Topic: delete - page 15. (Read 27689 times)

I guess you are right, it is the new fad for scam coins, but I think it says something that they think their scam will be more successful by choosing PoS over PoW. They must think there is more demand for PoS coins than PoW coins.. that goes to show how little people in general really care about the "insecurities" of PoS coins. Honestly it is mostly long time Bitcoin/crypto people that are really against PoS.. I'm not sure what to make of that or if there is some underlying reason other than the insecurities.

Also, I was referring to about a year ago when all the scam coins were PoW clone coins. There was something like one a day being released for a long time!


You are right, there are a lot of people smarter than me saying that PoS is broken and a dead end too. I'm not honestly sure what or who to believe. However, the ones that aren't saying that give me hope that there is an answer to the solution. I don't even see the modern PoS variants as being too bad or insecure. Like I said, both PoW and PoS have their pros and cons, but I think PoS will continue to be improved upon.


I agree, feel free to join us in the main PoW/PoS debate thread here!

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/its-about-time-to-turn-off-pow-mining-770591


That's good to know, I am looking forward to whatever you guys may come up with. My understanding was that you guys were focused on only anonymity. I know from debating some of your "hero" member supporters in the past they really hate innovation and call any improvements or added features gimmicks.. so I guess I assumed you guys weren't planning on doing much else since they were supporting Monero (not going to name names.) Anyways.. I will take your word that Monero has other plans and leave it at that.

This is basically it. The set of interesting non-scam cryptocoin projects is very small right now. Monero and just a few others pretty much, so the well-deserved attention Monero gets leads to a crowding-out effect. People who are attached to some particular scamcoin or enjoy the scamcoin-of-the-day scene are put off by the reality that a coin that is actually being developed and gaining a following as a genuine open source project gets more lasting attention and discussion than any one particular scam. This makes them resentful and hateful, but nothing we can do about that.  

I think they don't understand that with or without Monero, the scamcoin game is about up and their beloved altcoin community of scammers and willing victims is in the process of destroying itself anyway. We'll just continue pushing forward.

I agree with you that mining centralization is a problem that needs fixing. But PoW cannot be abandoned, because the only way to create value as a measure of GDP must come at the expense of GDP. This truth has been reinforced for thousands of years and I'm doubtful that some clever programming will ever change it. Satoshi's solutions were innovative, but they also didn't violate any rules of the universe.

BTW: AnonyMint hinted that a solution to centralized mining could be to somehow make mining always unprofitable, that way all mining comes from individual nodes contributing miniscule amounts of hashpower while their wallets are open.

I also agree with you 100% that tx fees will not sustain miners when block rewards vanish. I have talked about this a lot in other threads. Again, this is not a problem with PoW, only with bitcoin's implementation of it. It is the myth of the finite money supply. Block rewards don't have to vanish as new coins can be minted on demand as long as GDP is expended in the process. But this is a discussion for another thread.

Regarding innovation: The point I was trying to make was that one coin that devotes all it's resources to perfecting one innovation (i.e. XMR with anonymity) isn't necessarily worse than another coin that tries to tackle several. You and I obviously disagree on what we consider to be "important innovations". However, there's a huge demand for anonymous tech right now, and it's pretty clear that the XMR team wants to get it's flagship feature right before worrying about other bells and whistles.

Perhaps monero seems to be taking over the alt forums because it's been a very hot topic lately. Even if an XMR-specific forum were announced, I doubt XMR related threads and discussion would suddenly go away.

It is my observation that there are far more PoS scam coins. Just look, almost every single altcoin being launched now is PoS (I include in that the ones described as PoW+PoS because that now almost always means a very short PoS phase): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=159.0


You have also been told by people likely smarter than you are that the problems can't be solved, of if not you shut out those opinions, because they certainly are out there, and not hard to find.

I don't think this is really the right thread to have the debate though.

No one involved with Monero is interested in turning it into PoS but that doesn't mean we only want to work on anonymity and that's it. So if you are saying that because we don't believe in PoS we aren't interested in innovating you are right but wrong. We definitely are interested in what we see are other shortcomings with Bitcoin (using that as an example simply because it is the biggest).

You say smart things, but you don't recognize humor.

"Electricity and mechanics of printing paper money." 

What, are you living in the 1870s?

Today they "print money" by adding ledger entries.

This is not about me, the only one trying to make it about me is you.


You cut off the important part of the quote which made my point...  if every ALT coin used this subforum as their main forums. Do I really need to explain this to you guys? wtf.. I estimate there are over 500 Alt coins. If every one of them had only 1 thread and made 1 post per day, each day's posts would go all the way to page 13. That sounds like a clusterfuck to me. If Monero is successful, you can be sure coins in the future will be replicating its marketing techniques a la spamming this subforum.


Not necessarily.. I derailed the thread. BCX may very well have found a vulnerability.. I have no clue.


Worse is a strong statement. PoS and its variants have weaknesses, just like PoW has its weaknesses. However, both are secure enough to have survived this long without any major attacks. Most of the PoS vulnerabilities people harp on it for are just as unlikely as a 51% attack on a well secured PoW network. Both PoW and PoS have their weaknesses, but I just can't get past the amount of energy that is wasted with PoW and see PoS and its variants as better solutions. Whereas some see the PoS variant cup half empty, I see it half full. Imagine if all of the money spent on securing PoW cryptos was spent on improving the infrastructure or investing in the coins themselves.

