Topic: Child Kidnappings by the Western-European States - page 9. (Read 72947 times)

Grinder, "Those who participate in this part of the forum are all conspiracy nuts" is not an argument, abut a logical fallacy, called Ad Hominem. It's main goal is to discredit and demonise a messenger and to divert the discussion from the topic at hand and onto a person delivering the message. In this case no attempt is made to address the topic. It's use is usually a strong counter-indicator that the topic has some merit and some party desperately wants that topic to disappear.

hofor also resorts to a logical fallacy in "Many of the claims are simply false, and anyone who bothered to look it up would see that they are false." referring to some unspecified claims that are allegedly false and not saying what is exactly false.

Actually, hofor states that in direct opposition to all the evidence that's been collected in this thread and to the evidence/articles  pointed to on related forums.

Now that we have this out of the way, let me reiterate some of the evidence, by asking three questions.

1. How would you classify an act of a country that detains a child with a foreign citizenship despite protests of this child's guardians and the childs home-country. Further this country provides shaky or no evidence to extradite this child to his home-country? In my book that's kidnapping/abduction. And that's exactly what happened in the case of the 3 Russian families, mentioned in the OP and in subsequent posts, as well as to Czech families, Polish families and the recent Lithuanian families, whose case hofor so viciously attacked.

2. What would you say face-to-face, to the father, who's daughters are held in captivity by the Norwegian state:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10752510

3. How would you describe the following selection of official reasons, given in order to deprive parents of their children and children of their parents?
http://www.mhskanland.net/page10/page122/page122.html

Finally, do read Marianne Skanland's posts, and keep an eye on the following sites
Save our children: http://forum.r-b-v.net/
English subsection: http://www.barnevern.org/category/utenlandske-nyheter/

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I can answer this one. Yes. But that's not the majority of child extraction cases. What about the cases, when the child is a foreign citizen? Why should Norway so desperately hold onto a citizen of another country, breaking every thinkable international law? What about the cases, where the child, after having been taken from his parents, is beaten and mistreated by the foster parents, but is return to those abusers even if he managers to escape?

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A longer update by Marianne about the Lithuanian case has rolled over onto the previous page:
 DO NOT POST SESC LINKS #top

Also, here are some updates on it in English:
http://www.barnevern.org/litauen-search-for-litauanien-boy-in-norway/


Another case:
http://www.barnevern.org/aistei-ramoskienei-fra-litauen-mistet-sonnen-til-norske-barnevernet/
A Lithuanian woman lost her 5-yo child to Norwegian CPS, after she left her husband, who displayed violent attitude. I'll write an English translation of the article later.

You are wasting your time. Those who participate in this part of the forum are all conspiracy nuts, and there is nothing you can say that will make them change their mind.

The background of the story was the claims on live public television in Lithuania, claims supported by a Lithuanian interpreter living in Norway. These claims are basically that "Norway is the most in-bred country in the world, and therefore they need fresh genes in their gene pool, and therefore the government kidnaps Lithuanian children." Of course a piece based on something is focused on that.

Don't you agree that it is rather senseless that public television in Lithuania airs the above mentioned claims? The host seemed to be all into it as well.

I'm puzzled that you seem to think NRK is to be criticized, but not the TV station in Lithuania airing these preposterous claims.

Are you saying that these principles are wrong? It sounds like you think those principles are some sinister plot or something to that effect.

Lastly, just a reminder: Could you take a look at the questions in my previous reply to you? Thanks.

  

Lithuania and Norwegian child protection on the news in Norway

On the 7 o'clock news on national tv (nrk) in Norway last night, 12 April 2015, there was a 7 minutes long report about Norwegian child protection services (CPS) and Lithuania's views on it. Much of the program is referred here:

Norsk barnevern slaktes i Litauen (Norwegian child protection is slaughtered in Lithuania)
nrk Verden, 12 April 2015

As usual, the Norwegian, state-subservient media succeeded in presenting the issue in such a way that the Norwegian ambassador in Vilnius, and the Norwegian authorities, come out as the essence of good, dependable sense, while the Lithuanians are presented as uninformed and foolish. To the degree that Lithuanians were interviewed, they were:

• either superficially informed people in the streets (although one man said that his brother with family had just left Norway because of trouble with the CPS),

• or a short glimpse of a parliament member Aurelia Stancikienè, who was critical of Norway, while the program took care also to bring us the information that the Lithuanian government had full confidence in Norwegian CPS,

• or a longer sequence with an interpreter Neringa Ozolina, who was hot on the 'explanation' that in Norway there was so much in-breeding in the form of marriages between cousins and even brother and sister that we had an excessive number of children born with Downs or other 'deficiencies' and needed new genes, plus needed to boost our population. (Not Norway but Sweden some years ago legalised sex and marriage between half-siblings.)

