Topic: Everything you wanted to know about Grayscale BTC Trust but were afraid to ask! - page 3. (Read 17175 times)

I reckon might it be good to create a basic estimation on all of DCG's payables and use that to also estimate when Grayscale might stop dumping on our faces based on the amount of bitcoin that they are selling per day.

This is head shaking for Barry because he was criticizing the hedgefunds and the institutional traders in the cryptospace as high risk. It appears that he was one of them hehehe.

The ETF world is evolving fast.

ETF's are coming way more aligned:

There are a couple of graphs from James Seyfarth.

The premium/discounts are getting closer and closer:




The arbitrage band is then closing:



This represents the higher premium less, the wider discount. If IBIT is 0.5% premium and GBTC is -2.5%, or 2.5% discount, then the arbitrage band is 0.5%+2.5%=3%

The machine is cranking up, and the market forces are pushing APs to be more efficient at creation/redemption and closing arbitrage possibilities.

I guess taking advantage would just be the best instead of worrying about what they are doing, dip buys rules 🥳🥳🥳

update: grayscale holdings 523,516btc



just treat it as discount season. last chance to buy low compared to start of month before the growth towards 2025 ATH

i was expecting coinbase as custodian (central reserve) to OTC(coinbase prime) trade privately in-cash between two interested AP(agent/brokers) wanting to move between different ETF

fees are more of a deterrent for new AP grabbing btc and wanting to lock into grayscale
grayscale needs to offload its own stash to pay off debt so doesnt want new baskets of shares competing with shares they want their clients redeeming of DCG locked baskets
the fee's are negligible amounts compared to the lumps of debts owed. even if you added up X years of fee's it wont cover the billions of debt
i think its just a shuffle game at the moment for dcg/grayscale. and later they will drop fee's and invite AP back in with new baskets.. or fizzle away

Can anyone really tell why Grayscale decides to sell its btc on coinbase instead of otc? And this excessive selling of spot on coinbase is actually damping the bull run power, I smell something fishy going on here

Speaking about legal fights, I read a very interesting take from Alistair Milne:



This is a very interesting one, and it explains a lot about the current state of things and even why some irrational decisions were made about fees.
The bad news is that apparently a lot of selling is yet to be expected. 

update: gbtc holdings 536,694btc
(that 100k gone in less than a fortnight)


also gemini this week made legal court claims to ~28k btc (31m shares of gbtc's 600m share cap)
confirmation hearing next month (feb 14th)

It also appears that FTX dropped their lawsuit against Grayscale for charging high fees and refusal to redeem their investors' shares. This is headhsaking because as a company, Grayscale can charge an amount they want and was it also known already that GBTC cannot redeem the underlying coins until the trust is converted into an ETF?

In any case, this picture is the joke about Barry in social media heheehheh. Barry jokes will be plenty on this year. Locking this thread will certainly be a mistake hehe.



Bankrupt cryptocurrency exchange FTX's affiliate Alameda Research has dropped a lawsuit against Grayscale Investments that had accused the digital asset manager of "enriching itself at shareholders' expense", a court filing showed on Monday.

Alameda, which filed the lawsuit in a Delaware court in March last year, had also accused Grayscale of charging high fees and refusing to allow investors to redeem their shares from its two crypto-focused trusts, the Grayscale Bitcoin Trust (GBTC) and the Grayscale Ethereum Trust.

Source https://www.reuters.com/legal/ftx-tied-alameda-research-drops-lawsuit-against-grayscale-2024-01-22/

my $1b was pulled from media
looking more into it seems it was 20k btc (ive not looked into Eth as thats not redeemable yet)

yea the 20k btc linked to ftx went out early, just after launch. not this week

If my back-of-the-envelope computations are correct, this sale was all their GBTC stash, and none is left.

