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Topic: Dark Enlightenment (Read 69297 times)

hero member
Activity: 568
Merit: 703
August 28, 2018, 02:48:13 PM
Interesting thoughts, but "A plausible reason that high IQ people tend to favor feminism (and the socialism which supports it) " - where does this data comes from?
I doubt this)

He added this to his Steemit post:

Note as for data supporting my thesis that intellectuals who study at universities are heavily into progressivism, just look at the political pressure in most universities, notice how intellectuals prefer domesticated docile cats over vicious Pitbulls as pets, and notice how they write “she” instead of he to refer to a programmer in their research papers. Also see the IQ distribution of atheists in the U.S.A. chart which can be found on the following blog by searching for “it’s negentropic”:

https://steemit.com/philosophy/@anonymint/geographical-cultural-ethos-science-is-dead-part-2

Atheism is the religion of no patriarchy because God is the penultimate patriarch.
hero member
Activity: 568
Merit: 703
August 27, 2018, 11:08:08 AM
Shelby forwarded this to me:


---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Debate between Satoshi’s first public contact and myself continues
From:    "Shelby Moore"
Date:    Mon, August 27, 2018 7:46 am
To:      [email protected]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

James A. Donald (aka Jim) was the first person who responded on the
mailing list when Satoshi first announced the existence of Bitcoin to the
public.

I am debating him:

https://blog.jim.com/politics/and-another-one-bites-the-dust/#comment-1876730

https://blog.jim.com/culture/the-optics-of-noticing/#comment-1876738

https://blog.jim.com/politics/and-another-one-bites-the-dust/#comment-1877258

(last link is about the unique social contract of the Jews)
sr. member
Activity: 1974
Merit: 350
August 24, 2018, 01:07:31 AM
Interesting thoughts, but "A plausible reason that high IQ people tend to favor feminism (and the socialism which supports it) " - where does this data comes from?
I doubt this)
Moreover Dark Englightment as intellectual movement (if it might be called so) is definitely anti-socialist


I believe it is what is referred to as "neo-reactionary".

Yes you are right, it is synonym
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
August 23, 2018, 10:47:21 PM
Interesting thoughts, but "A plausible reason that high IQ people tend to favor feminism (and the socialism which supports it) " - where does this data comes from?
I doubt this)
Moreover Dark Englightment as intellectual movement (if it might be called so) is definitely anti-socialist


I believe it is what is referred to as "neo-reactionary".
sr. member
Activity: 1974
Merit: 350
August 23, 2018, 12:18:13 PM
Interesting thoughts, but "A plausible reason that high IQ people tend to favor feminism (and the socialism which supports it) " - where does this data comes from?
I doubt this)
Moreover Dark Englightment as intellectual movement (if it might be called so) is definitely anti-socialist
hero member
Activity: 568
Merit: 703
August 23, 2018, 10:25:20 AM
The progenitor of the OP of this thread has a new comment which may be worthy of repeating over here:

My epiphany today. A plausible reason that high IQ people tend to favor feminism (and the socialism which supports it) is because they’re most competitive when their intellect is not able to be countered by testosterone. IOW, they want society to be structured in a way that puts at a disadvantage the trait they typically do not have.

The ties in with my argument as to which strict patriarchy is a defect-defect situation at any scale larger than the Dunbar number size limited tribe. The males in the society will try to find any way to leverage the collective to put the other males at a competitive disadvantage. The intellectuals politically coalesce around defeating testosterone which causes the society to go decadent in R strategy reproduction with fatherless children destroying the nuclear family structure that otherwise creates a strong society.

Yet the lack of strict patriarchy is also a defect-defect situation. So the conclusion is that nation-states are also a defect-defect situation. This is why nation-states are being disintermediated now by Bitcoin and decentralized ledgers. We’re moving to a NWO back towards highly decentralized  knowledge age tribes. Eventually there will be a world government for that the defect-defect arrangement to replace the weakening power of the nation-states. Nation-states will be disintegrate back into knowledge age tribal regions in the NWO.