The reporter did not neglect to say that Norway has no higher incidence of genetic defects than other countries. (One probable reason why Lithuanians may think so, is that Norway has, I am glad to say, developed away from the primitive attitude of hiding handicapped children from view as if they are something to be ashamed of.) So the news program, conducted by journalist Tormod Strand, managed to present Lithuanians as fairly senseless.

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The Norwegian ambassador to Lithuania, Dag M. Halvorsen, was given quite a bit of interview time to explain how much of the embassy's time had now been consumed by child protection questions. He sort of just had to shake his head at all that the Lithuanians believed about Norway, and he had now hired a PR bureau to present Norway's case.

The fact that Norway has to use advertising professionals to try and stem criticism is of course encouraging. Norway is no doubt alarmed that not every word of milk and honey about Norway is accepted without question. Ambassador Halvorsen's upset actually reminded me quite a bit of an interview Norwegian tv did with a Norwegian diplomat in Russia about child protection, in which the exasperated representative of the Norwegian embassy in Moscow complained that they had 'informed' the Russians about Norwegian CPS but it did not seem to sink in with the Russians!

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There was not a word about the boy Gabrielius. Demonstrators outside the Norwegian embassy held up posters and I saw his name mentioned there, but Norwegian tv did not mention his case or that of any individual. Clever of Norwegian tv – the sure way of making people sympathise, perhaps understand, would be to show living individuals experiencing Norwegian child protection as a tragedy.

So Norwegian tv certainly did the dirty on the Lithuanians there. But Lithuania, like the Czech Republic and Russia, also opens itself and its case to quite serious criticism:

Why on earth do serious Lithuanians, e.g parliamentary representatives, not inform themselves properly about the principles of Western child protection and the scientific theories, assumptions and speculations held by the psychology that underpin it? The reason why Norwegian CPS acts as it does lies there, in clear daylight (e.g in the Raundalen committee's report) for everyone to see.

Why do they, like the Russians, guess wildly and ruminate about weird causes of CPS actions? It shows Norwegian authorities that Lithuania is badly informed and therefore not dangerous – Norway can run rings around them.


Cf
Lithuanian boy? - unclear news reports
Czech family seriously damaged by Norwegian child protection service (CPS)

  


  

Would you mind naming a couple of such individuals and parties?

Could you clarify a bit? You don't think a child that's being abused by its parents should be taken away from them?

As a thought experiment, let's consider a child who's being beaten and sexually abused by both of its parents. Should this child not be taken away from them?

Nothing is going on in those countries. I know it sounds like madness and unbelievable, but that's because it is. It is not true. Many of the claims are simply false, and anyone who bothered to look it up would see that they are false. For example, the claimed laws and rules I quote in my previous post. There are no such rules or laws. And if people bothered to check they would have figured that out by themselves.

Now I'm sure there are cases where CPS makes mistakes, but going from that and to claiming that it's systematic and on purpose is a huge stretch. Especially since the CPS needs to bring their case to "trial" if they want to take over custody of a child.

Wow, I came across this thread after searching for info on the web, and it seems there are quite a few myths being spread here.

This is simply false. The fact is that taking away a child from its parent is the last resort. The CPS has to exhaust all other available options before they can take a child away from its parents, and even then they are required to get a ruling from a special court for social issues. That ruling can be appealed to the courts as well. And unless the courts are in it with the CPS, those rulings confirm that the CPS doesn't just snatch children for trivial things.

And all those cases of foreigners having their children taken away, consider for a moment that perhaps those people don't exactly want to share details that are beneficial to their case. And the CPS in Norway generally can't comment on specific cases due to confidentiality law.

