FIFA World Cup 2026 :Canada/Mexico/United States: Discussion Thread - page 15.

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Quote from: baeva on December 06, 2024, 04:36:31 PM

Whether they can qualify for the World Cup or not will not change the number of viewers from Indonesia. Whoever needs to come to see the World Cup in person or turn on the TV. I doubt that if they don't qualify for the World Cup, their country will be banned from showing the World Cup on TV. Maybe the number of viewers would actually increase a bit, but on a global scale it doesn't matter at all

It is not only relevant to Indonesia but there are many other countries in Asia where there is a craze for the football and a lot of people watch the football matches but their national team does not represent in the Fifa World Cup. I think fifa World cup is the only tournament that is watched globally regardless of the team participating in the tournament.

Unfortunately, the dilemma with the Asian region is that they love football and it is incredibly popular but the nations that can quality for the World Cup are minimal as compared to European and American nations.

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Quote from: Hanadawa on December 07, 2024, 09:58:44 AM

I think there are a few things we can discuss here. First, almost all Indians prefer cricket over football. Football is not that popular in their country. You can google it. Same goes for America. Most Americans prefer basketball and American football. But in Indonesia football is the number 1 popular sport in the country. Maybe almost on par with badminton. I think that could be the reason why if Indonesia qualifies for the world cup then there is a possibility that the number of world cup viewers from Indonesia will break the record.

I don't know, looking at the first league stats, the numbers are disappointing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024%E2%80%9325_Liga_1_(Indonesia)
Average attendance 4,022
For comparison, Romania which has 10 times less population has twice the average attendance for football matches.

People talking about football doesn't mean people watching the match, I can see that every day in this forum where if you judge by people's posts they are watching 3 matches live continuously from dusk till dawn.

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Quote from: Fiatless on December 06, 2024, 03:50:37 PM

Quote from: Agbe on December 06, 2024, 02:20:52 PM

Quote from: imamusma on November 23, 2024, 02:31:13 PM

~snip~

You made me laugh. Though I am not saying that Indonesia is not good to qualify or play the World Cup but your assertion that it is Indonesia team will make the World Cup more interesting is not true. I have watched many World Cups and I have not noticed that team in any of the World Cups I have watched and they are interested. What makes football more interesting is the team and not the number of fans chanting in the stadium. And nobody can force a team to participate but the strongness of the team to win others can make the team to qualify to participate in the main tournament.

Every fans want their country National Team to participate in the World Cup so they can support them but if they know they can't scale through the group stage in the World Cup, it is better they should not qualify in the Qualifiers Stage.

Indonesia have only participated in the world cup once in 1938 and they competed with the name Dutch East Indies. Since then they have never gone to the world cup. Just as you said, other nations don't care if Indonesia qualifies or not. Only Indonesians will experience an exciting competition if the Garuda Warriors make it to this prestigious competition.

Indonesia is in group C of the World Cup qualifiers and it is very tight because almost every country in that group has the chance to qualify. With the recent victory of Indonesia over highly rated Saudi Arabia, they might qualify for the next level.

Only qualifying to the world cup is a great achievement for some countries. So I don't agree that it is better not to qualify than to be knocked out in the group stage.

If we look at the history of 1938, we can say that actually at that time it was the Netherlands (Netherland East Indies) that qualified for the World Cup and not Indonesia, because after all at that time Indonesia was a Dutch colony although the squad was inhabited by the majority of players from Indonesia, I think what happened in the past is actually the opposite of what happened today when the Indonesian squad was dominated by players of descent from netherland, but apart from that, qualifying for the World Cup is an extraordinary achievement for any national team, including Indonesia, so we are here of course talking about pride and recognition from the world later about the ability of Indonesian football.

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Quote from: moneystery on December 07, 2024, 11:10:48 AM

Quote from: Hanadawa on December 07, 2024, 09:58:44 AM

I think there are a few things we can discuss here. First, almost all Indians prefer cricket over football. Football is not that popular in their country. You can google it. Same goes for America. Most Americans prefer basketball and American football. But in Indonesia football is the number 1 popular sport in the country. Maybe almost on par with badminton. I think that could be the reason why if Indonesia qualifies for the world cup then there is a possibility that the number of world cup viewers from Indonesia will break the record.