Again I discussed these concepts recently as as username X:

https://blog.jim.com/culture/the-optics-of-noticing/#comments
hero member
Activity: 568
Merit: 703
May 19, 2018, 04:10:50 AM

It is a structural inevitability that the libertarian voice is drowned out in democracy, and according to Lind it should be.
Ever more libertarians are likely to agree.
‘Voice’ is democracy itself, in its historically dominant, Rousseauistic strain.


The progenitor of this thread asked me to inform you that your post is very astute and refers you to where he blogs now because he is permabanned from bitcointalk.org:

https://steemit.com/@anonymint
newbie
Activity: 8
Merit: 0
February 26, 2018, 11:34:17 AM
It is a structural inevitability that the libertarian voice is drowned out in democracy, and according to Lind it should be. Ever more libertarians are likely to agree. ‘Voice’ is democracy itself, in its historically dominant, Rousseauistic strain.
full member
Activity: 138
Merit: 102
January 24, 2018, 01:45:35 PM
What's this about? You quoted one of your own links.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
January 24, 2018, 01:38:19 PM


It’s the antithesis of superrationality to presume that hypergamy will ever cease to exist, because a mix of R and K reproductive strategies is nature’s necessarily bottom-up mechanism for annealing resilency of the species.

Top-down organization and teachings can never be resilient and dynamically adaptive to the unpredictable multi-dimensional solution space of our universe, unless the universe becomes computable which would thus require everything to be knowable a priori, which is the same as saying that nothing could exist. For all information to travel instantly to top-down controllers would require the speed-of-light to be not quantized, thus the past and future light cones of relativity would collapse into undifferentiated. Our very existence requires friction so that information is relativistic.

Top-down systems can never be resilent (i.e. survive long-term), because they can’t adapt decentralized with low capital decentralized inputs. This is the fundamental reason that Kurzweil and his Singularity is entirely impossible. How can an AI which depends on a few dozen chip fabs be any where near as resilient as nature’s decentralized procreation via zillions of daily mutations and chemical reactions. Feeding entropy into AI is a top-down centralized process, even if the AI is feeding itself entropy, the limiting factor is the lack of non-deterministic (i.e. randomly bottom-up) chaos (i.e. Butterfly Effect) in the initial procreation conditions.

In short, AI can only become truly alive if it becomes imperfect and randomized in it’s instantiation of itself, in which case it’s computational superiority will just be tool and implausible to attain universal dominance. Nature abhors a (n entropic) vacuum and thus can never be universally dominated by any given phenomenon. I had tried to explain this before:

http://unheresy.com/Information%20Is%20Alive.html




Great stuff; very well done!

The linked blog post makes clear that subjective self-aware consciousness is necessarily intrinsically embodied in-the-world and thus cannot be implemented in any AI separated by abstraction layers from grounded sensory experience.

The Singulartarians will respond that any AI passing the Turing Test by sufficiently emulating primary consciousness may still enslave us, reducing our quibbling to mere distinction without functional difference.

That implies the winner of the NL/ML arms race is an empirical question which will be decided by facts on the ground, not a priori theoretical speculation.
jr. member
Activity: 42
Merit: 4
January 23, 2018, 05:50:18 AM
Well argued and articulated.

The USA is not an island and there’s a lot of bad guys with guns and that won’t change even if the good guys give up their guns, because the problem is too vast. Europe may become more familiar with this predicament if they continue importing millions of rapefugees. When a bad guy is pointing or shooting a gun in a life threatening manner, it’s not manslaughter to defend oneself.

QUESTION: Mr. Armstrong; Here in Germany, one obvious consequence of the refugee migration has been that wages are declining for low-end jobs. I believe you had said that would be a consequence of the refugee crisis. Do you see this spreading throughout Europe?

ANSWER: It is only common sense that if you increase the labor force in the low-end unskilled area, wages must decline. Every study that has ever been conducted on this issue has shown that is the logical consequence. This is indeed what caused the riots in Philadelphia against the Irish. Wages declines in the midst of a depression. Yes this trend will spread throughout the EU.

Also survivalism and rugged independence is still a core value amongst some Americans. Remember we needed our guns and militias to protect ourselves from illegal taxation and oppression by your King. We’re descended from the concept of independence and individualism. And we have a history of war against natives, British, Mexicans, North vs. South, and probably another civil war coming soon of extremist leftist cities versus extremist conservative rural areas.

