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Topic: First BFL ASIC! - page 28. (Read 58307 times)

legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003
April 01, 2013, 11:07:02 AM
This customer cannot be a BFL employee.

Exactly, Luke-Jr is not an employee. You'll see that I referenced this requirement in my second to last post.
Wait, he gets flown out to do programming for BFL and he is not an employee?

What is his order number by the way? I am assuming Luke ordered his units at the very start of the line....right?

Whats that? It is part of his compensation scheme? Wait...since when do customers get compensated when they [probably] haven't paid cash or BTC for an order? (Called a transaction of goods)

Sounds to me like he is an employee or contracted labor.

--------------------------

Don't think so?

Can he arrive at BFL labs, say he doesn't want to program anything and take his order home with him [like a customer can]? No...?

Then he is an employee performing a job for compensation. Simple theory right?
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1186
April 01, 2013, 11:03:52 AM
For this bet to be won tho, there needs to be a shipping label and/or tracking number.
There is, but I'd prefer not to give the trolls my personal info.
Then where are the posted photos taken by yourself at your delivery location? Re-posting photos of devices at the factory doesn't count.
Why not? I'll update my forum avatar at some point, but don't feel like cleaning up my desk right now.

Another thing that bugs me is that Luke was put into service by BFL a while back so he could work on their product. During this time he stayed in a hotel. If the money for the hotel was payed out of BFLs pocket i see this as a compensation for his involvement with the product and that would make him a BFL employee by my definition.
Your definition is irrelevant. An employee means "one employed by another usually for wages or salary and in a position below the executive level" in English. The legal definition is more specific, and makes it completely clear that I am not an employee.
Yeah, and i use this definition:

'An "employee" is defined as "a preference eligible in the excepted service who has completed 1 year of current continuous service in the same or similar positions" or "an individual in the excepted service (other than a preference eligible) . . . who is not serving a probationary or trial period under an initial appointment pending conversion to the competitive service." Ramos v. Merit Sys. Prot. Bd., 2009 U.S. App. LEXIS 24378 (Fed. Cir. Nov. 6, 2009)  '

(http://definitions.uslegal.com/e/employee/)

So if your expenses were payed in exchange for specific work done at the request of BFL and you were not a temp at BFL you could be seen as an employee. But actually more likely as a contractor.

In any case, by your definition i'd say you were an employee as well because you were employed to do some work for BFL in exchange for a financial compensation  and your position was lower than executive level.
"Excepted service" in all definitions I can find refers to a class of people working for the federal government.

"An employer has the right to control an employee. It is important to determine whether the company had the right to direct and control the workers not only as to the results desired, but also as to the details, manner and means by which the results were accomplished. If the company had the right to supervise and control such details of the work peformed, and the manner and means by which the results were to be accomplished, an employer-employee relationship would be indicated. On the other hand, the absence of supervision and control by the company would support a finding that the workers were independent contractors and not employees. Whether or not such control was exercised is not the determining factor, it is the right to control which is key."

This makes it clear I am not an employee.
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003
April 01, 2013, 11:03:10 AM
25GH for a mini single which draws 179W, almost the same power consumption as avalon, but I heard there is a wafer by wafer difference in chip's power consumption, could be lower than that number, but 120W at least. So 240W for a full single running at 60GH, with that amount of heat, open rig is the only choice  Cheesy

So indeed that is a shipped product, everyone have to run it like that, and there is a turbo blow fan on the left side of the heatsink, not in the photo  Grin
Does this meant the Mini-rig will require a wind tunnel to operate properly?
aTg
legendary
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000
April 01, 2013, 10:59:41 AM
Let's make a couple of technical questions:
1. There are ways to improve performance of the asic from the mining program? in this case to be a non-programmable hardware to do apart from BFGMiner fecuencia vary?
2. How many cores contains single PCB ?
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
April 01, 2013, 10:56:19 AM
There is no way an employer/employee relationship has been established. This has been pretty thoroughly covered.

Where?
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
April 01, 2013, 10:55:20 AM
For this bet to be won tho, there needs to be a shipping label and/or tracking number.
There is, but I'd prefer not to give the trolls my personal info.

Also "The device must achieve at least 75% of its advertised hashrate."  Which product was your order for Luke?  A Single or a Little Single?
This is my Little Single.

I guess luke has a bet and is being desperate?
I am not a party to any bets. (although I probably would be if I knew whether it was legal in Kansas)

Another thing that bugs me is that Luke was put into service by BFL a while back so he could work on their product. During this time he stayed in a hotel. If the money for the hotel was payed out of BFLs pocket i see this as a compensation for his involvement with the product and that would make him a BFL employee by my definition.
Your definition is irrelevant. An employee means "one employed by another usually for wages or salary and in a position below the executive level" in English. The legal definition is more specific, and makes it completely clear that I am not an employee.
Yeah, and i use this definition:

'An "employee" is defined as "a preference eligible in the excepted service who has completed 1 year of current continuous service in the same or similar positions" or "an individual in the excepted service (other than a preference eligible) . . . who is not serving a probationary or trial period under an initial appointment pending conversion to the competitive service." Ramos v. Merit Sys. Prot. Bd., 2009 U.S. App. LEXIS 24378 (Fed. Cir. Nov. 6, 2009)  '

(http://definitions.uslegal.com/e/employee/)

So if your expenses were payed in exchange for specific work done at the request of BFL and you were not a temp at BFL you could be seen as an employee. But actually more likely as a contractor.