As a comparison, excluding famous players like Son, you can see which football players from Asia have the most followers on social media. I think Indonesian players will currently be in the top 20 of Asian players with the most followers on social media. I don't guarantee that the number of world cup viewers will increase drastically. But I can guarantee that Indonesia has a very big enthusiasm for football.

the enthusiasm of the Indonesian people for football is unquestionable, i dare say that indonesia is one of the countries whose people love football so much, even when this country last appeared in the world cup in 1938, but its people remain optimistic that one day indonesia can appear in the world cup again.

football is like a sport that is inherent in society, and when supporting the Indonesian national team, the Indonesian people are usually very serious and they will continue to support it, putting aside political choices or other things, it is a proof of how the Indonesian people really love football. so if one day Indonesia qualifies for the world cup, then I'm sure there are 150 million people or more than that who will watch and support this national team.

Please read all matter before writing reply they are not talking about Indonesia they are talking about India where cricket is the most popular game, and they are lacking about soccer which is also good but not as cricket.

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Quote from: Hanadawa on December 07, 2024, 09:58:44 AM

I think there are a few things we can discuss here. First, almost all Indians prefer cricket over football. Football is not that popular in their country. You can google it. Same goes for America. Most Americans prefer basketball and American football. But in Indonesia football is the number 1 popular sport in the country. Maybe almost on par with badminton. I think that could be the reason why if Indonesia qualifies for the world cup then there is a possibility that the number of world cup viewers from Indonesia will break the record.

As a comparison, excluding famous players like Son, you can see which football players from Asia have the most followers on social media. I think Indonesian players will currently be in the top 20 of Asian players with the most followers on social media. I don't guarantee that the number of world cup viewers will increase drastically. But I can guarantee that Indonesia has a very big enthusiasm for football.

the enthusiasm of the Indonesian people for football is unquestionable, i dare say that indonesia is one of the countries whose people love football so much, even when this country last appeared in the world cup in 1938, but its people remain optimistic that one day indonesia can appear in the world cup again.

football is like a sport that is inherent in society, and when supporting the Indonesian national team, the Indonesian people are usually very serious and they will continue to support it, putting aside political choices or other things, it is a proof of how the Indonesian people really love football. so if one day Indonesia qualifies for the world cup, then I'm sure there are 150 million people or more than that who will watch and support this national team.

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Quote from: stompix on December 06, 2024, 01:44:53 PM

And you think that If India qualifies 1.3 billion would watch the World Cup?
The maximum viewership in the US was barely 4 million at a 300 million population and the USA managed to get past the knock-out stage, how many in Indonesia will watch this out of those milions?

I think there are a few things we can discuss here. First, almost all Indians prefer cricket over football. Football is not that popular in their country. You can google it. Same goes for America. Most Americans prefer basketball and American football. But in Indonesia football is the number 1 popular sport in the country. Maybe almost on par with badminton. I think that could be the reason why if Indonesia qualifies for the world cup then there is a possibility that the number of world cup viewers from Indonesia will break the record.

As a comparison, excluding famous players like Son, you can see which football players from Asia have the most followers on social media. I think Indonesian players will currently be in the top 20 of Asian players with the most followers on social media. I don't guarantee that the number of world cup viewers will increase drastically. But I can guarantee that Indonesia has a very big enthusiasm for football.

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Quote from: Adiljutt156 on December 06, 2024, 09:20:23 AM

The teams who qualified for the World Cup are hard working teams and the players of that teams are very confident players. These team have to give good effort to win against big teams because in World Cup they will face top teams of the World which are performing well. We saw last match of Japan team which it played against China football team and that was one sided match and we saw Japan team was top class team of World Cup qualifing round.

Every team works hard to qualify for the World Cup and the players of that team are confident that their team will qualify for the World Cup. Among those teams, there are a few teams who consistently perform well and qualify for the World Cup. Japan is currently performing best in the FIFA World Cup Asian Qualifier matches. I also watched the match where Japan beat China, basically it was a one sided match. According to the current FIFA ranking, Japan is very strong at number 15, on the other hand, according to FIFA ranking, China is at number ninety.
If you look at the FIFA rankings, you will understand that China is a very weak team.

https://inside.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/men

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Quote from: Fiatless on December 06, 2024, 03:50:37 PM

Quote from: Agbe on December 06, 2024, 02:20:52 PM

Quote from: imamusma on November 23, 2024, 02:31:13 PM

The World Cup will certainly be more lively if Indonesia participates, because Indonesia has supporters of around 277 million people.

