Topic: DragonMint T1 16TH/S halongmining.com - page 44. (Read 87857 times)

So the attacks have started...don't get fooled by useless propaganda. This topic is for the hardware part not for discussion politics. Shush away Bitmain's shills!

We do know Yoshi Goto is head of Halong Mining.

He would be the one we go after if something were to happen.

I've been buying ASICs since late 2012 and I find nothing unusual about Halong's approach, especially with the information that was revealed about overt ASICBoost. In my opinion, this moves towards equality, and unity in the sector. There are powerful actors in the field that will want to mitigate that progress as much as possible for selfish reasons, and for that very reason, I understand how discrete a company in the forefront will want to be. As for safety, the worst experience I've personally had with thousands of miners were KNC connectors, which at times had 300w through a single PCI, causing the worst failure rate of any units I've ever had.


If Bernie made ASIC hardware and actually delivered it as Halong continues to do, yes. I find it fairly divisive that Bitmain, for instance, accepts crypto payments in only BCH currently. I would find it commendable that any hardware manufacturer opens up payments to other cryptos, especially ones that they specifically sell miners for.

As long as the units are being delivered as advertised, I see nothing wrong with Halong. So far, all the T1's have been within specifications. I expect the other offerings to follow suit, and will report back on my Blake miners when I receive them.

As for anything, caveat emptor. If you are not confident in purchasing any gear, no one is forcing you to do so. Continue sleuthing if you feel there are legitimate concerns, everyone has a different set of qualifications they look for in that. Wait it out and check out some of the reviews and confirmations of delivery, and if you're feeling it, have at it. Having done my research and meeting Scott Offord in person, I've felt comfortable with my purchases, and I look forward to the future offerings that are in store. As always, I'm happy to share my experiences with this company with this community.

Yes. And isn't great how efficiently information can be shared about highly questionable business practices?



No one is asking Halong to debate anything. We have simply asked Halong to share the most basic kind of information that legitimate businesses worldwide uniformly share about themselves. That would take them 5 minutes to post. (No exaggeration.) We really just need Halong to post: (1) its incorporation number, and (2) its FCC certificate number. Do you honestly find that an overly burdensome request? That could be a one sentence post.



How is the lack of accountability by a business a "good thing"? Hypothetically, if a serious, dangerous design defect in the DragonMint exists, or if an innocent 3rd party can conclusively prove that Halong engaged in theft of its intellectual property, how exactly is that lack of accountability a good thing? We have no idea who Halong Mining is, no idea where they are, and no idea how to hail them into court should a valid case arise at some future point. That is not a good thing.



Did you read about how Halong has censored its Telegram Group and banned users from it? That's not accessibility. That's shameful and shady.... If Bernard Madoff had accepted half a dozen crypto payment methods directly before his illegitimate business was exposed, would you have found his company "commendable" too?

Maybe they have to pay a "listing fee"  

There's a good amount of units in the wild being confirmed! I should get my Blakes at the tail end of this week too.


Isn't it great to have the option of buying what you want?

I'd rather Halong spend time into their business, hardware, and delivering than to debating every topic on the forums. This is a multi-billion dollar industry, and any disruption that happens such as what Halong is doing and continues to do is certain to rile feathers in this business sector. This is a good thing. Look at how much the S9's are being flooded out into the market. This most recently reminds me of Spoondolies and their offerings and Bitmain's general shadowing and flooding responses. While it may not be directly primary factor, it's definitely a contributing factor. Again, this is a good thing for consumers, and if Halong navigates through the waves correctly, they'll continue to gain market share.

I for one am grateful that a company accessible and responsive through multiple avenues, it's something that is commendable. Have we ever seen a manufacturer that has delivered miners accept more than half a dozen crypto payment methods directly?

That isn't actually how business works. Fulfillment of promises is one part. Allowing yourself and your company to be held accountable for your actions is quite another. You have done everything possible to obfuscate your identity, to operate in a shadowy manner, to evade the reach of regulatory authorities including the judicial system and law enforcement. If a consumer or business has a valid legal claim against Halong Mining, hypothetically, for design defect or theft of intellectual property, you have left no path in which such a claim could be resolved by a neutral third party. That is completely unacceptable in business. No legitimate business operates that way. New paradigm? Nonsense. The paradigm for accountability has not changed. The paradigm for applying for a business license has not changed. The paradigm for disclosing your jurisdiction of incorporation has not changed. The paradigm for having a registered agent who can receive service of process for a valid legal claim has not changed. The paradigm for application of FCC certification when selling to U.S. customers has not changed. Basic standards for legitimate business operation exist internationally. Halong Mining meets none of them and arrogantly dismisses them as "just fluff."