In any case, by your definition i'd say you were an employee as well because you were employed to do some work for BFL in exchange for a financial compensation  and your position was lower than executive level.
legendary
Activity: 3878
Merit: 1193
April 01, 2013, 10:50:41 AM
For this bet to be won tho, there needs to be a shipping label and/or tracking number.
There is, but I'd prefer not to give the trolls my personal info.

Then where are the posted photos taken by yourself at your delivery location? Re-posting photos of devices at the factory doesn't count.

I just love all the debate about an April Fools post. Truly the mark of a good fooling.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
firstbits.com/1kznfw
April 01, 2013, 10:40:28 AM
Final Verdicted: BFL failed.
Major:
  • Didn't meet deadline (just)
  • Potentially an employee is the source of said "evidence"
Minor:
  • Non credible photos (taken by some other than poster - BFL [JOSH] )
  • Advertised hashrate is in question.

My personal feeling is that the deadline wasn't met, but I acknowledge others that say it is ambiguous.

There is no way an employer/employee relationship has been established. This has been pretty thoroughly covered.

The hashrate is not in question. The other unit in the pictures isn't plugged in.

The "credibility" of the photos is a little subjective here. I personally feel the intent of the phrasing is to discount any photoshopped images. It does not refer to who took the photos as long as people believe that the photos are real. The secondary evidence of Luke-Jr's mining rate graph gives credibility to the photos. I also feel that credibility can be established post hoc.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1186
April 01, 2013, 10:32:29 AM
For this bet to be won tho, there needs to be a shipping label and/or tracking number.
There is, but I'd prefer not to give the trolls my personal info.

Also "The device must achieve at least 75% of its advertised hashrate."  Which product was your order for Luke?  A Single or a Little Single?
This is my Little Single.

I guess luke has a bet and is being desperate?
I am not a party to any bets. (although I probably would be if I knew whether it was legal in Kansas)

Another thing that bugs me is that Luke was put into service by BFL a while back so he could work on their product. During this time he stayed in a hotel. If the money for the hotel was payed out of BFLs pocket i see this as a compensation for his involvement with the product and that would make him a BFL employee by my definition.
Your definition is irrelevant. An employee means "one employed by another usually for wages or salary and in a position below the executive level" in English. The legal definition is more specific, and makes it completely clear that I am not an employee.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 502
April 01, 2013, 10:30:02 AM
April 1st -> thread about BFL delivering..


2 + 2 = It's a fucking joke!
full member
Activity: 125
Merit: 100
April 01, 2013, 10:27:10 AM
LOL


Nice april fools joke luke! Smiley

Those are BFL singles with the cases off.

You think Luke couldn't change cgminer or bfgminer to display the incorrect speed?

c'mon I can't believe how many people fell for this one. hahahaha


seriously that was a really good one.


-JJ
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Keep it Simple. Every Bit Matters.
April 01, 2013, 10:25:35 AM
I just read up on this particular bet, but the short answer is I don't think it qualifies as "won" by BFL.

Quote
• Before April 1st 2013, at least one BFL customer with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum, including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate. This customer cannot be a BFL employee.

• The device must achieve at least 75% of its advertised hashrate.

Statted Specs: ~30W & ~30Gh/s (still on website)
Specs expected to see: ~180W & ~25Gh/s (according to photos)

    • Post before April 1st 2013 - Questionable, since no time zone was stated in the terms, but Eastern Time was set for Event date.
    • Luke apparently is a customer, with an established forum account, thus establishing a baseline for credibility.
    • Detailed and Credible photos - This is not true. Photos are not taken by Luke, thus can't be proven to be credible.
    • Photos do show a phototype looking device hashing - So some evidence is shown something exists that hashes.
    • Luke Jr was apparently commissioned to help with mining software (supplied with unit) - Is at the least, not a normal customer, could be classed as an employee.
    • Device hashes at 75% of advertised hashrate - Apparently yes.
    • However since the Power usage is 5x higher and their being two on display, it might not be true that one device, once assembled would do within 75% of it's stated speed.

Final Verdicted: BFL failed.
Major:
  • Didn't meet deadline (just)
  • Potentially an employee is the source of said "evidence"
Minor:
  • Non credible photos (taken by some other than poster - BFL [JOSH] )
  • Advertised hashrate is in question.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
April 01, 2013, 10:17:01 AM
I think the major hinge is that BFL needs (someone like) Luke to finish the product. In that respect you can only see Lukes visit as a form of employment, even if they payed him in smiles.

What? No they don't. They promised ASIC mining devices, not mining software.

