Do we want to work with money regulators, or keep Bitcoin unregulated? - page 3.

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Quote from: franky1 on June 24, 2013, 04:53:57 PM

Quote from: RodeoX on June 24, 2013, 03:20:53 PM

Quote from: XRcode on June 24, 2013, 01:03:59 PM

We shouldn't even be talking to the government... This is none of their business and it should stay that way.

You have some reading to do my friend. Not only is money their business, it is their money.

correct. money = FIAT. the US government own dollars. so dollars is their business.. not bitcoin

Not quite. "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's" doesn't stop at the coins with his pics on them. All commerce in Caesar's domain is taxable by him. This world is not as soft & fuzzy as you've been lead to believe. Unfortunate fact number one: The government is not stupid. Unfortunate fact number two: You are not the first one to think of taking a country's currency out of equation to avoid taxation. Honest. There were others. Sad conclusion: The clever tax loophole you think you've discovered has been successfully addressed & plugged up. At your expense.

No matter how slow & unwieldy government bureaucracies are, a few millenia is usually enough. Though this is unsettling, governments put plenty of thought into parting you with your delicious caek, and have been for quite a while. That's pretty much what they do, that's how they got to God Mode. No noob is going to pwn them by "not converting into fiat." If you ever wondered why major corporations don't avoid taxation by trading with bricks of gold instead of gobment money, and why you have to pay taxes on your house (where the only fiat involved is the stuff you need to fork over), there's your answer.

QuestionAuthority

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Quote from: XRcode on June 24, 2013, 09:03:17 PM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on June 24, 2013, 01:10:56 PM

Quote from: XRcode on June 24, 2013, 01:03:59 PM

We shouldn't even be talking to the government... This is none of their business and it should stay that way.

Did you just say, "money isn't the governments business?"

No, I said bitcoin is not the governments business.. And it clearly isn't.
So who's going to regulate? The US? Well guess what, the rest of the world doesn't give a shit what the US says.
Besides, according to FINCEN...... Well nevermind they are just a bunch of overbearing dictators that have no respect for the constitution, privacy, or any civil rights rights for that matter.

Government attempts to regulate our bitcoins should be met with fierce opposition, and no negotiations.

Sorry but anything the government chooses to regulate is their business. Honestly, I don't see how a woman's uterus is the governments business but they have been regulating that one for years. I remember reading Roe v. Wade in college and wondering at the time how any government could think that's their business.

I understand your frustration and you're right the rest of the world shouldn't care what happens here and shouldn't react to it. But the truth is the US government isn't isolationist and hasn't really ever been. They put pressures on other governments in various forms to impose their will right or wrong. This means that legislation passed here will be closely watched by other nations and possibly copied. Is this wrong? Probably. Can we change it? Probably not.

I agree that most governments are overbearing and at times dictatorial. Can we change that? Probably not because that requires citizens who care enough to participate in their system of governance in mass and US citizens clearly don't.

Should we strike with fierce opposition? I don't know - you lead and we'll see who follows.

XRcode

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Quote from: QuestionAuthority on June 24, 2013, 01:10:56 PM

Quote from: XRcode on June 24, 2013, 01:03:59 PM

We shouldn't even be talking to the government... This is none of their business and it should stay that way.

Did you just say, "money isn't the governments business?"

No, I said bitcoin is not the governments business.. And it clearly isn't.
So who's going to regulate? The US? Well guess what, the rest of the world doesn't give a shit what the US says.
Besides, according to FINCEN...... Well nevermind they are just a bunch of overbearing dictators that have no respect for the constitution, privacy, or any civil rights rights for that matter.

Government attempts to regulate our bitcoins should be met with fierce opposition, and no negotiations.

edmundedgar

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Quote from: Gabi on June 24, 2013, 08:28:01 AM

Quote

"We can work with regulators to make sure Bitcoin is acceptable to them. For instance we can ensure that it remains possible to track the flow of money through Bitcoin. We can also ensure that there are options if certain funds need to be frozen and blacklisted, due to fraud, theft, or because they encode illegal data. We can work with them to find ways to apply AML rules to Bitcoin transactions and to the exchanges. There are ways to put taxation into Bitcoin itself, so that taxes are automatically applied when a transaction is made. Maybe even one day we'll be required to prevent dangerous levels of deflation. A lot of these changes are technical, such as improving scalability so transactions can remain on the blockchain, developing P2P blacklist technologies, and preventing deflation."