They still own a tiny amount of ETHE, but as far as Bitcoin is concerned, they shouldn't be done.
Do you know any resource I can check to prove my stretchy math?

best case, as much as DCG has locked in relation to coins tainted by other projects linked to legal issues.. im not talking about all coin
just the allotment assigned on the books as DCG being sponsors of as a separate entity

Wondering how much more outflows GBTC will get.
My spider sense gets that we are maybe halfway from the total exit. So, after a little more than another week of suffering, the "9" will finally prevail.
Or is it just wishful thinking and GBTC will deplete all its stash?

update(as of 22nd jan)
GBTC holdings 552,681btc
blackrock holdings 39,925btc

so the FTX issues arrises again this week. or finally clawbacks some hidden funds

https://www.reuters.com/technology/ftx-sold-about-1-bln-grayscales-bitcoin-etf-since-its-approval-coindesk-2024-01-22/

ftx had over $1b hidden away in GBTC shares

FTX customers will be a bit happier. as thats another $1b added to the pot scammed customers can get back from the FTX fiasco

it was about 20,000 coins redeemed/sold between ETF launch to monday(before this post)

It would also not be very shocking if Barry knew in advance that they would be dumping bitcoin when GBTC was approved to be converted into an ETF. This is head shaking, however, he might also have shorted bitcoin on January 11 after the SEC's announcement very much similar to how he shorted dogecoin when Elon appeared in Saturday Night Live hehehehe.

@odolvlobo. I disagree. This thread has much knowledge and information and this should continue.

@franky1. Agreed. Also if this thread is locked, I am quite certain someone else would create another GBTC, Barry thread.

GBTC is still unique compared to other ETF. and also has side-drama of the DCG stuff which can still impact it.
i wouldnt suggest locking it. but let it go idle if there is nothing to talk about and people can easily search it and bump it when new pops up

GBTC is pretty unique so far.

• It is the only ETF trading at a discount to NAV, while the others are actually mainly trading at a premium.
• It is by far the most lightly priced of the bunch in terms of bid/ask spread
• It is by far the most liquid of the bung, with volumes racking up to 50% of daily turnover

There is a point in entering Grayscale, even if its fees are astonishingly high when compared to the others.

GBTC still seems unique to me, including that there is going to be an ongoing dynamic in which several of the GBTC incumbent clients are going to gravitate towards other ETFs or ETPs  or whatever they might be called...and there could be some questions about whether they ever get new clients and/or new money or if maybe the ONLY money remaining in GBTC might be those clients who do not have tax-beneficial accounts.

Sure these kinds of discussions could take place on some other thread, but I don't see any real issue or confusion in terms of keeping this thread going, especially there are several of us who are active here and also the topic of GBTC relation and/or difference from other offerings is likely way more interesting than what you are making it out to be.  There probably has never been any kind of situation like this in the history of finances, in which part of the reason that the trade volume is breaking so many records has to do with the preexistence of this GBTC product and how there is likely even some politics and conspiracy theories involved in how GBTC has been or is being treated, including ongoing civil and potential criminal law suits that might end up drying up into nothingness - but even Barry Silbert's resignation is not exactly a resolved issue in terms of his likely still being involved in Grayscale and in other matters, and at some point there were theories of his deserving criminal prosecution, which I doubt that those questions and/or particularities have been resolved either..

So congrats to fillippone for creating a seemingly somewhat evergreen topic in which everything that any of us would want to know but were afraid to ask about Grayscale BTC has not even come close to drying up. 

TLDR: Long live this thread... until it doesn't.   

I suggest that we retire this thread. There is no longer anything unique about GBTC, now that it is an ETP and there are a dozen others just like it.

imagine this
during 2013-2019 you bought housing property at say <$5k /sqr metre
2019-23 value is $10k-$30k/square metre
2024 value is ~$43k/square metre

so you were happy to sell(money upfront) timeshares in your property, for even 50% of 2019-2023 prices as its still profit compared to the <$5/mtr you paid pre 2019
you then syphon off the fiat from time shares into your sister companies.. but you are still at the end of 2023 owner of the deeds to the house and unable to sell the property for legal reasons upto end of 2023

if you ever got in legal trouble the courts take the house leaving the timeshare holders out of pocket with nothing

so now2024 you can let the time share holders redeem shares for house. so you sell the house deed for cash via a property developer/escrow(coinbase premium) and the investors get cash.. and same day investors use cash to buy the house deed but temporarily put it into another property managers scheme (blackrock)

you dont want other managers partnering with you offering their shares in your property manager business as its competition. you want time share people redeeming your shares, to take the properties(deeds) off you

once you offloaded your property. you then set your property management fee to be super low
and then the home owners come back to you. not selling the house back to you. but asking you to be their property manager where you get a commission per time share sold by them

so now you still get recurring income from the property. but the property is no longer in your name. thus the court cant grab it