Western Europeans are tired of fighting after 2000 years of it. The Americans aren’t quite done yet.


Simple. Because Brits are descended from a monarchy system as contrasted against Americans who are descended from a republic and the struggle for independence from the monarchy. Many Americans view guns as a patriotic duty. Brits view themselves as placated servants to the queen (in the abstract culturally they do). In short, some Americans are still prepared to kick ass when the time comes.
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
January 20, 2018, 12:06:38 AM
One of my last recent public comments to @CoinCube was a challenge to tell me how I can be successful, i.e. to give me actionable information.

One thought occurred to me that up until now, social networking has been shaped by centralized corporations who are subsidizing and promoting leftism and unproductive activities (e.g. you should see my gf click Like on everything from someone she knows, without any thought to whether she really likes it).

As we move the Internet to a decentralized paradigm, one of my goals is this subsidization will cease and we’ll have a more meritorious form of social networking.

For me lately one of the higher purposes that has been driving me is the thought that perhaps decentralization would ameliorate to some extent the corruption of top-down control power vacuums and that would include the institutions built around religion. Perhaps this may help drive humans back towards religion in its decentralized form as exemplified in Matthew 6:5? Thus any State violating the meritocracy would be viewed rightly so as a parasite and a heresy.

So can decentralization improve (the institutions of) Christianity more towards Jesus’ ideal?

Certainly this is the case with social media currently.

Case in point: Facebook To Start Ranking News Sources, Promote Only The "Most Trustworthy"
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-01-19/facebook-start-ranking-news-sources-promote-only-most-trustworthy

However, you cannot talk about decentralization without talking about the underlying coherence the decentralized agents agree upon. What the actors work independently but cooperatively towards achieving. The source code or unifying principles. Without this coherence you are not dealing with decentralization but chaos.

Decentralization helps to mitigate human corruption via limiting the ability of a single institution or individual to employ power and coercion to force unearned rents from others. However, decentralization is also very costly and inefficient it is competitive only because human appetite is limitless and thus so is the potential cost of forced centralization. Voluntary centralization is not a problem it is forced centralization that is potentially catastrophic.

Bitcoin for example exists and will thrive because governments reflect these unlimited appetites and will continue to debase fiat until confidence in fiat collapse and global monetary reform is forced.

The following thread which discusses the nature of what will develop from such a forced reform is quite interesting especially the posts by AgentofCoin.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.27327487

I believe the answer to your question of whether decentralization can improve (the institutions of) Christianity more towards Jesus’ ideal is yes. It's probably not a coincidence that the enlightenment did not happen until after the shattering of a single European monolithic and centralized church into multiple smaller organizations that independently reached towards similar aspirations.
jr. member
Activity: 42
Merit: 4
January 19, 2018, 07:36:31 PM
James A. Donald aka JAD or Jim (the first person to respond when Satoshi announced Bitcoin on the mailing list) has a thought provoking discussion going on about the future of religion in terms of promoting the maximum productivity of society:

https://blog.jim.com/culture/fixing-christianity/

https://blog.jim.com/uncategorized/request-for-research-assistance/#comment-1774211

I’d like to comment over there, but seems I’m banned there also.

Religion exists to create societies which are much more productive than without religion (i.e. the religious societies are more productive/erudite and thus resilient and anti-fragile…that’s until they’re co-opted by the unholiness of human manipulation of the institutions of the religion):

https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/were-only-human/why-do-we-have-religion-anyway.html

It’s long-term ineffective for us humans to rally around admiration or dedication to another human (although this happens sometimes in the short-term for example for cults and political leaders), because humans are imperfect and this will eventually lead to a collapse of such an idealism.

So humans can be very motivated if they believe there might be some higher purpose to their existence that unifies around their core needs and maximizes their collective success.

Since we’re unable to prove scientifically that a God exists or doesn’t exist, this plausibility of a higher purpose to our existence is open to all possibilities (as it must be for us to exist as I have explained numerous times in prior discussions in these forums with for example @CoinCube). See quote below.

I’m intrigued by the comments over there at Jim’s blog pondering if an upgrade to Christianity might derive somehow from technological developments, such as the rise of social networking over the Internet.

One of my last recent public comments to @CoinCube was a challenge to tell me how I can be successful, i.e. to give me actionable information.