I am not interested in PoS scam coins, there are just as many PoS scam coins as there are PoW scam coins. I am however interested in coins that tweak and improve upon PoS in some way, as a more secure version of PoS can pop up from all of these different iterations. I am confident it is not "a dead horse", and I have been told by people much smarter than I that there are ways to fix the problems with PoS as it exists today- which as they exist they are still pretty damn secure seeing as though they are still around and thriving today.

Thanks for proving my point about Monero supporters claiming all innovation is gimmicks.

The only two coins I support now are not BTC forks.. BitsharesX and Nxt.. and they are both innovating in more ways than one. Furthermore, they are focused on innovating and improving upon their original innovations. Whereas most mainstream coins consider all innovations as gimmicks, they embrace innovation. It is the innovators that will push cryptocurrencies to the next level, not the naysayers that are fine with cryptocoins just the way they are. Some people might not want more (or improved) features, but on the other hand a lot of people do, otherwise the more innovative coins wouldn't have been able to achieve the market cap and community that they have. It is silly to only cater to one half of the population when you can cater to both and the ones that don't want or need those features/improvements don't have to use them.


You need to be more open minded and hopeful that there is a solution. If everyone thought this way then Satoshi would of never made the huge innovation that was Bitcoin. Everyone thought a trustless decentralized currency was impossible until he came along and did it.

First, there is no reason that consensus has to be reached by mass extreme consumption of electricity and a large waste of processing power, which is one of the major flaws of PoW.

Second, Most PoW zealots can't seem to see into the future like I (and a lot of other people.. the PoS crowd) can in regards to the inevitable centralization of PoW mining. No PoW algorithm can be ASIC proof.. it is not possible. Due to this and economies of scale, all forms of PoW mining will slowly go from decentralized to centralized as large mining conglomerates take over the block chain. The people with the most money to spend and the cheapest power will make all mom and pop miners unprofitable, and at that point they will stop investing/buying ASICs. Over time the block chain will become more and more centralized until it is so centralized that they can do many nefarious things, such as raise transaction fees on a whim by only including transactions into blocks that have X amount of fees, because they decide they are not making enough profit.

Third, once a PoW cryptocurrency exits its inflationary stage of the money supply distribution, it is possible that the transaction fees are not enough to compensate the miners and keep the blockchain secure. We recently saw this with Dogecoin which was one of the first ones in which their emission curve has dramatically stabilized, and they were forced to choose in between death or merge mining with a larger chain. They are still inflationary and can't afford to pay miners enough to secure their chain, imagine how hard of a task that will be for some coins that at some point no more coins will ever be minted. The market caps of PoW currencies and the adoption in the form of every day use will be mandatory for these cryptocurrencies to survive. No one really knows is mass adoption is likely or possible as it is all speculation at this point, but if they don't achieve that then PoW cryptos will be in trouble at some point down the road. Even if they achieve mass adoption, it is still speculation whether or not that will be enough to pay miners to secure the block chains. PoW cryptos may one day be much more expensive to used than PoS cryptos for this reason.

The resources and processing power wasted, the inevitable centralization, and the sustainability are three of the largest issues I see with PoW in the future. I am sure I am forgetting one or two glaring issues as well, but I will leave it here for now.


Lol, OK... I admit that would be pretty damn cool.

C'mon, man, gold bullion is old-style money!  Nobody wants that shit!

 
Sanest thing I've seen around bitcointalk in a looong time

BCX could kill monero imo, good fight is over

Read my post again. Notice I said "decentralized free market". Fiat money is given value by force. That doesn't work in a decentralized market.

There have been several responses from the XMR team, all of them effectively saying, "show us a bug/exploit, and we'll address it." So far BCX has made claims but provided no helpful information whatsoever. This leaves two possibilities:

1) He's full of shit and shouldn't be trusted.
2) He's telling the truth but refusing to help the community in any way, and therefore shouldn't be trusted.

I'm leaning towards #1, but either way he shouldn't be trusted and doesn't have an ounce of credibility left in him. Just to be clear, he's claiming to have an exploit that can kill the coin, but he's not going to use it, nor will he show it to anyone to help fix it. Sounds legit.

Not quite true, proof of work exists in the electricity and mechanics of printing paper money. Come on man, you should know the earth is a closed system and energy is neither lost or created.......just transferred. This is called proof of work.

Johnny Mnemonic, meet the U.S. Treasury, a place where the laws of physics do not apply.

Be honest with yourself. You'd feel differently if it could shoot gold bullion out of its ass. We all would.

To create something out of nothing would violate the first law of thermodynamics. PoW is the only solution because creating value in a decentralized free market depends on the expense of resources.

Please describe how PoW is "flawed" and how an alternative is even possible (hint: it isn't).

Everytime BCX makes a post like this, the coin has huge troubles.  Just read his history.  It is funny that people with only a few posts "aren't scared" of him. 

I see... so you think Monero should die because it isn't incorporating every gimmick feature you think is important.


Careful, you're starting to sound like a BCN troll. How many of those "innovative" alts you support happen to be BTC forks? Oh that's right... all of them.

I agree, except that all the proposed alternatives so far have been worse.

My position is that some sort of Satoshi-level breakthrough is needed to move things forward, not yet another attempt to beat on the PoS or Ripple dead horses with minor tweaks. You have 1000 PoS scam coins in the ANN section if that's what you want.

The Monero project is not opposed to pursuing that, but we don't have any such ideas at the present time. We do have ideas to improve other things, such as some aspects of mining (i.e. tweaks on PoW). We certainly don't think that anonymity is the only way we should innovate.