Wtf i missed this mass of bullshit! And this is what the "foundation" want to do?? Well now i understand why some wants it to disappear!

Repeating for people who read the start and end of the thread but not the middle: No, this isn't what the foundation want to do. This is a load of bullshit made up by the OP that nobody wants to do. If you read the original post carefully it's not actually saying they want to do it, but it's phrased in a way to make people think they do.

There's one actual thing in there that the foundation, along with all non-bonkers people, want to do, which is to improve scalability. By throwing that in with all these straw men the OP is trying to make you to think that improving scalability is part of an evil regulatory plot, in the hope that the Bitcoin network will be crippled at a low transaction rate and people who want to make normal transactions will have to use an alternative solution involving a load of quasi-PayPal type companies, which he happens to be building.

QuestionAuthority

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Quote from: marcus_of_augustus on June 24, 2013, 05:46:05 PM

Quote from: RodeoX on June 24, 2013, 03:20:53 PM

Quote from: XRcode on June 24, 2013, 01:03:59 PM

We shouldn't even be talking to the government... This is none of their business and it should stay that way.

You have some reading to do my friend. Not only is money their business, it is their money. ALL COMMERCE IS REGULATED. No exception. Even if you find a gold ring on the street, technically you owe some of it to the government.

Let's get past this foolishness about bitcoin not being regulated. IT IS being regulated while some bitcoiners hide their heads in the sand. The real question is do you want a voice in the regulation process? Or would rather let the government do it for you?

It will be to late when you come here saying "the state took my money!!" The time to act is now, or maybe yesterday.

Your head is in the wrong place.

Do not ask for permission ... if it is not specifically expressed in law that it is illegal ... it is legal. Asking for regulations is like asking a rapist to do it gently.

We're setting our sights too high. Maybe we should just ask for some lube.

marcus_of_augustus

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Eadem mutata resurgo

Quote from: RodeoX on June 24, 2013, 03:20:53 PM

Quote from: XRcode on June 24, 2013, 01:03:59 PM

We shouldn't even be talking to the government... This is none of their business and it should stay that way.

You have some reading to do my friend. Not only is money their business, it is their money. ALL COMMERCE IS REGULATED. No exception. Even if you find a gold ring on the street, technically you owe some of it to the government.

Let's get past this foolishness about bitcoin not being regulated. IT IS being regulated while some bitcoiners hide their heads in the sand. The real question is do you want a voice in the regulation process? Or would rather let the government do it for you?

It will be to late when you come here saying "the state took my money!!" The time to act is now, or maybe yesterday.

Your head is in the wrong place.

Do not ask for permission ... if it is not specifically expressed in law that it is illegal ... it is legal. Asking for regulations is like asking a rapist to do it gently.

franky1

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Quote from: RodeoX on June 24, 2013, 03:20:53 PM

Quote from: XRcode on June 24, 2013, 01:03:59 PM

We shouldn't even be talking to the government... This is none of their business and it should stay that way.

You have some reading to do my friend. Not only is money their business, it is their money.

correct. money = FIAT. the US government own dollars. so dollars is their business.. not bitcoin

Quote from: RodeoX on June 24, 2013, 03:20:53 PM

ALL COMMERCE IS REGULATED. No exception. Even if you find a gold ring on the street, technically you owe some of it to the government.

Let's get past this foolishness about bitcoin not being regulated. IT IS being regulated while some bitcoiners hide their heads in the sand. The real question is do you want a voice in the regulation process? Or would rather let the government do it for you?

It will be to late when you come here saying "the state took my money!!" The time to act is now, or maybe yesterday.

wrong
if you find gold. you keep it. its yours.. if however you convert it to FIAT, you then have to declare your fiat.

same with bitcoin. america does not own bitcoin, so you do not have to declare bitcoin. but when you convert it to fiat then you have to declare it.