You have claimed an FCC certification of the DragonMint T1, but you provide no evidence of it, and despite best efforts, no one can find it. When questioned in this forum about it, you refused to provide it. The FCC's online searchable database yields no results for it. This troubling discrepancy, coupled with your (1) unknown identity, (2) your unknown jurisdiction of incorporation, (3) your unknown managers, (4) your unknown engineers, (5) your unknown safety compliance standards, make it impossible for any responsible datacenter business to allow the DragonMint T1 to be hosted in its facility without liability shifting to the datacenter should it burn down due to a DragonMint design defect. We do not know who you are, and we cannot hold you accountable. We need to know that you are not crooks, that you've not stolen intellectual party from innocent third parties, that you are above-board players. We need to know that you recognize that these questions are fair game and reasonable to ask of you.

We should all ask ourselves: what exactly is it that Halong Mining has to fear? Why does it refuse to make available such basic information about itself, i.e., the kind of information that legitimate businesses worldwide uniformly provide?

I had genuinely hoped that Halong Mining would step-up, answer these legitimate and lingering questions, and become an above-board player. I am one of your customers (April Batch 2). I impulsively bought many DM units. (My mistake, never again.) I wanted to know I can safely plug them in, and that I am not jeopardizing the safety of others. I also wanted other would-be customers to see the kind of unusual business standards that Halong Mining employs. You said last month that you were operating in such secrecy out of necessity due to sensitive negotiations regarding the AsicBoost patent, but that period has passed now, the cat is out of the bag, and you still refuse to operate above-board. I agree with you about one thing. Consumers will make their own decisions based on the information available on whether to buy from Halong Mining. Unfortunately, your decisions have severely damaged Halong Mining's brand equity before it even completed its first batch delivery.


Convenient. A Telegram Group that you moderate, in which you can censor posts, avoid accountability and legitimate questions, and ban users. No thank you. A number of those users have already reported in this thread that you have removed them from your Telegram Group. This forum is frequented by some of the most reputable, most merited individuals in the crypto community. It also contains others, your customers, including myself. It is interesting that you say you do not monitor this forum, because I have noticed on your Bitcointalk profile page every time I have checked that you have usually logged in within the last few hours. If you want to be taken seriously, I suggest you engage with the community here in an open, candid way and set the record straight about your company's legitimacy. Answer the kinds of questions that legitimate businesses are happy to answer. On the other hand, your remaining silent on these questions is an answer in and of itself.

That's fair - but be upfront about it and let us know why you're being so anonymous. Otherwise, you come across shady af.

so when does this thread get moved to "hardware"?  Not sure if we can call this speculation anymore.  Units shipped...check!  People bitching about said units.....check!

Unfortunately, alot of such occur.
When it comes to money, thats how it often is. Big companies do the same thing, big oil companies especially. U should go watch netflix documentary genius regarding the inventor of the TV. He made nothing in the end thanks to lawsuits,etc. Banks facilitate financial crimes all the time and they will get fined later but claim no wrongdoing. U may wanna look at netflix documentary dirty money on HSBC.
However, those are more extreme examples and some are alleged illegal actions, different from this. Pricing products lower to compete and kill off a competitor is somewhat a more normal tactic though.

Just my 2 cents

I'm going to play the devils advocate here for a minute. Imagine a scenario where there is a giant miner manufacturer. They are huge, and extremely powerful, and they will go to any means necessary to cement their position including actions that are immoral, though most of them are within the definition of "legal", and said company had unlimited reserves of money at their disposal for said purposes. They could take actions like appealing zoning variances in various locations, filing frivolous lawsuits against companies, and secretly against individuals via proxies. This company could analyze a competitors supply and distribution chain, find the weakest link, and "attack" there to cause the new company to be late or not be able to deliver on their commitments thereby irreparably damaging their reputation.  Now the questions you need to ask yourself are, "Is there a company that would do things like this?" and "If I were trying to unseat this companies monopoly, would I be a little paranoid until whatever point I had achieved legitimacy, and built up my own cash reserves in order to defend myself?"  Dragonmint is probably in the red still right now and while they may of secured the resources to design and make miners, and ship them out that doesn't mean they have the kind of money on hand to defend themselves legally from an attacker with unlimited reserves. There's alot of money at stake here, and there HAS been an obvious reaction to them with prices all through the market, so it's safe to say, SOMEONES taking them seriously, and is willing to lose money so that Dragonmint doesn't make any.

