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Topic: Donetsk, Kharkov, Lugansk - way to Russia. - page 291. (Read 734937 times)

legendary
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the questions is why dint the west send observers if they support the democracy concept ? why are the west against the referendum on the first place ? if the Ukrainian Junta is so confident why they dont allow the referendum ? it will fail anyway no ?

"Referendum" is the West's new no-no undemocratic word right there along with "terrorism".  Tongue



People's Republic of Lugansk refuses to participate in the Ukrainian presidential elections:
http://www.interfax.ru/world/375810



A resident of Krivoj Rog demands that his house is annexed to Russia. Cheesy
http://lenta.ru/news/2014/05/12/ask/



Janukovich demands that EU-backed Kiev junta pull the military from the South-East. He said that "you can ignore the results of the referendum despite the turnout, but you cannot ignore the fact that there are no terrorists in the South-East, and the the war is waged on the own people."
http://www.interfax.ru/world/375811
legendary
Activity: 3808
Merit: 1219
the questions is why dint the west send observers if they support the democracy concept ? why are the west against the referendum on the first place ? if the Ukrainian Junta is so confident why they dont allow the referendum ? it will fail anyway no ?

Why should the EU sent its agents to the referendum, which is anti-EU in nature? Despite whatever BS the Western media is churning out, the support for independence runs at around 70% in Donetsk and even more in Lugansk.
legendary
Activity: 938
Merit: 1000
chaos is fun...…damental :)
i dint read the last pages of the thread

the questions is why dint the west send observers if they support the democracy concept ? why are the west against the referendum on the first place ? if the Ukrainian Junta is so confident why they dont allow the referendum ? it will fail anyway no ?



EU atm it has a track record that will shame anyone that supports democracy, anyone remember the Greek bailout referendum ? or the EU constitution referendum's ?
legendary
Activity: 3808
Merit: 1219
And be honest , do you really think those numbers are real?
Even Jesus won't get that many votes pro when running for pope Smiley

Most of those, who were opposed to Russia actually boycotted the poll (~25% in Donetsk, 19% in Lugansk), rather than going to the polling booth to record NO. So I believe that the polls are somewhat accurate.

BTW... final results from the referendum.

Donetsk:

Polling: 74.87%
For: 89.07%
Against:  10.19%
Invalid: 0.74%

Lugansk:

Polling: 81%
For: 90.53%
Against: 9.04%
Invalid: 0.43%
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 501
in defi we trust
The figures from Lugansk are out. 96.2% voted for independence. That is much stronger voice for independence when compared to Donetsk (89%)> Have to remember that the turnout in Lugansk was higher than that in Donetsk as well.

And be honest , do you really think those numbers are real?
Even Jesus won't get that many votes pro when running for pope Smiley

I think those numbers are real, from the base of those who decided to participate in the voting. Plus, from the recent set of events, the emotions are flying high. I read several accounts of those who were hedging, saying they made their minds after Odessa and Mariupol.

I would have believed a 80-85% , but a 96%? No.
There are other factors , people have families spread across the country , the ever persisting fear every human has of the unknown , and many more. Plus it's impossible that there are no pro ukriane that voted in that region. At least the relatives of politicians that might lose their income source..

That's why I doubt any 90% votes , in any situation.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1014
The figures from Lugansk are out. 96.2% voted for independence. That is much stronger voice for independence when compared to Donetsk (89%)> Have to remember that the turnout in Lugansk was higher than that in Donetsk as well.

And be honest , do you really think those numbers are real?
Even Jesus won't get that many votes pro when running for pope Smiley

I think those numbers are real, from the base of those who decided to participate in the voting. Plus, from the recent set of events, the emotions are flying high. I read several accounts of those who were hedging, saying they made their minds after Odessa and Mariupol.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 501
in defi we trust
I think that I'll add such text wall posters into ignore list, if this kind of practices would coutinue.

I'm not a fan of the ignore feature. As always there are two kinds of truth out there so ignoring one might be misleading.
But i'm glad to hear that i'm not the only reader who think that text walls should stop.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 501
in defi we trust
The figures from Lugansk are out. 96.2% voted for independence. That is much stronger voice for independence when compared to Donetsk (89%)> Have to remember that the turnout in Lugansk was higher than that in Donetsk as well.

And be honest , do you really think those numbers are real?
Even Jesus won't get that many votes pro when running for pope Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3808
Merit: 1219
The figures from Lugansk are out. 96.2% voted for independence. That is much stronger voice for independence when compared to Donetsk (89%)> Have to remember that the turnout in Lugansk was higher than that in Donetsk as well.
legendary
Activity: 3108
Merit: 1359
I think that I'll add such text wall posters into ignore list, if this kind of practices would coutinue.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1014
This thread is no longer a discussion , it's a propaganda war with people posting news. Why the hell do you post the entire wall of text just to make my mouse wheel scream?
Post the link and that's all.

I agree with you there. Posting a link, with a short quote for the lazy ones is enough.

