CryptoNote technical discussion and Chess Challenge - page 59.

languagehasmeaning

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Quote from: dre1982 on October 06, 2015, 04:42:24 AM

Can anyone join this game or not? I am already playing the game Bitcointalk vs Unknown GM.

I hate losing chess games. It appears that the bitcointalk team (which dre1982 and I are part of) is likely to lose the game below. Come on Team Boolberry! Lets focus hard and try to do better in this game!

Quote from: letsplayagame on August 09, 2015, 01:00:23 PM

Your move bitcointalk. You have the white pieces
The current position is updated below:

boolberry

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Votes so far:

Nf6 (newb4now)
Nc6 (languagehasmeaning, dre1982, boolberry)

Votes become final at 0:00 UTC

boolberry

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Quote from: onemorexmr on October 06, 2015, 11:52:56 AM

Quote from: boolberry on October 06, 2015, 11:47:22 AM

cross post from boolberry speculation thread because it cointains CryptoNote technical questions relating to privacy from jl777 (SuperNET). He mentions BBR and XMR specifically and has privacy concerns regarding transaction volume.

Is my memory correct that MRL thought about this at some point and made suggestions for how and when to mixin inputs to combat some of his data analysis concerns? I am referring to age in addition to # of mixins.

IMHO his concern is not the privacy of cryptonote. its just that its traceable if you buy and sell a huge amount immediately.
the same concerns are true for a bitcoin sidechain which uses cryptonote.

imagine someone buys XMR for 100BTC
and uses xmr.to to pay a BTC address immediately.

with BTC blockchain analyses it is possible to link those transactions.

people who already own xmr (or bbr) beforehand are not affected as their transactions are to far away to link them.

so: monero users not affected Wink

EDIT: he said he wants to use coinshuffle to beat this. not sure how that would work as this has exact the same problems - except if he plans to shuffle all coins always which would force some more volume.

That makes sense to me. Basically if you withdraw a very large quantity (of BBR, XMR) from a known entity and then move it all again a few minutes later blockchain analysis and common sense could help form a very strong presumption (not proof) of the relation of those transactions. The more transactions that occur and the longer the time period between such transactions the harder they would be to connect.

onemorexmr

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Quote from: boolberry on October 06, 2015, 11:47:22 AM

cross post from boolberry speculation thread because it cointains CryptoNote technical questions relating to privacy from jl777 (SuperNET). He mentions BBR and XMR specifically and has privacy concerns regarding transaction volume.

Is my memory correct that MRL thought about this at some point and made suggestions for how and when to mixin inputs to combat some of his data analysis concerns? I am referring to age in addition to # of mixins.

IMHO his concern is not the privacy of cryptonote. its just that its traceable if you buy and sell a huge amount immediately.
the same concerns are true for a bitcoin sidechain which uses cryptonote.

imagine someone buys XMR for 100BTC
and uses xmr.to to pay a BTC address immediately.

with BTC blockchain analyses it is possible to link those transactions.

people who already own xmr (or bbr) beforehand are not affected as their transactions are to far away to link them.

so: monero users not affected Wink

EDIT: he said he wants to use coinshuffle to beat this. not sure how that would work as this has exact the same problems - except if he plans to shuffle all coins always which would force some more volume.

boolberry

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Merit: 250

boolberry

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Merit: 250

Quote from: funnyman21 on October 06, 2015, 08:11:12 AM

I know that it would be a massive change, but is there any chance bitcoin might decide to switch to CryptoNote at some point, or at least offer it as a side chain?

That is a political question as much as a technical one. My guess is that there is less than a 1% chance that it will happen on the main chain. CryptoNote may well be one of several side chain options at some point but that probably won't happen for a few more years.

Side chains still have technical problems (some impacting privacy) which need to be resolved.

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Quote from: letsplayagame on October 06, 2015, 06:51:29 AM

http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/privacy-and-fungibility/

This is interesting but it lacks discussion of the possibility of pruning within CryptoNote:

"CryptoNote leaves a trail of transaction outputs that are ambiguously spent, you can’t tell if coins have been spent or not. You have to keep the UTXO set around forever. The use of lightning network for example would allow some increase in privacy, and move stuff off-chain at the same time."

Some good points:

"Do the programmers believe in privacy? Some people don’t believe that certain privacy should exist. There should be a bigger emphasis on explaining what the privacy is for, and why the general public needs it. Describing the necessity of fungibility may help.

Later retroactive deanonymization is a constant threat in the future. Weak privacy can burn users. Retroactive privacy is probably impossible."

Bitcoin fungibility needs to be addressed now to protect users privacy, not at some point in the distant future.

Are Confidential Transactions the most likely solution to bitcoin fungibility? Coinjoin is like a bandaid that is easily removed and Zerocash is still unproven.

I know that it would be a massive change, but is there any chance bitcoin might decide to switch to CryptoNote at some point, or at least offer it as a side chain?

letsplayagame

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http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/privacy-and-fungibility/

This is interesting but it lacks discussion of the possibility of pruning within CryptoNote:

"CryptoNote leaves a trail of transaction outputs that are ambiguously spent, you can’t tell if coins have been spent or not. You have to keep the UTXO set around forever. The use of lightning network for example would allow some increase in privacy, and move stuff off-chain at the same time."

Some good points:

"Do the programmers believe in privacy? Some people don’t believe that certain privacy should exist. There should be a bigger emphasis on explaining what the privacy is for, and why the general public needs it. Describing the necessity of fungibility may help.

Later retroactive deanonymization is a constant threat in the future. Weak privacy can burn users. Retroactive privacy is probably impossible."