The 10nm information was given by halongmining. I just quoted it again.
Ebangs 10nm miner is more in the range of 120 J/TH (reported by an bitcointalk user who has the miner in hand). BTW, Ebang removed any efficiency specs from their website, so I assume they have a problem.

In general it makes no sense to make any assumptions about the miner production costs based on the retail price, which is driven by supply and demand (and other BTC specific things like self-mining hardware manufacturer).
10nm should have in general an advantage over 16nm, if the yield is right and the implementation is comparable. But only a price war would discover, who has the lowest production costs and is most competitive. This already happened once and Spondoolies went bankrupt.

And I’m not complaining at all, I’m just saying, that it is nowadays not sufficient to use the newest semiconductor technology (e.g. 10nm or even 7nm) to realize the most competitive mining ASIC.
Either Halong/Eband/GMO did a real bad job at 10/12nm,
or it is still to early to go to this nodes,
or Bitmain/Canaan (and maybe Bitfury, who knows) are heaving a superior implementation at 16nm, which gives them a hard to beat competitive advantage.

U mean the dragonmint is on a 10nm node? Bitmain S9 is now 16nm right? Ebang 10nm miner is about 5k USD, at 18Th at 90watts per TH. It is good but expensive. I dunno how much more expensive producing 10nm is over 16nm but dragons are cheap if compared to Ebang's.

Wat u complained about is normal competition and it occurs in all industries. It is the same reason why mom-and-pop stores cannot compete against Walmart and even big retailers cannot compete against amazon. Amazon has killed tons more competition than bitmain did and ever will. Same with Walmart,etc. Competitors will lower prices to priced others out of the market. It is a normal strategy.

And this is why I wonder why do asic manufacturers compete in this sort of market. Why not focus on some algo that has no asic yet. Dragon can make money there without competition.

Max btc difficulty can rise is about 0.7T per month and this without new manufacturers coming in. Last month till now, it only rose 0.5T. This is why bitmain can now deliver a miner to u in the same week and not need 3 months. It is overcapacity. I hope bitmain fires some workers and lower production but sigh, it seems they have lowered asic price again...sigh.

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Moderator's note: This post was edited by frodocooper to remove a nested quote.

Edited.
I disagree that it is a payout issue.  It is not a coincidence that all the big mining pools are there, where the cheap power is in china.
If u want the cheapest pool, go to kano pool. Their fees are 0.9% if I recall right. U earn a little bit more there but still, u dont see miners flocking there and making it a big pool.

If dragonmints get popular, I believe all pools will have asicboost integration because they want hashrate. They can mine at their usual pool, and not on some new dragonpool

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Moderator's note: This post was edited by frodocooper to trim the quote from Thetaj.

An 10nm ASIC including an AB quad-core only at eye level with Bitmain’s 16nm ASIC in non-AB mode? Interesting.

It seems there are no low hanging fruits for more efficient ASICs anymore. Just to move to the newest technology node is not enough.

Also Ebang failed with a 10nm ASIC to get the “most efficient ASIC” crown. And GMO is not publishing any data about its 12nm prototypes.

Okay......this is alot of bad assumptions so let me go through them 1 by 1.

1. The top 8 Bitcoin pools CURRENTLY are: BTC.com, Antpool, Slushpool, BTC.top, Viabtc, F2pool and Btcc. So pretty close there but not really.
2. While true that many people choose to point their miners to the bigger pools, the reason isn't because of geography. The reason is PAYOUT. It has always been payout and will continue to be payout for the forseeable future. I have noted time and time again that while it is all well and good that western pools do PPLNS or variations there-of. It is not a good payout scheme severely limits the competitiveness of the pool. This is because most Miners NEED a fixed secure payout in order to turn a reasonable profit through various methods (which I will not go into here). Having PPLNS payout means the POOL is safe, but the miners mining on that pool is taking the risk. Take Bitcoin.com for example, they are a shitpool run by an asshole, but Many people still mine on there, why? Safe payout.
3. Decentralization is already occuring, it is just that there isn't alot of money to be made in making mining pools. So the people who operate mining pools are usually ones that make money off other things as well. Mining pool is just a small +. If someone starts a new mining pool with 105% PPS and a stable pay you bet your ass people are going to mine there.
4. If the dragonmints become popular, the most likely scenario is Halong makes a mining pool for the dragonmints and optimize it for ASICBOOST. The real question is: Do they have the liquidity needed.