One thought occurred to me that up until now, social networking has been shaped by centralized corporations who are subsidizing and promoting leftism and unproductive activities (e.g. you should see my gf click Like on everything from someone she knows, without any thought to whether she really likes it).

As we move the Internet to a decentralized paradigm, one of my goals is this subsidization will cease and we’ll have a more meritorious form of social networking.

For me lately one of the higher purposes that has been driving me is the thought that perhaps decentralization would ameliorate to some extent the corruption of top-down control power vacuums and that would include the institutions built around religion. Perhaps this may help drive humans back towards religion in its decentralized form as exemplified in Matthew 6:5? Thus any State violating the meritocracy would be viewed rightly so as a parasite and a heresy.

So can decentralization improve (the institutions of) Christianity more towards Jesus’ ideal?

Atheist: “Nope.”

Christian: “I want to introduce you to my best friend . . . Jesus Christ.”

Jew: “If he does then he's got about 3,000 years of explaining to do!”

Muslim: “I don't drop what I'm doing five times a day to pray for nothing.”

Scientist: “Haven't figured that out yet, we're still doing the math.”

Hippie: “Our Mother Earth, Gaia.”

Buddhist: “Do you think God exists?”

Stoner: “Do . . . like . . . any of us really exist?”

Polytheist: “They all do.”

Hindu: “33 Gods exist . . . or is it 33 crores?”

Feminist: “Yes She does!”

Agnostic: “Maybe.”

Sci-Fi: “God is an alien!”

Greek Philosopher: “What if God did exist? Then what?”

Criminally Insane: “I am God!”

Joan Osborne: “What if God was one of us?”

Aquinas: “Yes, and a good thing, too.”

Paine: “Yes, but we’re still screwed.”

Sartre: “No, so we’re still screwed.”

Nietzsche: “No, and a good thing, too.”

“Then there was the dyslexic agnostic insomniac who stayed up all night wondering if there really is a dog.”

Neoclassical Economist: “Whether or not God exists is irrelevant. The cost of believing in God is minuscule compared to the benefit you’d get if God does exist.”

Nietzsche: “God is dead”

God: “Nietzsche is dead”

Edit: Insane response. Thank you everyone. Of course this isn't meant to represent any belief system as it is just a comical approach to this on going of “does God exist?” Best wishes.

jr. member
Activity: 42
Merit: 4
January 19, 2018, 10:19:55 AM
Unlike James A. Donald’s unrealistic extremism, Jordan Peterson knows how to have dialogue with a much larger swath of society on this subject matter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54

I don’t however agree with him that women will necessary excel for example in medicine if ever it’s no longer a state subsidized and regulated non-free market (and I do agree with him that in any case such discrepancies aren’t because of IQ differences except perhaps on the extreme outliers of theoretical science). I think JAD is actually closer to correct on the natural roles of women in a free market. However, we must assess that collectivism is a feature of civilization so again JAD’s insight may be an unrealistic extremism, i.e. socialism and collectivism may be a permanent feature of civilization yet I’m not sure.

One possible perspective is that Jordan Peterson is more attuned to where we are now at the current juncture of civilization (which makes sense given he is data driven as a clinical psychologist) and JAD is more attuned to where we might be heading with a collapse of socialism and collectivism along with the collapse of the industrial age and fixed capital investment which require socialism and collectivism.

Also, this Anonymint theory that western women open the door to muslim invasion because women inherently want to be "raped and conquered" is way off.  Just like Einstein and Hitler both summarized:  "like anything else, nature is the best teacher".  Animals like female whales will send out a call to male whales.  When several males show up, the female runs away and tries to get the males to fight over her to the death and waits to see what survives in the aftermath.

That is exactly what human females do.  They try to force males to compete over them (preferably to the death to make the selection process easiest for the female).  Women are inherently genetic filters that try to get men killed on purpose to weed out bad genes.  The so called motherly traits really only extend to their offspring or some type of imaginary offspring in their head like a cat or small dog.  Men are disposable cannon fodder to them.

@r0ach should correctly attribute his criticism to the source, which is JAD’s theory.