You made me laugh. Though I am not saying that Indonesia is not good to qualify or play the World Cup but your assertion that it is Indonesia team will make the World Cup more interesting is not true. I have watched many World Cups and I have not noticed that team in any of the World Cups I have watched and they are interested. What makes football more interesting is the team and not the number of fans chanting in the stadium. And nobody can force a team to participate but the strongness of the team to win others can make the team to qualify to participate in the main tournament.

Every fans want their country National Team to participate in the World Cup so they can support them but if they know they can't scale through the group stage in the World Cup, it is better they should not qualify in the Qualifiers Stage.

Indonesia have only participated in the world cup once in 1938 and they competed with the name Dutch East Indies. Since then they have never gone to the world cup. Just as you said, other nations don't care if Indonesia qualifies or not. Only Indonesians will experience an exciting competition if the Garuda Warriors make it to this prestigious competition.

Indonesia is in group C of the World Cup qualifiers and it is very tight because almost every country in that group has the chance to qualify. With the recent victory of Indonesia over highly rated Saudi Arabia, they might qualify for the next level.

Only qualifying to the world cup is a great achievement for some countries. So I don't agree that it is better not to qualify than to be knocked out in the group stage.

Whether they can qualify for the World Cup or not will not change the number of viewers from Indonesia. Whoever needs to come to see the World Cup in person or turn on the TV. I doubt that if they don't qualify for the World Cup, their country will be banned from showing the World Cup on TV. Maybe the number of viewers would actually increase a bit, but on a global scale it doesn't matter at all

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Quote from: Agbe on December 06, 2024, 02:20:52 PM

Quote from: imamusma on November 23, 2024, 02:31:13 PM

The World Cup will certainly be more lively if Indonesia participates, because Indonesia has supporters of around 277 million people.

You made me laugh. Though I am not saying that Indonesia is not good to qualify or play the World Cup but your assertion that it is Indonesia team will make the World Cup more interesting is not true. I have watched many World Cups and I have not noticed that team in any of the World Cups I have watched and they are interested. What makes football more interesting is the team and not the number of fans chanting in the stadium. And nobody can force a team to participate but the strongness of the team to win others can make the team to qualify to participate in the main tournament.

Every fans want their country National Team to participate in the World Cup so they can support them but if they know they can't scale through the group stage in the World Cup, it is better they should not qualify in the Qualifiers Stage.

Indonesia have only participated in the world cup once in 1938 and they competed with the name Dutch East Indies. Since then they have never gone to the world cup. Just as you said, other nations don't care if Indonesia qualifies or not. Only Indonesians will experience an exciting competition if the Garuda Warriors make it to this prestigious competition.

Indonesia is in group C of the World Cup qualifiers and it is very tight because almost every country in that group has the chance to qualify. With the recent victory of Indonesia over highly rated Saudi Arabia, they might qualify for the next level.

Only qualifying to the world cup is a great achievement for some countries. So I don't agree that it is better not to qualify than to be knocked out in the group stage.

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Quote from: hosseinimr93 on December 06, 2024, 01:28:16 PM

Quote from: bering on December 06, 2024, 01:03:46 PM

i still not fully understand about new format of qualification stages for Europa zone but if i am not mistaken there will be 12 Groups total from 55 countries who will fight at this stages

There will be 12 groups. 6 groups of four and 6 groups of five teams.
The winner of each group will qualify the world cup directly and the second placed teams will go to the play-off round.

The play off round will contain 16 teams and 4 paths. 12 teams will come from the group stage and the other 4 will come from the nations league.
Winner of each path will qualify for the world cup.

Yes, in the Playoff round each team will compete for the remaining 4 tickets. The 2026 World Cup qualifying round for the UEFA zone is scheduled to take place from March 2025 to March 2026. Currently, the initial draw for each Pot has been determined, which is based on the FIFA ranking assessment.
Sorce - https://www.fifa.com/en/tournaments/mens/worldcup/canadamexicousa2026/articles/procedures-and-seedings-uefa-draw
- https://www.fifa.com/en/tournaments/mens/worldcup/canadamexicousa2026/articles/uefa-qualifying-teams-schedule-dates-places

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Quote from: imamusma on November 23, 2024, 02:31:13 PM

The World Cup will certainly be more lively if Indonesia participates, because Indonesia has supporters of around 277 million people.