Many of the newer miners forget but the reason why so many asic manufacturers died couple years back was because of this liquidity problem. Its not just the gear, its the service as well. Learn from Bitmain and why they are successful. Hate them if you want but they know how to survive

Can we stop with this decentralization bullshit? Dont make stuff up just to market self as if it is helping bitcoin or something. Look, u did this to make profit. And slushpool promoted it because they hoped to get more hashrate on their pool, to profit as well. Nothing wrong there but lets stop bullshitting.

https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/mining/pools/
The top 8 bitcoin pools are antpool, btc.top, btc.com, bixin, btcc.com pool, f2pool, viabtc bwpool. All in china. Number 10 is slushpool with 3% of all blocks.

The antminer S9 and other miners can be pointed at ANY pool. The S9 is pointed to antpool and f2pool by default but it isnt pointed at btc.top,btc.com, bixin or viabtc pool,etc. People CHOOSE TO point their miners to pools of their choice. S9 standard settings can only point to 3 pools as it is, not 8. People CHOSE to make these china pools big. The main reason is because china has alot of cheap power and thus, most of the miners and pools run there. The only way decentralization can occur is if china kicks these miners out of china and that will be if coal, which is used to power these miners, pollutes the air too much.

If dragonmints get popular, all these china-pools will also have asicboost protocol implemented into their pools and the chinese miners that buy dragonmints, will put it in china together with the pool they have always been using for their S9s and Avalons. Why not promote your products because they actually work well, because there is good non-bs communication and good after sales service. Food for thought.

Horse shit. Running an open and honest business isn’t hard, either. But the way you go about it, no wonders you and MyRig found each other. Shameful all of you.

Let’s take it a step further. It’s illegal to present yourself as incorporated with the State of Colorado if you are not. We can report the to the state AG’s office and let them sniff around. Colorado law states that if they wish to do business in the state, but they are incorporated elsewhere (internationally OR domestically) that they should register as a foreign entity (in this case foreign is defined as outside of Colorado). If their terms invoke Colorado as jurisdiction, but they have no legal presence in Colorado, that’s a problem in several ways.

Also, the UPS Store where their box is registered was required by United States Postal Service regulations to obtain proper identification from whomever registered their mailbox there. If they’re acting illegally in the state, a complaint to the US Postal Inspector should drum up that information as well.

For all the hating folks do on Bitmain, as least we know whom, what, and where they are. Halong likes to talk about people “making their own decisions” yet they don’t give up any of the information necessary to do so properly. “Trust us, we’re awesome...” isn’t good enough.

And to hear the machines, after all of this hullabaloo and smoke and mirrors and obfuscation and dodgery, don’t even work to specs. This is unreal.

Just wanted to drop by and inform that we do not monitor this BCT thread nor is it somewhere we make an effort to provide updates. Please rely on our twitter feed at https://twitter.com/halongmining and the blog on the website https://halongmining.com/blog which we will update just as soon as the B miner series start being received (they're already shipping).

If you have specific customer support issues please use the contact form on the website to enter into the official support channel - we do not provide support over social media (although sometimes we may it should not be taken as an official route and we do not guarantee any comments will be read).

Overall, we are glad to have finally come to the point of actually shipping. There should be a steady flow of orders. Please note April and May are busy months for public holidays around the world including in Hong Kong, where you can see we're shipping from. This will affect logistics at both sending and receiving destination (another holiday on Thursday 4th April in HK for example).

@DrMann our stance is that each customer able to make their own decisions based on the information available. Reputation is built on fulfilment of promises, the rest is just fluff in actuality. Just look at the blockchain space with so many scams perpetrated by known public faces and entities, none of that protected the victims. The proof is in the pudding. This is a new paradigm, and if you do not feel comfortable about it, that's fine, no-one is forcing anyone to participate.