@r0ach is attempting to make a distinction here between the implied desire that women want to be impregnated (forcefully via “rape”) by the most competitive and warrior genetics, and his theory that women want to incentivize men to compete for them. Sorry but I fail to see any generative essence distinction between the two concepts.

I guess he is thinking that although women instinctively want the most competitive genetics for their offspring, that they don’t want to be forcefully abducted or impregnated and would prefer more control over the situation that follows the competition of the males. And that they’d like the competition to take place within some orderly social structure that empowers them to retain control over such matters of engagement. Yeah females may have all sorts of fantasies, but the reality is that if they want males to compete to the death then in fact they abrogate such orderly control. So what they actually want is to be raped and conquered, because surely they can’t defend themselves against the victorious warriors. Duh. IOW, women want the social structure to give them every fantasy they can imagine, which of course is an outcome of total collapse and disorder (which btw is why we need females because the Second Law of Thermo requires that the trend to maximum disorder is inexorable). The instincts and feminine traits of women render them (collectively) entirely incapable of planning and logic that would sustain social order.

Even if you're dumb enough to play the woman's game and survive as the victor, they always believe their life is more important than the male, that the male is a disposable stepping stone, and are gone the second the male ceases to provide them with enormously asymmetric benefit (if they can find a better option or if divorce gives them some type of reward).

Correct w.r.t. to their hypergamy instincts. But perhaps this can be ameliorated somewhat by their upbringing and social pressure.
member
Activity: 158
Merit: 11
Omnity - Unifying Knowledge For Faster Insight
December 15, 2017, 06:03:14 PM
Wow. I never heard about Dark Enlightenment, but what I'm just reading seems to me extremely stimulating.
I'l try tp understand better the principles, then I'll try to give my umble impressions.
sr. member
Activity: 1974
Merit: 350
December 15, 2017, 05:03:01 PM
I actually has no idea of what dark enlightenment is. however i hope it was not harmful to anyone. And hopefully helpful.

Xena, check this article:
https://steemit.com/politics/@voloshyn/cryptocurrency-philosophy-and-politics-right-wing-and-left-wing-influences

It's not only about Dark Enlightenment, but I hope it will give you some idea.
Then you can read works on Nick Land and Curtis Yarvin, or at least some short brief of their ideas in the internet.
As for me recently I got Curtis Yarvin's book ob Kindle (Mencius Moldbug - that's his pseudonym, name of a book "A Gentle Introduction to Unqualified Reservations "
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
December 12, 2017, 01:13:24 AM
Warning, this will exceed the intellectual capacity of most readers here. This is intended for the high IQ audience of Eric's blog.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5457696




I voted "most of them". I agree with ESR's comments:

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5238&cpage=1#comment-424645

Quote from: ESR
Quote
>Out of curiosity, why do you believe this ideology worthy of a lengthy series? Nothing against it, I’m just wondering what the trigger was.

Because they have a flavorful mix of dangerous truth-telling and utter bogosity going on.

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5238&cpage=1#comment-424636
Quote from: ESR
...Furthermore, if it were actually true, the DE would be entirely a noisome fever-swamp of bad ideas, rather than just rotten in spots.




I actually has no idea of what dark enlightenment is. however i hope it was not harmful to anyone. And hopefully helpful.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
December 04, 2017, 07:54:18 AM
This is the slamdunk, homerun post for this discussion about females and species resilience.

A very important insight into decentralization and also the need remove the female monopoly on reproduction is near the end of this post.

Someone sent this Redditard link, so I thought it contained some eloquent explanations which could be helpful here.

I’m trying to influence you to be a bit jaded, but not totally so. There’s still virtue (i.e. method in the madness) in the process which will fleece so many. Remember the big fish don’t control the climate or what we eat for breakfast (i.e. the minions matter but only decentralized, they’re never organized).

Here’s one philosophical stance:

[…]

Apparently nature needs the localized failure so evolution is antifragile (constantly annealing to avoid commitment to top-down error). Perhaps rather than be disappointed, we should just see it for what it is and adapt accordingly within the limitations of our personal time horizons and such.



Yeah technology is diversifying and decentralizing at a breakneck pace!