You made me laugh. Though I am not saying that Indonesia is not good to qualify or play the World Cup but your assertion that it is Indonesia team will make the World Cup more interesting is not true. I have watched many World Cups and I have not noticed that team in any of the World Cups I have watched and they are interested. What makes football more interesting is the team and not the number of fans chanting in the stadium. And nobody can force a team to participate but the strongness of the team to win others can make the team to qualify to participate in the main tournament.

Every fans want their country National Team to participate in the World Cup so they can support them but if they know they can't scale through the group stage in the World Cup, it is better they should not qualify in the Qualifiers Stage.

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Quote from: imamusma on November 23, 2024, 02:31:13 PM

The World Cup will certainly be more lively if Indonesia participates, because Indonesia has supporters of around 277 million people.

And you think that If India qualifies 1.3 billion would watch the World Cup?
The maximum viewership in the US was barely 4 million at a 300 million population and the USA managed to get past the knock-out stage, how many in Indonesia will watch this out of those milions?

Quote from: Hirose UK on December 03, 2024, 11:54:47 PM

And for most of the players who entered the Japanese national team, they are players who have careers in the top European leagues. and this is what makes Japan the strongest team in Asia.

That's the thing, almost the whole Japanese team plays in European clubs, and they are used to playing against tough adversaries match after match against adversaries with different styles of play, for Indonesia, the team plays most in their national championship, there is a complete lack of experience and this will prove a real factor in the matches if they make it to the World Cup, and it's not going to be a pretty sight when looking at the scoreboard.

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Quote from: bering on December 06, 2024, 01:03:46 PM

i still not fully understand about new format of qualification stages for Europa zone but if i am not mistaken there will be 12 Groups total from 55 countries who will fight at this stages

There will be 12 groups. 6 groups of four and 6 groups of five teams.
The winner of each group will qualify for the world cup directly and the second placed teams will go to the play-off round.

The play off round will contain 16 teams and 4 paths. 12 teams will come from the group stage and the other 4 will come from the nations league.
Winner of each path will qualify for the world cup.

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Quote from: bastisisca on December 04, 2024, 11:49:06 AM

we with our Italian national team are in quite a bad situation, i dont see how we can get through the groups, we are totally inconsistent as a team and we have no ideas, no courage and above all no character.
I see it very badly, a fearful decline that brings a lot of sadness, at least to me

Qualification matches for Europa zone hasn't starting yet so we still don't know whether Italy will be performing well or not however i still not fully understand about new format of qualification stages for Europa zone but if i am not mistaken there will be 12 Groups total from 55 countries who will fight at this stages and Italy was joining with England, France or Spain as the favourite teams and probably they will be into Pot 1 for drawing stages and only Group Champion who will be automatically to advances to World Cup i think Spaletti has hard work because he have to make Italy performing well and qualified to the World cup 2026 but i am optimistic Spaletti can make it happend

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Quote from: iBaba on December 05, 2024, 02:30:27 PM

Quote from: bastisisca on December 04, 2024, 11:49:06 AM

we with our Italian national team are in quite a bad situation, i dont see how we can get through the groups, we are totally inconsistent as a team and we have no ideas, no courage and above all no character.
I see it very badly, a fearful decline that brings a lot of sadness, at least to me

The nightmare with the Italian national team especially in the past two world cup qualifiers is quite surprsing and amazing at the same time. How can a team as popular as the Italian national team fail to qualify consecutively in the last two world cup editions? It must be very depressing situation for the team. I don't think Italy lacks talented players per say, but these players seem to be disconnected and the talent in them hasn't been necessarily nurtured and coordinated properly.

I know the main problem the Italian national team is faced with now is how to properly manage the young talented players while reducing a number of the old players. The team needs a tactician who knows how to effectively handle the squad depth to be more consistent, stable and qualified to go far in this tournament.

Unfortunately, the fact is also due to the fact that teams no longer develop players, they prefer to just buy them.
This obviously reduces the number of good and experienced players who can join the national team to play.
You understand that this trend will in the long run lead to the destruction of the Italian national team as we know it.
We will always be relegated to the end.