I also think that the initial intent of this thread was to collect news items pertaining to the events. The events are usually reflected in the news, preferably the first-hand sources.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 501
in defi we trust
This thread is no longer a discussion , it's a propaganda war with people posting news. Why the hell do you post the entire wall of text just to make my mouse wheel scream?
Post the link and that's all.
legendary
Activity: 3808
Merit: 1219
Slavyansk referendum yesterday, and the word is they could hold another referendum here on the 18th, to 'join up with Russia'. Check this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8bSqXwTWsM
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1014
94-98% voted for independence of Lugansk, according to preliminary results:
http://ria.ru/world/20140512/1007424960.html

Russia's polling Levada center got poll results, showing that Russians are not afraid of a new iron curtain:
http://www.newsru.com/russia/12may2014/zanaves.html

Kremlin commented the result of the referendum, saying it views them with respect:
http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/news/2014/05/12/n_6145741.shtml

Turchinov called it a farce:
http://www.regnum.ru/news/polit/1800377.html
(Yeah, it's only 89% present of the population taking part, so it's totally insignificant. The West must learn the new totally undemocratic word "referendum", which is right there on the same level as "terrorism")

Androshuk chief of police of Mariupol, who shot at police offices and started the massacre, is alive and has been released:
http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/966976/rambler

Resistance reports about new casualties after artillery shelling of Slavjansk:
http://ria.ru/world/20140512/1007439367.html
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1014
This era's most extreme international crime, the United States-United Kingdom invasion of Iraq, was therefore not a break in world order—because, after failing to gain international support, the aggressors didn't cross Russian or Chinese red lines.

In contrast, Putin's takeover of the Crimea and his ambitions in Ukraine cross American red lines.

They again fail to mention Yugoslavia as the most extreme crime.  Undecided

How can Crimea's joining Russia, Crimea with a predominantly Russia population, Russian naval port, and Russia territory of the last 300 years be crossing American red line. It does not compute. Or have they already placed a NATO base there in their minds in internal maps?
legendary
Activity: 3808
Merit: 1219
http://rt.com/news/eastern-ukraine-army-operation-680/

Quote
“Counting the ballots proved to be surprisingly easy – the number of people who said ‘no’ was relatively small and there appeared to be only a tiny proportion of spoiled ballots, so we managed to carry out counting quite fast. The figures are as follows: 86.7 percent voted ‘for’, 10.19 percent voted ‘against’ and 0.74 percent of ballots were rendered ineligible,” Lyagin told journalists.

Quote
Ukrainian troops have begun shelling Slavyansk, Donetsk Region, a RIA Novosti correspondent on the ground reports. Blasts of artillery ammunition can be heard at one of the checkpoints on the outskirts of town.
sr. member
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Merit: 250
CЛABЯHCК, 12 мaя — PИA Hoвocти. Укpaинcкиe cилoвики в пoнeдeльник yтpoм нaчaли apтиллepийcкий oбcтpeл Cлaвянcкa, пepeдaeт кoppecпoндeнт PИA Hoвocти.
 Ha oкpaинe гopoдa в paйoнe блoкпocтa в нaпpaвлeнии ceлa Aндpeeвкa cлышны paзpывы apтиллepийcкиx бoeпpипacoв.
 Пocлeдний paз yкpaинcкaя apмия oбcтpeливaлa Cлaвянcк минyвшeй нoчью.
 PИA Hoвocти пoкa нe yдaeтcя cвязaтьcя c блoкпocтoм, тaк кaк в гopoдe cepьeзныe пpoблeмы c мoбильнoй cвязью.


 PИA Hoвocти http://ria.ru/world/20140512/1007428398.html#ixzz31Tp8L5oX
sr. member
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Chomsky: US Leaders' Panic Over Crimea Is About Fear of Losing Global Dominance
American red line are firmly placed at Russia's borders...and the annexation of Crimea crossed them.

May 3, 2014  | 
The current Ukraine crisis is serious and threatening, so much so that some commentators even compare it to the Cuban missile crisis of 1962.

Columnist Thanassis Cambanis summarizes the core issue succinctly in The Boston Globe: “[President Vladimir V.] Putin's annexation of the Crimea is a break in the order that America and its allies have come to rely on since the end of the Cold War—namely, one in which major powers only intervene militarily when they have an international consensus on their side, or failing that, when they're not crossing a rival power's red lines.”

This era's most extreme international crime, the United States-United Kingdom invasion of Iraq, was therefore not a break in world order—because, after failing to gain international support, the aggressors didn't cross Russian or Chinese red lines.

In contrast, Putin's takeover of the Crimea and his ambitions in Ukraine cross American red lines.

Therefore “Obama is focused on isolating Putin's Russia by cutting off its economic and political ties to the outside world, limiting its expansionist ambitions in its own neighborhood and effectively making it a pariah state,” Peter Baker reports in The New York Times.