Only Dark Age I could imagine would be if we somehow made ourselves extinct by meddling in our genome. Our rate of technological+cultural evolution is moving much faster than the species selection process of evolution can anneal, so it is possible we could loose too much information and create a huge accidental extinction (a concept that argues against too much decentralization which @CoinCube had first pointed out to me with a biological model). The paradigm is Transhumanism.



Quote
In the meantime, however, as I have pointed out, if my government actually represented me, heritage white Americans, then our immigration policy would be simple:

All white women under 35 may come and get immediate permanent status.

No men may come.

Period.

We can “conquer” the other tribes and take their women without trying."

He is incorrect. He has a very myopic and simplistic analysis.

If our government actually represented the people, then there would be no USA. I mean he does not even get the foundational concepts right.

The entire rest of the world would be different also if the power vacuum of democracy had actually been avoidable. I do not like listening to such losers who fail to grasp reality. Total waste of time.

There’s no glory in presuming the 1950s were sustainable in any way. We have to live in the reality of our time and what is. That sort of thinking is a trap.

I think you’re still hoping to build a patriarchal white society on the scale of a country, that is not subjugated to the will of the Zionists. I say that’s impossible.

Our strength is decentralization technology and not some large political-economics morass. My last post in the DE thread is about for example how decentralized reproductive technology may enable us to side-step the current entitlement of females which is destroying us.

I want to think of viable strategies, not just wax nostalgia run off to Armenia while it all burns down then eventually catches up to Armenia also. We need a paradigm shift. Nostalgia about what did not work will not work.

Quote
I pasted it here as an interesting approach to changing the balance of power between men and women.  What would the US look like with such an immigration policy?  It's a thought experiment.

The USA could never have such an immigration policy.

I’m not trying to criticize you per se. That is not my focus. My focus is on not wasting time on thought experiments which are silly.

I want to read about real plans and thought experiments which are implementable. Unrealistic theory is not going to make me wealthy and immortal. Offspring = immortality.

I’m just more aggressive than you about actually being ready to try some outlandish solution. You’re more interested in enjoying the time you have even if it’s not really going to win in the long run. But I might also throw in the towel and just enjoy some years of my remaining life.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
November 30, 2017, 12:54:53 AM

No where in the above quote did I declare you are evil, nor did I declare what your ethics are.

You have on two separate and very recent occasions in this particular thread stated that my ethics are evil. I will quote them for you to refresh your memory.

For example, CC’s ethics are actually evil. He wants to control men because he thinks they will father children they can not support. But this results in a clusterfucked totalitarianism. Man can not defeat nature.

ecash 11 Nov., 9:03am
Religion was an attempt to control nature. And it necessarily leaks/fails, because nature abhors a perfected, non-existence.

ecash 11 Nov., 9:06am
For example, CC’s ethics are actually evil. He wants to control men

I am not interested in debate or looking to "win" a charge was leveled against me that is both serious and false. This demanded a public rebuttal.

I have now replied to the falsehood and have no further interest in the matter.

Nevertheless I have not lied. Note the word “above”. You had misquoted me in the prior message by trying to apply this different context now quoted above by you, wherein I was talking about your stance towards men, to this more recent context wherein I was talking about disregarding the fact that God is provably (per the logic I explained on this page and our private message follow-ups) an issue of faith and can’t be proven with reason and logic. This btw is I believe the reason Jesus spoke in parables which he alluded to in scripture.

As for the context of your ethics about putting a double-standard on men by accusing them of not treating women fairly if we do not allow the State to destroy marriage and funding/encouraging hedonism by allowing the woman to take control over the man’s financial life, then yeah I do not like leftists in that respect and I think that is a very evil ideology with grave implications leading to totalitarian war and megadeath (as well as many other aspects of a decadent civilization such as collapsing birthrate):

The actions of females can be better understood and explained once their subconscious mind is taken into account. I am confident that the cited psychologist will agree with me after he reads what I wrote and researches the facts. I have no problem with allowing females to be in a meritocracy where they must compete equally. In that case, end all divorce laws, end all affirmative action, end all identity politics/subsidies/distorts of the free market. That means do not force men to pay for the children! Let women compete with their biology as it is, and stop subsidizing them. Stop putting a double-standard on men. If a man does not want to support his offspring, that is his decision to make, not society. Otherwise you're subsidizing hypergamy. You and I will never agree on this.