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Quote from: LUCKMCFLY on December 05, 2024, 02:16:26 PM

Quote from: Palakka on November 24, 2024, 12:59:20 PM

The Indonesian national team not a team have experience in international competitions, especially the world cup so far, but the enthusiasm of the Indonesian people in watching football (world cup) is clearly very large, even from the latest survey recorded that so far Indonesia in the 15th position as the most enthusiastic country to watch football, so I think if Indonesia can qualify for the world cup later of course it will be a new history for them, but indeed to qualify of course not an easy thing although it is also not impossible for them, because the victory over Arabia has opened up these opportunities, Indonesia needs to maximize every remaining match that exists, so that at least they can still qualify through the qualifying round while still staying in the 3rd or 4th position later.

Yes, there is no doubt about that, however I would like to see this team in the World Cup, besides it would be very good because I consider that all of them deserve to go, only a few that can reach the qualification, now that I have seen that the format of the World Cup has changed, I see that everything is more competitive, instead of being seen as easier to get there, the teams are having a hard time, in the South American qualification even Brazil has had a hard time, and if it costs a monster like this, what is left for the others? Indonesia cannot give up, they have to give their all.

Just like you, I also want to see Indonesia compete in the World Cup next year and I think for now the opportunity is wide open after Indonesia managed to defeat Saudi Arabia, to be honest after the defeat from China, I started to be pessimistic about Indonesian chances, but the revival they showed in the last match is of course very extraordinary, at this time they just need to stay focused on the remaining matches and target to still be able to win points no matter who the opponent is, the change in the format of the World Cup, allows teams like Indonesia to show their abilities, so indeed their not can to waste the opportunities that exist today.

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Quote from: LUCKMCFLY on December 05, 2024, 02:16:26 PM

Quote from: Palakka on November 24, 2024, 12:59:20 PM

The Indonesian national team not a team have experience in international competitions, especially the world cup so far, but the enthusiasm of the Indonesian people in watching football (world cup) is clearly very large, even from the latest survey recorded that so far Indonesia in the 15th position as the most enthusiastic country to watch football, so I think if Indonesia can qualify for the world cup later of course it will be a new history for them, but indeed to qualify of course not an easy thing although it is also not impossible for them, because the victory over Arabia has opened up these opportunities, Indonesia needs to maximize every remaining match that exists, so that at least they can still qualify through the qualifying round while still staying in the 3rd or 4th position later.

Yes, there is no doubt about that, however I would like to see this team in the World Cup, besides it would be very good because I consider that all of them deserve to go, only a few that can reach the qualification, now that I have seen that the format of the World Cup has changed, I see that everything is more competitive, instead of being seen as easier to get there, the teams are having a hard time, in the South American qualification even Brazil has had a hard time, and if it costs a monster like this, what is left for the others? Indonesia cannot give up, they have to give their all.

The host nations and FIFA strive to make each World Cup tournament more attractive, resulting in tougher competition each season. The 2026 World Cup is going to be even more competitive than the 2022 World Cup was. We can see a lot of new things in the 2026 World Cup. In 2022 a lot of technology was used to make the tournament beautiful and accurate and in 2022 world cup but players and fans were happy with all the decisions but there were some wrong decisions due to penalty in last world cup tournament hopefully nothing like that will happen in 2026 world cup tournament. Argentina won the last World Cup from Latin America, so the European teams will definitely try to do well in the upcoming World Cup.

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Quote from: Lidger on December 04, 2024, 12:38:32 PM

Quote from: bering on December 04, 2024, 02:16:40 AM

Quote from: Hanadawa on December 02, 2024, 12:11:09 AM

Quote from: Juse14 on December 01, 2024, 11:11:02 PM

And if you think that no Asian team is able to provide a surprise in the World Cup, maybe you forgot that Japan is a team that was able to beat Germany and Spain in the group phase, making it difficult for both teams to reach the last 16 in the 2022 World Cup.