Bitcoin fungibility needs to be addressed now to protect users privacy, not at some point in the distant future.

languagehasmeaning

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Quote from: dre1982 on October 06, 2015, 05:27:33 AM

My suggestion here is also Nc6. White has the play his queen and after that we can develop one of our other pieces.

I like your plan. By forcing white to move his queen now he may put in on a square that interferes with the normal development of one of his minor pieces.

dre1982

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★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!

Quote from: smooth on October 06, 2015, 05:25:58 AM

I guess BBR has fewer players now. The previous BBR move had 2 votes and the previous XMR move had 6.

Ok I will join them.

My suggestion here is also Nc6. White has the play his queen and after that we can develop one of our other pieces.

Quote from: languagehasmeaning on October 06, 2015, 05:27:20 AM

Boolberry has fewer players. Welcome to the game and discussion!

Thanks.

languagehasmeaning

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Quote from: dre1982 on October 06, 2015, 05:21:11 AM

Quote from: smooth on October 06, 2015, 04:49:28 AM

Quote from: dre1982 on October 06, 2015, 04:42:24 AM

Can anyone join this game or not? I am already playing the game Bitcointalk vs Unknown GM.

Yes anyone can join. Pick a team and discussion of CryptoNote technology is welcome along with the game play.

Ok nice. Which team has the less players? Will join that team.

Boolberry has fewer players. Welcome to the game and discussion!

So far both teams are playing the same as this game:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1802118&kpage=3

smooth

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I guess BBR has fewer players now. The previous BBR move had 2 votes and the previous XMR move had 6.

dre1982

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★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!

Quote from: smooth on October 06, 2015, 04:49:28 AM

Quote from: dre1982 on October 06, 2015, 04:42:24 AM

Can anyone join this game or not? I am already playing the game Bitcointalk vs Unknown GM.

Yes anyone can join. Pick a team and discussion of CryptoNote technology is welcome along with the game play.

Ok nice. Which team has the less players? Will join that team.

languagehasmeaning

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Voting Nc6

smooth

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Quote from: dre1982 on October 06, 2015, 04:42:24 AM

Can anyone join this game or not? I am already playing the game Bitcointalk vs Unknown GM.

Yes anyone can join. Pick a team and discussion of CryptoNote technology is welcome along with the game play.

dre1982

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★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!

Can anyone join this game or not? I am already playing the game Bitcointalk vs Unknown GM.

newb4now

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Nf6 please. Lets keep developing our pieces.

boolberry

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Based on the votes in this thread Team Monero has chosen to play c4. Now it is time for Team Boolberry to respond. I will plan to count votes again tomorrow at approximately 0:00 UTC.

Team Monero (white pieces) vs. Team Boolberry (black pieces)
black to move

1.e4 c5
2.Nf3 d6
3.d4 cxd4
4.Qxd4 a6
5.c4

languagehasmeaning

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Quote from: dEBRUYNE on October 05, 2015, 03:43:50 PM

Crosspost because relevant. I'll not clutter the chess game any further :-P

Quote

This change adds the ability to create a new unsigned transaction from a watch only wallet, and save it to a file. This file can then be moved to another computer/VM where a cold wallet may load it, sign it, and save it. That cold wallet does not need to have a blockchain nor daemon. The signed transaction file can then be moved back to the watch only wallet, which can load it and send it to the daemon.

Two new simplewallet commands to use it:
sign_transfer (on the cold wallet)
submit_transfer (on the watch only wallet)

The transfer command used on a watch only wallet now writes an unsigned transaction set in a file called 'unsigned_monero_tx' instead of submitting the tx to the daemon as a normal wallet does. The signed tx file is called 'signed_monero_tx'.

Definitely relevant and good news.

dEBRUYNE

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Quote from: bbreconomy on October 05, 2015, 06:06:08 AM

Signing bitcoin transactions offline is really important to a lot of people.

Are there any CryptoNote coins that have made progress with this yet?

https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/issues/354

Crosspost because relevant. I'll not clutter the chess game any further :-P

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: MoneroMooo on October 05, 2015, 10:07:42 AM

Quote from: dEBRUYNE on October 05, 2015, 09:51:47 AM

MoneroMooo has been working on it in his own branch, but since it is not merged yet it probably isn't finished. See -> https://github.com/moneromooo-monero/bitmonero/commits/cold and in particular this commit: https://github.com/moneromooo-monero/bitmonero/commit/3c44e9fb6c1b57852d37780414ed6e42afc19afb

Quote

This change adds the ability to create a new unsigned transaction from a watch only wallet, and save it to a file. This file can then be moved to another computer/VM where a cold wallet may load it, sign it, and save it. That cold wallet does not need to have a blockchain nor daemon. The signed transaction file can then be moved back to the watch only wallet, which can load it and send it to the daemon.

Two new simplewallet commands to use it:
sign_transfer (on the cold wallet)
submit_transfer (on the watch only wallet)

The transfer command used on a watch only wallet now writes an unsigned transaction set in a file called 'unsigned_monero_tx' instead of submitting the tx to the daemon as a normal wallet does. The signed tx file is called 'signed_monero_tx'.

It worked, though I'm not sure it still applies, though any conflicts should not be hard to solve, if there are any.
What needs doing there is reducing the size of the exchange files, as they're a complete set of transactions plus relevant data, which means the whole deserilization code on the cold wallet is an attack surface. Cutting the size down will apparently make it easier to transfer via QR code scanning, avoiding attacks via filesystems and removable media firmware.

But it works

Topic: CryptoNote technical discussion and Chess Challenge - page 59. (Read 96150 times)