Again, I went to Sun Microsystems in 1996 to do a tech demo of a Java product my company was working on. At their facility, they gave us early access to the now failed Java workstations to test our product on. You could say that Sun needed some like me to work on Java applications for their Java platform to be viable, but at no time was I ever employed by Sun and indicating as such on my resume would be considered fraud.



Yeah, maybe you'll now understand why multinationals like Sun have whole departments of lawyers that deal specifically with the legal situation of exchanging information with external parties. You probably had to sign some form of NDA to be able to attend that presentation. And you probably don't even know what was written there.
The fact that you had this encounter with Sun is pretty meaningless in this case because Sun has legal facilities to make these exchanges possible in the first place.

I'm pretty sure no such care was taken by BFL.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
April 01, 2013, 10:10:39 AM
I think the major hinge is that BFL needs (someone like) Luke to finish the product. In that respect you can only see Lukes visit as a form of employment, even if they payed him in smiles.

What? No they don't. They promised ASIC mining devices, not mining software.

Again, I went to Sun Microsystems in 1996 to do a tech demo of a Java product my company was working on. At their facility, they gave us early access to the now failed Java workstations to test our product on. You could say that Sun needed some like me to work on Java applications for their Java platform to be viable, but at no time was I ever employed by Sun and indicating as such on my resume would be considered fraud.


The device, as advertized by BFL, includes software as well as hardware.
Part of this software was written by Luke, as far as i understand it.
member
Activity: 63
Merit: 10
April 01, 2013, 10:08:09 AM
i don't care, just buy 2 more  Grin hope they will scam
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
firstbits.com/1kznfw
April 01, 2013, 10:01:55 AM
I think the major hinge is that BFL needs (someone like) Luke to finish the product. In that respect you can only see Lukes visit as a form of employment, even if they payed him in smiles.

What? No they don't. They promised ASIC mining devices, not mining software.

Again, I went to Sun Microsystems in 1996 to do a tech demo of a Java product my company was working on. At their facility, they gave us early access to the now failed Java workstations to test our product on. You could say that Sun needed some like me to work on Java applications for their Java platform to be viable, but at no time was I ever employed by Sun and indicating as such on my resume would be considered fraud.

legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
April 01, 2013, 10:00:32 AM
There is a difference between being an 'Employee' and a 'Contractor'

True, but he's not even a contractor. I would bet a bitcoin that BFL is not going to send him a 1099, nor are they required to.

Surely he's receiving some form of compensation, be it dollars, BTC, or free hardware.

Even just having his order bumped to the head of the queue holds substantial value (at the expense of the rest of the customers).
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
April 01, 2013, 09:57:52 AM
Well Avalon delivered 1-3 prototype units, @more than their advertised power consumption, just so they could say they shipped before March 1st. Then used Batch#2 funds to produce their Batch#1 orders.

On those grounds the BFL 'Yes' vote wins  Grin Grin

Those were finished units installed in cases, which achieved their full advertised hashrate, and were actually delivered to customers.

Luke's units are sitting naked on a bench at BFL, hashing at less than 50% their advertised speed.

The pictures were also clearly posted after the deadline, so by the terms of the bet, the outcome would be "false".
legendary
Activity: 2450
Merit: 1002
April 01, 2013, 09:54:10 AM
my gosh, that thing is nowhere near its performance / watt. If the board were being overdriven(which obviously it is) that would explain the tinyass heatsinks everywhere. Im not an elec engineer but I would suspect those smaller heatsinks wouldnt be needed if it was closer to its target performance would they?
So far, its pretty close to the power efficiency of an avy. Imagine if it is a die by die variance, this also might not even be the worse =P, there could be better, but may be even worse.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
April 01, 2013, 09:43:57 AM
I don't agree as the word 'device' used in the bet means to me a device like the one BFL has on the pictures on their sales page. All i see in the pictures is the same prototype device.

Another thing that bugs me is that Luke was put into service by BFL a while back so he could work on their product. During this time he stayed in a hotel. If the money was payed out of BFLs pocket i see this as a compensation for his involvement with the product and that would make him a BFL employee by my definition.

I would not confuse paying hotelling expenses for a client or business partner (which Luke-Jr is both) with being an employee. Every company I've ever worked at has expensed out visiting clients, and I myself have been expensed by other companies for various reason, for example Sun Microsystems for a Java product technology demonstration in 1996. If there was any kind of employee relationship in any of those cases, I would have been in violation of federal law, but I wasn't because paying expenses for a visit constitutes no such relationship.

As far as device goes, the bet is poorly worded and in general poorly formed. It too loosely defines device, and since this is the final device that Luke-Jr is getting to fulfill this order with BFL, it appears to be fulfilled.

It was payed in exchange of an expectation of Luke doing work on their unfinished product.
This is an arrangement of payment for work, which is employment.
If BFL at any point said to Luke: "Come on over to work on the software and we'll pay for the hotel" then that is a verbal contract.

I think the major hinge is that BFL needs (someone like) Luke to finish the product. In that respect you can only see Lukes visit as a form of employment, even if they payed him in smiles.

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