I can say Japan is the best team in Asia and they always give surprises in the world cup. There is no other team on their level in Asia. Another Asian team that gave a surprise was Saudi Arabia when they beat Argentina in the first match of the 2022 world cup. But Japan is still the best because they always have a chance to beat top teams like Germany and Spain. South Korea is also the best team in Asia. But I did not include their record of making it to the semifinals of the 2002 world cup because many said they robbed Italy of victory in the round of 16-CMIIW

Japan was never absense playing at world cup since 1998 and total they have been playing at this tournament 7 times and the latest is on world cup 2022 and Japan also can able reach to round of 16 or knock out stages 4 times so i think this is good achievement and compared to other Asian teams who participate on world cup i think they are the best Asian team so far with South Korea and for qualification stages Japan most likely will be advances to the world cup 2026 because they are unstoppable in Group C even their strong contender Australia cannot keep up them because Australia only can collect 7 points from 6 matches so Japan will be qualified as Group champion

Among the Asian countries, South Korea, Japan, Saudi Arabia, these three teams qualified to play the World Cup. In the last World Cup, Qatar was the host nation, which did not require them to qualify for the World Cup, but they qualified to play in the World Cup as the host nation. There is still a lot of speculation about the final teams for the 2026 World Cup. It is also possible that the teams that we have seen qualify for the main stage in the 2022 World Cup may not qualify for the main stage of the 2026 World Cup. But there is a good chance for Japan to qualify for 2026 World Cup and if Japan can qualify for the main stage of 2026 World Cup then I believe they will do well there.

The teams who qualified for the World Cup are hard working teams and the players of that teams are very confident players. These team have to give good effort to win against big teams because in World Cup they will face top teams of the World which are performing well. We saw last match of Japan team which it played against China football team and that was one sided match and we saw Japan team was top class team of World Cup qualifing round. South Korea team qualified for the World Cup and that team should continue their hard work.The players of South Korea and Japan football team are at peak and fans are impressed by the players of that team and they should try to give good performance in next matches because they will play in World Cup and they got this opportunity.

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Quote from: Lidger on December 04, 2024, 12:38:32 PM

Among the Asian countries, South Korea, Japan, Saudi Arabia, these three teams qualified to play the World Cup. In the last World Cup, Qatar was the host nation, which did not require them to qualify for the World Cup, but they qualified to play in the World Cup as the host nation. There is still a lot of speculation about the final teams for the 2026 World Cup. It is also possible that the teams that we have seen qualify for the main stage in the 2022 World Cup may not qualify for the main stage of the 2026 World Cup.

Maybe apart from these teams, some other teams have a good chance to qualify for the 2026 FIFA World Cup. Iran, South Korea and Japan are currently performing best in the FIFA World Cup Asian Qualifiers matches. These teams are all at the top of the points table. Although Saudi Arabia and Australia performed poorly in the qualifier matches, they have been playing in the FIFA World Cup for a long time, maybe they will qualify for the 2026 World Cup as well.

Quote

But there is a good chance for Japan to qualify for 2026 World Cup and if Japan can qualify for the main stage of 2026 World Cup then I believe they will do well there.

The performance of all Japanese players in the Asian Qualifier matches was outstanding, although most of the players in their team were young but they gave their best performance for the team. Japan have won five out of six matches in the Asian qualifiers, so they may have a good chance of qualifying for the FIFA World Cup.

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Quote from: Litzki1990 on December 03, 2024, 02:08:41 AM

In this regard, the FIFA president plays an important role. America tried hard to host the 2022 World Cup in their country but Qatar gave such a huge amount of money to FIFA that FIFA turned down America's offer and allowed Qatar to host the World Cup. Before the end of the World Cup in Qatar, it was announced which countries would host the next two World Cups, with the 2026 World Cup being hosted by Mexico, America and Canada, while the 2030 World Cup is slated to be hosted by Saudi Arabia.
In other words, the 2030 World Cup will again be hosted in a Middle Eastern country. Saudi Arabia is gearing up well in advance to give football lovers a great World Cup.

In last few years while we have too much engagement of Social Media many things are wide opening, and we have too many scams and controversies about these sports organizations with FIFA are regarded as one of the most corrupt organization due to their huge market and presence around the world hosting of 2022 by Qatar was surely due to all bribery and gifts which were given by Qatari authorities to few countries for their vote.

But now as we have increase in teams with most chances we will be having 3 countries as host for the event is good development this will bring more money and involvement of countries and many countries those were want to host this event, but they were not able to do this now can go ahead with co-host partners.

Topic: FIFA World Cup 2026 :Canada/Mexico/United States: Discussion Thread - page 15. (Read 67630 times)