Also consider this: Norway is one of the top countries in the world when it comes to human rights. There's no death penalty, the maximum prison sentence is 21 years (except for "forvaring", which there are extremely strict criteria for and which is never permanent anyway), and so on. Do you really think one of the top countries on human rights would have an entire system in place just to terrorize innocent parents?

A child being taken away for talking about losing a milk tooth? Does anyone really believe this story?

There are no rules in Norway that a child must sleep in its own bed. This is obviously not why the child was taken away from its parents. There's obviously far more to this story than these people claim. Consider that beating your children is allowed and even endorsed in many countries. Not so in Norway. So if you move to norway and keep abusing your children, yes, CPS might knock on your door. But they will also attempt to educate you first. To give you other tools than physical violence when raising a child.

This is also false. There's no "de-genderization". Children are either placed in an institution or in foster care. Foster families are regular families that attempt to raise the children "as their own".

This is also completely false. There's no such definition in Norway.

What are the sources for all these obviously false claims? I can't believe that people actually believe the misinformation about "must always sleep in its own bed", "de-genderization" or "feeding a child is considered forced feeding".

It´s just "natural" development. West adopted virtually same methods used once in the communist east. There is this grand idea of enlightened socialist state, that owns you from cradle to grave. It started all started (like always) with good intentions, to limit poverty and protect the weakest, before interested activists from Frankfurt school and bureaus became force above law - this is especially true in northern Europe. Court of law cannot interfere with decisions of local "child protection" bureau, once they got their eyes on you, there is no legal force, that will protect you.

EDIT: You have no fucking idea, how profitable child bussiness in Europe can be. You can get middle class income (state subsidies), if you adopt these stolen children. Bureau in return gets more money from state, the more children they "protect" from their families. All for the "greater good".

  
I let myself be tempted to wake (not flog) this perhaps exhausted thread (?) once more:

Some episodes here in Norway inspired me to try and express once again that the way the child protection people are allowed to carry on, is of cause in a sense discrimination – they "approve" of some parents (whose children they think it may be too difficult to get hold of and they can't take every child 'cause then perhaps somebody would wake up - -) and frown upon others. But it is in no way open, consistent discrimination of specific actions or specific people, neither on the basis of race, religion, or anything else. On the contrary, anything goes, anything which will serve their purpose. So it's unpredictable for families (except that one can predict that if the eyes of the CPS fall on you, they certainly will find something).

So I added something to a little article I wrote a year ago:

"When people encounter an ordinary Norwegian child protection case for the first time and observe the inhumane way the family is torn apart, they search for an explanation. An ordinary child protection case is certainly not self-explanatory, i.e. of a kind in which it is obvious that society must take action to protect the children.

If the case having drawn their attention concerns a foreign family, it is easy to think that the actions of the CPS (child protection services) are caused by discrimination. Such hypotheses are common both among foreigners and among Norwegians.

I see matters somewhat differently. The actions of the CPS often amount to discrimination in actual practice, but they are not caused by it. The cause is that people with a foreign language and foreign culture are easier to attack for something about their way of living or their reasoning or the way they express themselves. What the CPS attack is often both understandable actions on the part of the family and harmless for the children (or at least far less harmful than what the CPS do against and with them). The child protection services are in principle out to attack families and snatch the children – claiming that this is in the children's best interest, of course. So they utilise whatever can be fitted into psycho-babble ideas of being fatal. Such thinking hits foreign families in the same way as it hits minority families more or less native to the country."

The article:
When children of minorities are deprived of their parents

  


This was useful, thank you, Nemo.

It might be of  (negative) interest to the Lithuanian member of the European Parliament Valentinas Mazuronis to note a new parliamentary proposal in Norway which (of course) will make matters even worse. It may not be accepted by our parliament, of course, but is quite likely to pass into law:

Here it comes – the parliamentary proposal of criminalising taking children back from acute / temporary placement away from the family
Representantforslag 71 S (2014-2015) (Midlertidig) (Proposal from parliamentary representative 71 S (2014-2015) (Temporary)
Stortinget (the Norwegian parliament), 12 March 2015


It has been clear for some time that this would come, cf that the question was taken up by our authorities in connection with the case of the Lithuanian boy Gabrielius:
especially points 4 and 5 here and
Written question from Jenny Klinge (Sp) to the Minister of Justice and Public Security, 4 - 5 February 2015. We should note that Jenny Klinge's proposal, stating that there is a lack of sanctions to take parents before a criminal court as long as the children have been taken by the CPS on the basis of a temporary decision, says that this lack "innebærer at mindreårige som er omfattet av et akuttvedtak truffet av barnevernet, har et dårligere strafferettslig vern enn andre barn" (means that minors who are subject to an acute decision taken by the CPS have less protection in criminal law than other children).