FIAT is the governments property.

imagine it another way.. you own a chicken. it lays an egg.. do you pay tax on every egg produced.. no. if you swapped an egg for some bacon, tax?? no.

if you sold your egg for FIAT, income tax.. yes.

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

Quote from: XRcode on June 24, 2013, 01:03:59 PM

We shouldn't even be talking to the government... This is none of their business and it should stay that way.

You have some reading to do my friend. Not only is money their business, it is their money. ALL COMMERCE IS REGULATED. No exception. Even if you find a gold ring on the street, technically you owe some of it to the government.

Let's get past this foolishness about bitcoin not being regulated. IT IS being regulated while some bitcoiners hide their heads in the sand. The real question is do you want a voice in the regulation process? Or would rather let the government do it for you?

It will be to late when you come here saying "the state took my money!!" The time to act is now, or maybe yesterday.

QuestionAuthority

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You lead and I'll watch you walk away.

Quote from: XRcode on June 24, 2013, 01:03:59 PM

We shouldn't even be talking to the government... This is none of their business and it should stay that way.

Did you just say, "money isn't the governments business?"

XRcode

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We shouldn't even be talking to the government... This is none of their business and it should stay that way.

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

Quote from: Gabi on June 24, 2013, 08:28:01 AM

Quote

"We can work with regulators to make sure Bitcoin is acceptable to them. For instance we can ensure that it remains possible to track the flow of money through Bitcoin. We can also ensure that there are options if certain funds need to be frozen and blacklisted, due to fraud, theft, or because they encode illegal data. We can work with them to find ways to apply AML rules to Bitcoin transactions and to the exchanges. There are ways to put taxation into Bitcoin itself, so that taxes are automatically applied when a transaction is made. Maybe even one day we'll be required to prevent dangerous levels of deflation. A lot of these changes are technical, such as improving scalability so transactions can remain on the blockchain, developing P2P blacklist technologies, and preventing deflation."

Wtf i missed this mass of bullshit! And this is what the "foundation" want to do?? Well now i understand why some wants it to disappear!

I don't know who is being quoted here. But the foundation does not have a position like this that I am aware of. There is zero support for something like a backdoor in bitcoin. And "putting taxation" into bitcoin is basically a non-starter. Who's tax, USA, Poland, Zimbabwe?

bitlizard

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Quote from: edd on June 24, 2013, 06:26:12 AM

Quote from: Lethn on June 24, 2013, 01:33:31 AM

Quote

How would these changes get implemented? What kind of a consensus would be required?

As far as I know when it comes to the sort of thing they're talking about the only way they would be able to do any of what they say is through blatantly illegal means like hacking or by taking control of the Bitcoin source code, since this is pretty much impossible to do I'm confident they have their heads in the sky and they're talking bullshit. What the Bitcoin foundation is are a bunch of self-appointed leaders who think they can become a Bitcoin central bank and I think I can safely say the majority of the people here don't give a flying fuck about them.

Implementing new features into Bitcoin is not illegal. The code is open source and anyone can add anything they want to.

Getting people to accept and use the code with the new features is a completely different story, however.

If they were going to try to implement anything I suppose they would make the changes incrementally while releasing software updates through the github repository. Is that correct?

CasinoBit

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Quote from: Gabi on June 24, 2013, 08:28:01 AM

Quote

"We can work with regulators to make sure Bitcoin is acceptable to them. For instance we can ensure that it remains possible to track the flow of money through Bitcoin. We can also ensure that there are options if certain funds need to be frozen and blacklisted, due to fraud, theft, or because they encode illegal data. We can work with them to find ways to apply AML rules to Bitcoin transactions and to the exchanges. There are ways to put taxation into Bitcoin itself, so that taxes are automatically applied when a transaction is made. Maybe even one day we'll be required to prevent dangerous levels of deflation. A lot of these changes are technical, such as improving scalability so transactions can remain on the blockchain, developing P2P blacklist technologies, and preventing deflation."