[…]

End egalitarianism. You can't have it both ways. Complaining about something while continuing to do what causes that something is not a very coherent state-of-mind.

When I wrote that, I do actually think your stance towards men is despicable and evil. And you think that men who refuse to support their wife/kids are despicable and immoral (yet we do not know if that man had a valid reason why he did not want to encourage the behavior of that woman/kids by supporting them). In fact, it has caused a great rift between what was formerly viewed as a sincere friendship between us. But I also recognize in a calmer reflective mindset, that I’m not omniscient enough to be able to judge whether you’re truly evil. I personally dislike men who are under the skirt of their woman, and I avoid them for the same reason I avoid dogs with rabies. (And frankly I do not think you’re intentionally intending to not be upstanding. It appears to be your extreme desire to be upstanding that makes you what I judge to be a zealot, so afaics it’s sort of a trap you are in that you are incapable of grokking from another perspective) Heck I have even told you before either publicly or privately that I don’t view myself as above evil. We have imperfect information because the universe we comprehend is the antithesis of a total order as we discussed upthread already. In fact, my entire argument with you about superrationality has been about that we are arbitrary and there is no universal truth, juxtaposed versus your (and Charlton's) illogical stance being that we can seek to be non-arbitrary and that there is a universal truth.

Afaics, the entire ideological chasm that separates us is because you (like a typical Westerner leftist/progressive/zealot ideologue) have a worldview that man can improve himself and that we are on a monotonically increasing path towards betterment of ourselves ethically. Whereas, I prescribe more to the Asian perspective (not surprising given I arrived in Asia in when I was 26 years old and have spent nearly half my life here, and I was raised in the Old South of the USA, and I have Cherokee native American blood), that we are on a cycle and nature repeats over and over again, e.g. the Asian religions reflect this such as Buddhism. Asians are more pragmatic and understand the nature of humans is an invariant. Yet even the Asians manage to achieve megadeath also via collectivism.

What really super ticks me off, is when zealots go around telling everybody else what they should do, while not allowing themselves to be called out individually for the great harm they are doing to society. I want to tell them to mind their own fucking business and stop sticking their nose in other people’s business, otherwise do not be surprised if you will get kicked in the face by men who very pissed off about you mofos trying to destroy us with your insane concept of putting females on some pedestal wherein they can have their cake and eat it too. I understood your stance to be that great sacrifice is a great virtue for a man to have, so the implication being that this role should be put on the shoulders of men. But I argue that men are already sacrificing by competing as hard as they can, as nature wants men to do. And women are sacrificing by being the one who bears the children and feels the most responsibility to feed them (even when the man does not feel it because he can make many more kids than a woman can). This is all natural and both are sacrificing. Why meddle?

For you it was a very simple conceptualization that some men are irresponsible fathers thus men need to regulated by the State. I have since over the past months laid out a very complete argument for why you’re incorrect about society being able to make nature perfect and about there being any positive benefits of society attempting to do so. Stop meddling with nature, lest you will create a civil war in the USA and worse. I warned you it is coming, but you fucking ideologues have nearly destroyed the USA and the West. You fell right into the trap and plans of the Zionists, who promulgated all that ideological propaganda. Y’all fell right into the zealot trap.

Note even James A. Donald is advocating the State enforce K strategy, i.e. that men must support their wives and children, but that as a consequence women have no right to divorce or otherwise leverage the regulation of men to fund their leftist and hypergameous tendencies. Even Matthew 19 and the commandment against adultery indicates that females should not be allowed to divorce. The point is that we can’t allow women to have their cake and eat it too. If a group of men want to enforce K strategy, then they need to enforce on both the men and the women, not just on the men as the insane, self-destructive West is currently doing. And that men rather than beating their wives for being incorrigible/irrational bitches, and who can afford to be polygamous (i.e. more than one wife), should thus be allowed to be. Women usually are not super sexually attracted to men who are under their skirt, which means they will constantly shit test her cuckolded husband. But the key here is actually supporting all your wives and children, i.e. making the society more successful. IOW, the most productive men and their culture of high productivity rises to the top and dominates the society thus improving the culture of the society. But nature is never going to allow a perfect K strategy. The R strategy will always seep in, because nature requires it for maximizing resilience of the species. Thus there isn’t any one correct way to organize society. Entropically we need a wide diversity of sociological strategies. Thus I conclude that the evil of the idealists is they want to spread a mayonnaise on diversity. But again I am not omniscient.