American red lines, in short, are firmly placed at Russia's borders. Therefore Russian ambitions “in its own neighborhood” violate world order and create crises.

The point generalizes. Other countries are sometimes allowed to have red lines—at their borders (where the United States' red lines are also located). But not Iraq, for example. Or Iran, which the U.S. continually threatens with attack (“no options are off the table”).

Such threats violate not only the United Nations Charter but also the General Assembly resolution condemning Russia that the United States just signed. The resolution opened by stressing the U.N. Charter ban on “the threat or use of force” in international affairs.

The Cuban missile crisis also sharply revealed the great powers' red lines. The world came perilously close to nuclear war when President Kennedy rejected Premier Khrushchev's offer to end the crisis by simultaneous public withdrawal of Soviet missiles from Cuba and American missiles from Turkey. (The U.S. missiles were already scheduled to be replaced by far more lethal Polaris submarines, part of the massive system threatening Russia's destruction.)

In this case too, the United States' red lines were at Russia's borders, and that was accepted on all sides.

The U.S. invasion of Indochina, like the invasion of Iraq, crossed no red lines, nor have many other U.S. depredations worldwide. To repeat the crucial point: Adversaries are sometimes permitted to have red lines, but at their borders, where America's red lines are also located. If an adversary has “expansionist ambitions in its own neighborhood,” crossing U.S. red lines, the world faces a crisis.

In the current issue of the Harvard-MIT journal International Security, Oxford University professor Yuen Foong Khong explains that there is a “long (and bipartisan) tradition in American strategic thinking: Successive administrations have emphasized that a vital interest of the United States is to prevent a hostile hegemon from dominating any of the major regions of the world.”

Furthermore, it is generally agreed that the United States must “maintain its predominance,” because “it is U.S. hegemony that has upheld regional peace and stability”—the latter a term of art referring to subordination to U.S. demands.

As it happens, the world thinks differently and regards the United States as a “pariah state” and “the greatest threat to world peace,” with no competitor even close in the polls. But what does the world know?

Khong's article concerns the crisis in Asia, caused by the rise of China, which is moving toward “economic primacy in Asia” and, like Russia, has “expansionist ambitions in its own neighborhood,” thus crossing American red lines.

President Obama's recent Asia trip was to affirm the “long (and bipartisan) tradition,” in diplomatic language.

The near-universal Western condemnation of Putin includes citing the “emotional address” in which he complained bitterly that the U.S. and its allies had “cheated us again and again, made decisions behind our back, presenting us with completed facts with the expansion of NATO in the East, with the deployment of military infrastructure at our borders. They always told us the same thing: 'Well, this doesn't involve you.' “

Putin's complaints are factually accurate. When President Gorbachev accepted the unification of Germany as part of NATO—an astonishing concession in the light of history—there was a quid pro quo. Washington agreed that NATO would not move “one inch eastward,” referring to East Germany.

The promise was immediately broken, and when Gorbachev complained, he was instructed that it was only a verbal promise, so without force.

President Clinton proceeded to expand NATO much farther to the east, to Russia's borders. Today there are calls to extend NATO even to Ukraine, deep into the historic Russian “neighborhood.” But it “doesn't involve” the Russians, because its responsibility to “uphold peace and stability” requires that American red lines are at Russia's borders.

Russia's annexation of Crimea was an illegal act, in violation of international law and specific treaties. It's not easy to find anything comparable in recent years—the Iraq invasion is a vastly greater crime.

But one comparable example comes to mind: U.S. control of Guantanamo Bay in southeastern Cuba. Guantanamo was wrested from Cuba at gunpoint in 1903 and not relinquished despite Cuba's demands ever since it attained independence in 1959.

To be sure, Russia has a far stronger case. Even apart from strong internal support for the annexation, Crimea is historically Russian; it has Russia's only warm-water port, the home of Russia's fleet; and has enormous strategic significance. The United States has no claim at all to Guantanamo, other than its monopoly of force.

One reason why the United States refuses to return Guantanamo to Cuba, presumably, is that this is a major harbor and American control of the region severely hampers Cuban development. That has been a major U.S. policy goal for 50 years, including large-scale terror and economic warfare.

The United States claims that it is shocked by Cuban human rights violations, overlooking the fact that the worst such violations are in Guantanamo; that valid charges against Cuba do not begin to compare with regular practices among Washington's Latin American clients; and that Cuba has been under severe, unremitting U.S. attack since its independence.

But none of this crosses anyone's red lines or causes a crisis. It falls into the category of the U.S. invasions of Indochina and Iraq, the regular overthrow of parliamentary regimes and installation of vicious dictatorships, and our hideous record of other exercises of “upholding peace and stability.”

© 2014 Noam Chomsky Distributed by The New York Times Syndicate
http://www.alternet.org/putins-takeover-crimea-scares-us-leaders-because-it-challenges-americas-global-dominance?page=0%2C0&paging=off¤t_page=1#bookmark
sr. member
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