Wtf i missed this mass of bullshit! And this is what the "foundation" want to do?? Well now i understand why some wants it to disappear!

Sound like a buncha coppers to me, the same way a knife manufacturer shouldn't be forced to make their knifes blunt on purpose so serial killers won't be able to stab people, Bitcoin should remain as efficient as possible and spit in the face of every single person who dares to demand for us to comply with some arbitrary law.

You never see knife manufacturers blamed or put in jail when someone stabs someone else with their knife.

Gabi

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Quote

"We can work with regulators to make sure Bitcoin is acceptable to them. For instance we can ensure that it remains possible to track the flow of money through Bitcoin. We can also ensure that there are options if certain funds need to be frozen and blacklisted, due to fraud, theft, or because they encode illegal data. We can work with them to find ways to apply AML rules to Bitcoin transactions and to the exchanges. There are ways to put taxation into Bitcoin itself, so that taxes are automatically applied when a transaction is made. Maybe even one day we'll be required to prevent dangerous levels of deflation. A lot of these changes are technical, such as improving scalability so transactions can remain on the blockchain, developing P2P blacklist technologies, and preventing deflation."

Wtf i missed this mass of bullshit! And this is what the "foundation" want to do?? Well now i understand why some wants it to disappear!

edd

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Quote from: Lethn on June 24, 2013, 01:33:31 AM

Quote

How would these changes get implemented? What kind of a consensus would be required?

As far as I know when it comes to the sort of thing they're talking about the only way they would be able to do any of what they say is through blatantly illegal means like hacking or by taking control of the Bitcoin source code, since this is pretty much impossible to do I'm confident they have their heads in the sky and they're talking bullshit. What the Bitcoin foundation is are a bunch of self-appointed leaders who think they can become a Bitcoin central bank and I think I can safely say the majority of the people here don't give a flying fuck about them.

Implementing new features into Bitcoin is not illegal. The code is open source and anyone can add anything they want to.

Getting people to accept and use the code with the new features is a completely different story, however.

Lethn

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Quote

How would these changes get implemented? What kind of a consensus would be required?

As far as I know when it comes to the sort of thing they're talking about the only way they would be able to do any of what they say is through blatantly illegal means like hacking or by taking control of the Bitcoin source code, since this is pretty much impossible to do I'm confident they have their heads in the sky and they're talking bullshit. What the Bitcoin foundation is are a bunch of self-appointed leaders who think they can become a Bitcoin central bank and I think I can safely say the majority of the people here don't give a flying fuck about them.

xxjs

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No way

bitlizard

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Please help a non tech person understand the following:

"We can work with regulators to make sure Bitcoin is acceptable to them. For instance we can ensure that it remains possible to track the flow of money through Bitcoin. We can also ensure that there are options if certain funds need to be frozen and blacklisted, due to fraud, theft, or because they encode illegal data. We can work with them to find ways to apply AML rules to Bitcoin transactions and to the exchanges. There are ways to put taxation into Bitcoin itself, so that taxes are automatically applied when a transaction is made. Maybe even one day we'll be required to prevent dangerous levels of deflation. A lot of these changes are technical, such as improving scalability so transactions can remain on the blockchain, developing P2P blacklist technologies, and preventing deflation."

How would these changes get implemented? What kind of a consensus would be required?

td services

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black swan hunter

Quote from: aigeezer on June 23, 2013, 10:53:50 AM

Attempts to appease "the authorities" are taking a predictable turn: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/2013-06-23-forbes-bitcoin-foundation-receives-cease-and-desist-order-from-ca-241302

Doug Jackson of e-gold bent over forwards, complying with every request, and still got it hard with no grease.

There is no negotiating with terrorists.

QuestionAuthority

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Quote from: AquaticBob on June 23, 2013, 12:25:02 PM

I'd rather bitcoin stay unregulated.

I'd rather Megan Fox blow me than spank it myself but just like passing regulations that's outside my control.

Topic: Do we want to work with money regulators, or keep Bitcoin unregulated? - page 3. (Read 19192 times)