So yeah, we’re like oil and water and we are not going to ever understand each other. Period. I have unfortunately resigned myself to this realization.

It’s impossible to not end up attacking each other personally in an ideological debate. For example, the implication of your stances is that I am unethical and a bad person. And ditto vice versa. There’s no avoiding that. So it seems it is best for us to both go back to our separate spaces.

About truth and God, I will only reiterate that the truth can be different for each person and that is okay.

The source of my greatest disagreement with you is your proclamation of absolute truth. All of us are trying to find that, but none of us I think should be so cocky to boast to others that we possess absolute truth. That is why I argue for allowing diversity and allowing for individual paths. Even though you might see great harm in allowing diverse experiments, nature does not agree apparently. For example, if you like the atheist Scandinavian model of socialism or the theistic Israel model of it. The USA is split between northern progressive ideologues, southern Bible belt ideologues, and the pragmatists who straddle some where in between. The USA was glued together by the pragmatists, but now they are being pushed out or forced to choose. That is one reason I left the USA and not sure if I want to come back. I am still trying to analyse if the pragmatists have any constituency anymore.

To the extent any group could achieve any organization of K strategy and not insidiously leak leftism effects out on others outside their group, I would I think probably be very supportive. I’d also be interested in hearing about how they had accomplished it.

Afaics, the most important power of a K strategy grouping is the power to influence the philosophy of the offspring. But the problem is that is leaky, thus K strategy either is fleeting because of being leaky or is has to be zealous mind control. This is a power vacuum, which is why we find the Zionists are in control of it ultimately. Unfortunately I think there is no universal solution. Nature is a chaotic soup.

Quote from: a person we both know, but not CoinCube
The only thing I'll say for now is that my faith was pursued due to a conscious and rational decision; once that decision was made, the rest fell into place as though it were there all along and was simply being revealed.

Conscious maybe, but rational impossible. I would like to see a proof that it was rational. Sorry I refuse to lie to myself about such a decision being rational.

If I choose faith, I should not lie to myself about the basis of my faith, for the deceived are not truly faithful in a true sense of faith. Faith is an understanding that the decision is purely based on faith. Everything else is self-deception.

Let us get into Pascal’s wager in the future. Not now. That is an interesting angle to analyse, but I think I can reason that his argument has no basis.

I also want to contemplate this dilemma (or not being able to reason about faith) more.

There’s something there in terms of (intentional and perhaps unintended) limitations (of both intended scope and perhaps unintended inherent limitations) of the scripture and 10 commandments. Remember Jesus was put to death by the State and the established religion.

On the faith issue, I would agree with CoinCube on the desire to better ourselves and treat mankind better, but I have to pragmatically base in the reality of nature and not let ideological extremism cause me to participate in the totalitarianism. I do not want to raise princesses which are like Ivana Trump (although caveat I have not truly studied nor interacted with her) and who are leftist/progressive leaner wolves in sheepskin.

The sociological issue is a very difficult one to get correct. So far, I just conclude we choose a direction and there is no perfect ideological stance to choose. But I wish I had a better analysis. Will apply more effort to it when I have more free time.

Quote
Almost like a child's attempt to build a machine without understanding exactly what he is doing.

Yup.




EDIT: I hope to end my participation in this thread for a while because this can consume too much time. I want to add that for example it is a wonderful feeling to walk down the aisle with the woman you love, lift her veil, kiss her and say “I do”. That is very noble and to fulfill her emotions w.r.t. to the institution of marriage is to sustain the motivation and inspiration of young single ladies and provide confirmation happy feelings to the elder ladies. The social institution. As I said, this seemed to perhaps work for men when the society was enforcing the institution of marriage on women and the man could be proud at least that his wife was truly his and that he was the leader of his household and finances to which he was largely responsible.

However, not one size fits all. And others have other ideals and ideas. And times are a changing.

I just wish the world could remain a place of diversity where different ideas and ideals aren’t suffocated by some mayonnaise of universality or totalitarianism on the way to finding out that seeking such universality is futile.
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