Competing in this space is incredibly difficult for many reasons. Firstly it's incredibly costly to tape out your own ASICs, especially for new process node (we're using 10nm), the NRE is already ludicrous - not to mention all the cascade of expenses that follow, and yield loss at every stage of the process. Then you have to deal with highly questionable,  anti competitive practices perpetrated by monopolies - like buying out all the components needed to make the miner or making arrangements that they be unavailable to competitors; and of course price wars where they can afford to sell at cost or below cost for long enough to kill competition. It would seem many of the posters in this thread still think of mining back in the days when you only needed a million or two at most from start to finish and there wasn't any strong monopoly.

Decentralization is hard. Halong Mining was started specifically to try an bring a bit more balance to the equation as a response to growing centralization - but the incentives of the Bitcoin system are that of economics incentives. Unfortunately the economics have become incredibly challenging for newcomers in order to enter and thrive in.

Overall, we'd like to thank everyone who has supported the project in spirit and with their orders.

Miners so far deployed are beginning to show up on the blockchain with the following boosted blocks (you can scan then by comparing ((nversion & 0x1fffe000) > 0) with one exception where the pool was misconfigured #515079. The number of boosted blocks however should be calculated as n/75% since version-rolling uses two bits, so one of the combinations will be 0 and thus look like a normal nversion.

513424 : https://btc.com/000000000000000000299bafb05053bb4f043b7425848abdd57a6eadbe404393
514882 : https://btc.com/0000000000000000003aeeeb86c897beda31ee4ec48741828f938b7c1be5cf3d
515079 : https://btc.com/0000000000000000003eafe39550a6ec74ab0ed93e46d188af94ced3a22c4b7c
515787 : https://btc.com/0000000000000000002eb1b5293b815d8b1f82169c317e46d8466feb6fd0b381
515875 : https://btc.com/000000000000000000400f69fc0a650317f8c5cd32e612e4e6e414d4d57d33e1
516222 : https://btc.com/0000000000000000001fc4a7dc2a05a7cad101de54a8ea89db498af53e7e8738

And finally here is some eyecandy from Twitter.

https://twitter.com/perforollc/status/981247526836887552
https://twitter.com/chadl2/status/981240773269061632
https://twitter.com/HalongMining/status/981159375715950592
https://twitter.com/benlat/status/980981687017398272
https://twitter.com/chiefyx/status/980982295304851462
https://twitter.com/TheStalwart/status/980265325928345600

We will favourite or RT the unboxings as they come, so please follow the twitter feed. There is also an unofficial chat on Telegram, https://t.me/dragonmint but this is not for support, please see above - the only support we provide is through official support channel and as a rule we do not monitor this forum.

Scott, by no means has someone conducted due diligence as it is responsibly performed in business today by reviewing an email attachment of a sales agreement form. At best that is 1% of the process of due diligence.

An illegitimate operator could wholesale copy the best "sales agreement" form on the planet from someone who is legitimate. A Microsoft Word document or PDF proves nothing about the party's legitimacy. Nothing. Conducting due diligence on a company involves much more than reviewing a form they could email you. To "consider the terms" as you said, you have to know who it is you're dealing with. That's why you have to know, at a minimum, the public record of that incorporated entity within the jurisdiction in which it operates. That keeper of records is typically the secretary of state's office (at least for U.S. based companies).

Once you have that information, then you can understand who the parties are, who is its registered agent, where is its principal place of business, where is its registered agent's office, are these offices real places and presently occupied, who are the neighbors at those offices, what do those neighbors have to say about them, where does the business conduct its banking, which law firm represents them, who is their CPA, who are some of their customers, have they made the necessary filings with the government to keep their charter active, have they paid their annual corporate franchise taxes, who are their executive managers, where did those managers work previously, where did they obtain their degrees, what mutual contacts do you have, what do the mutual contacts have to say about them, do the managers have good track records, do the managers have criminal records, do the managers have a history of fair dealing, have they received any recognition by reputable publications.

Once you have answered those questions, then you have scratched the surface of conducting due diligence.

In the case of Halong Mining, we don't even know a real person's name who is an actual employee there. Not one person. This is a company that has supposedly spent $30 million USD in R&D, and there isn't one verifiable engineer or manager who is willing to claim publicly his or her employment with them. How big of a labor force do you think $30 million could buy? Doesn't that strike anyone as even a little strange?