital, decentralized, traded on the market mean nothing. People eventually stop trading their ownership of something for a mere membership status.

Because they can't give you a valid answer. They're so sure it can be shut down, that they don't care how's going to happen. They're saying that Bitcoin is meaningless, I answered on why that's false, they denied it. They're saying that everyone can create bitcoins for free, I explained why this is also wrong, including phenomena like consensus, they also denied it. They're saying that Bitcoin is ponzi, I cleared up twice why that's a false assertion, but they disagree.

All these have been repeatedly told to them by everyone. They even disagree that two individuals can deal with their medium of exchange, outside this debt-based utopia. There's nothing left, admit you're biased towards it and that no one can change your mind...

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And yeah, it turns out they've being saying the same shit since 2017, under another pseudonym. No idea what they're trying to achieve.

Your entire statement here is based only on your opinion and has no foundation in facts. You cannot call that a truism. I asked you to explain the simple premise upon which you base your conclusion, but you can't even do that, instead you are deflecting and avoiding the simple question. Why is that?

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No. It's too late for him! He's been ranting the same shit since 2017. A smart man would have moved on by now, but apparently his head cannot fathom the concept of letting go of stuff and that he might be wrong.  

Let's say what you just said was true for a moment. What's your solution? You expect everybody to sell their bitcoins? As you see it is not collapsing but getting only bigger.

Here is a good reason which'll make you buy: Just participate so you can also make money. You don't even have to buy a "whole" bitcoin to participate. You can use 1% of your wealth. Dump it when it becomes 2%. You will be risking only 1% of your total wealth.

No matter how many times you scream that "crypto has no value", "it is worthless" bla bla bla, the markets don't give af. The price tag for a coin is still $42k. You can either join, or you can cry all you want. Nobody really cares. If you are so sure about that crypto has no value, why don't you short it anyway?

Have fun staying poor.

Yes, people behave stupid. That's why we have ponzi-like schemes and market bubbles. But that's off topic. Here we talk about the fact that by holding bitcoin you own nothing. Regardless if price of a particular stock is hundred times above it's real value that fact won't change. And of course, marketcap of bitcoin is the stupidest concept in this whole fantasy kingdom. There's zero capital owned by bitcoin holders, so zero shares in capital multiplied by markt price gives zero.

i gotta laugh

there have been people that went to retail closing down sales and literally bought 100k of their branded plastic carrier bags, treating them as a collectable(after the brand was closed) by selling a few of them for $10 each, thus valuing their 'stock' at $1m even though the actual cost was just $1k

as long as you can pretend you are able to sell all products in a year at a given price you pretend exists. you can pretend anything as part of the inventory section of capital valuation.

..
take elon musk. supposedly he is worth over $1trillion.. but do you think he could ever be able to scrape together $1trillion in only 365 days if he was requested to.. no way will he be able to.

alot of people think bitcoins marketcap means something.. it doesnt
its just a multiplication of the current price of a coin multiplied by how many coins there are.  capital is not based on anything real. so dont think that 'capital' is meaningful. its not.. its just math.
same with any company, stock, share

You first.

The level of your reality denial is stunning. Stock holder own capital. Capital is not nothing. Stop flogging a dead horse.

This is true for every property. There's no stock holder I know who doesn't want new investors to enter the business. Same goes for every other tradable item. The more demand it has, the better it is for their pockets. This is true even for pension. If the youth stops working, the elders will stop earning and the system will collapse. The elders need newcomers.

I haven't seen you say that those are ponzis. None of those, including Bitcoin, is a ponzi scheme and I've already told you why. Yes, there's faith that people will continue using Bitcoin, I don't disagree, but it has nothing to do with the ponzi narrative. It's how free markets work.

There's also faith that your system will continue working undisturbed, that there isn't going to be bankruptcy, that it won't corrupt, yet every fiat currency has lost most of its purchasing power overtime.

Or:

Bitcoin is just a means of luring people to trade their ownership of something for the ownership of nothing. This is simply the same old scheme dressed up in a new uniform. By entering the scheme the investors gave up their ownership of electricity, cars, houses, phones, debt, equity...whatever. Only to end up with a record in a ledger. That's nothing new. People have always been recorded in some way when joining such schemes. It's just that currently the ledger is digital and decentralized. Given that no one can live off of records in a ledger (decentralized or not), members desperately need new investors to exist the scheme. That's why in bitcoin you needed all that mantras about revolution, new internet, societal salvation, freedom... storytelling about the Moon... You have to lure people into the scheme somehow. Eventually people figure out what is going on and everything collapses.

No, I haven't. Not like Bitcoin.
Have you? Could you name at least one? Since, as far as I know, there was nothing like Bitcoin before Bitcoin.

I asked for rational reasons. Not excuses for entering the system. You're basically saying that I should trade my ownership of something for the ownership of nothing because you've accepted the record of the latter as a currency. Which is as nonsensical as saying: "I've traded my car for monopoly money because I've accepted it as a money." Or, I've traded my house for a record in a ponzi scheme because I've accepted this record as a bond. Well, in your imagination you can decide to accept whatever you want. But that's not doing business. That's trying to justify irrational behavior.
So, you've never experienced that financial schemes, where people hold the record of membership but own nothing, collapse? Interesting.

While I can see the blue sky every morning, and feel the water wet every time I touch it, I've never experienced anybody stopping Bitcoin from the moment it was created. Yet, you claim that it is a truism, and that it needs no proof. How is that?

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Yeah, but we can't live off ideas, can we? ^{(assuming we survive the destruction of the solar system)}