This will also possibly affect the Czech case of Eva Michaláková's children, although there the procedure is past a temporary decision.

How many naïve souls in Norway do still believe that the child protection services (CPS) intervenes only when it is abvsolutely necessary, after a long dialogue with the parents and after supportive measures have been tried … etc etc etc ?

- - -

A little later:
  
Here is Mr Valentinas Mazuronis: MEP Valentinas Mazuronis.

  

 

Wikipedia... more rofl... no way, chain of command write a letters to all the weaks scumbags undermen that did westpoint... those are so coward, write a letter to westpoint directly and ask... go with a panel there and ask.. that's it? that's you?


my sweetheart anti weed, no way, you go in, full gears, full metal casing, and lead every mother fucker relative to this shit, and when the cops and law and military of the country realize that squads of death are in, you send the drones and cyberwarfare on key infrastructure leading to a massive loss of life, and if possible the return to the stone age (in population number and lvl of technology available) and so never again a mother fucker will stealh the children of your nations, or you are a coward who did westpoint.

edit: I consider all national or private individuals warned concerning the doctrine about kidnapping Chinese Children.

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is critical.

Another of the frightening testimonials and a reminder that once you are targeted by CPS, you should evacuate.

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An update on the Lithuanian case. Here a quick translation from Russian from the following article:
http://www.regnum.ru/news/polit/1904564.html

Sounds awful, man. A lot of this news is very shocking. You should consider sharing your story in a more public manner. Here's a link to the Norway Child Welfare Services page on Wikipedia, you can add your story to the "Criticism and Diplomatic Incidents" section -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Welfare_Services_(Norway)

ohhh... American citizens held hostage... what is the cia doing... ahhh I see planning the next false flag in America...

tribute for the princes? who knows, but the cia loves gmo, then... all bets are off. sorry if true, but it's war, Total Warfare.

why should the norvegian gov have a different status than said the Iraqi one... there is American hostages held against their will... I bet if in the story the father was USMIIC his children would never have been kept more than a few hours... UNFAIR.

The cult of child welfare here in Norway is pathetically Draconian. I speak from experience. The following is a short summary.

My family has been involved with that cult since 2003. It all started when my wife was going through PPD aka Postpartum Depression after our first child. She sought help at a health clinic for it and thought we needed help with the upbringing of our first daughter. The clinic (slaves of child welfare) asked if they could contact them. My wife agreed to it, without even discussing it with me. And it blew up from there.

The cult used every dirty trick to steal our daughters (second daughter was born in 2007) from us. We won, what we thought was the last court hearing back in Oslo. Little did my wife know that when she and our daughters moved 2 hours ride north to Gjøvik, everything would start up again. Our kids were kidnapped in April 2010.

We have been through hearing after hearing and with each hearing we bring new evidence that proves we are loving and caring parents, while the child welfare cult uses outdated and fabricated material.

Here it is the 12th of March 2015 and our daughters are STILL in captivity.

Parents and children here have ZERO rights. The cult of child welfare has been violating Human Rights and parental rights for YEARS and most cases, the cult 'wins'. Norway has even been brought to the European Court of Human Rights several times and EACH time, they have been found guilty.

Those that think this does not happen in Norway, then I suggest that you open your eyes, because myopia is not a good way to live.

My wife and I have LIMITED visitations with our daughters for a scant couple, yes I said COUPLE, of hours for LITERALLY once a year. None of us are abusive, neglectful, violent or do drugs. And look at how we are treated. Norway is NOT the perfect country people believe it is. Sure, it is beautiful in many ways, but there is MUCH going on here that those outside Norway AND even inside Norway simply choose to not believe that these crimes happen.

For the record, I am an American citizen that is married to a beautiful Norwegian woman and am treated like a leper by Norway.