First BFL ASIC! - page 24. | Bitcointalksearch.org

Phinnaeus Gage

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Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending

Quote from: Dalkore on April 01, 2013, 11:19:16 PM

Quote from: Luke-Jr on April 01, 2013, 10:18:01 PM

Quote from: coinjedi on April 01, 2013, 10:12:00 PM

Hello everyone,

As it is part of running a betting service, sometimes we have to make some decisions that will not please all of our users. This is certainly one of these cases. I agree that the bet description statements are barely satisfied but the bet is actually on "shipping" of a commercial product. To the best of our judgment the pictured device is still an internal development unit within the company premises, even if it is somehow "owned" by a non-employee. As far as I can see even BFL doesn't officially claim shipping. Under these circumstances we can not rule the statement as false. Our decision is currently not final and we will be listening your input for a few days before the final decision. Feel free to raise your opinion.

Please note that I have physically handled my unit, and BFL has it at their office now only at my own request that they keep it there for the time being.
As I understand it, BFL's "shipping" refers to their Batch 1 which has special shipping constraints. The plan to provide units to developers in advance, including the ones I paid for such as this Little Single, has been there all along, so it would be unreasonable IMO to exclude it from the bet.
I believe you should be able to verify that I have no stake in the bet (unless it's semi-anonymous or something); I have no objections if you wish to disclose that.

Luke-Jr - Why did you request BFL to keep the unit? Being that you are a developer wouldn't it been in everyone's best interest that you keep the unit? Doesn't this seem odd? It seems like there were some additional issues that you and BFL are working through. In that case, wouldn't it be fair to say that these units have not "shipped"? It has to be one or the other, wouldn't you say? If a developer who has much technical expertise can not take his unit then how could we say it is shipping? I am just trying to understand your position.

Thank you in advance. Thank you again for all your hard work.

+1

I, too, respect Luke and Kano for all they do.

Full Disclosure: I did not bet on this position, nor care its outcome, albeit I heavily lean toward the what's-right-is-right side of the fence.

Dalkore

legendary

Activity: 1330

Merit: 1026

Mining since 2010 & Hosting since 2012

Quote from: Luke-Jr on April 01, 2013, 10:18:01 PM

Quote from: coinjedi on April 01, 2013, 10:12:00 PM

Hello everyone,

As it is part of running a betting service, sometimes we have to make some decisions that will not please all of our users. This is certainly one of these cases. I agree that the bet description statements are barely satisfied but the bet is actually on "shipping" of a commercial product. To the best of our judgment the pictured device is still an internal development unit within the company premises, even if it is somehow "owned" by a non-employee. As far as I can see even BFL doesn't officially claim shipping. Under these circumstances we can not rule the statement as false. Our decision is currently not final and we will be listening your input for a few days before the final decision. Feel free to raise your opinion.

Please note that I have physically handled my unit, and BFL has it at their office now only at my own request that they keep it there for the time being.
As I understand it, BFL's "shipping" refers to their Batch 1 which has special shipping constraints. The plan to provide units to developers in advance, including the ones I paid for such as this Little Single, has been there all along, so it would be unreasonable IMO to exclude it from the bet.
I believe you should be able to verify that I have no stake in the bet (unless it's semi-anonymous or something); I have no objections if you wish to disclose that.

Luke-Jr - Why did you request BFL to keep the unit? Being that you are a developer wouldn't it been in everyone's best interest that you keep the unit? Doesn't this seem odd? It seems like there were some additional issues that you and BFL are working through. In that case, wouldn't it be fair to say that these units have not "shipped"? It has to be one or the other, wouldn't you say? If a developer who has much technical expertise can not take his unit then how could we say it is shipping? I am just trying to understand your position.

Thank you in advance. Thank you again for all your hard work.

Micon

legendary

Activity: 1232

Merit: 1014

FPV Drone Pilot

Quote from: coinjedi on April 01, 2013, 10:12:00 PM

Hello everyone,

As it is part of running a betting service, sometimes we have to make some decisions that will not please all of our users. This is certainly one of these cases. I agree that the bet description statements are barely satisfied but the bet is actually on "shipping" of a commercial product. To the best of our judgment the pictured device is still an internal development unit within the company premises, even if it is somehow "owned" by a non-employee. As far as I can see even BFL doesn't officially claim shipping. Under these circumstances we can not rule the statement as false. Our decision is currently not final and we will be listening your input for a few days before the final decision. Feel free to raise your opinion.

Ah ok I feel better.

I cannot see anything but an extremely weak argument being made otherwise. I msg'd this personally to coinjedi, but it's worth posting publicly.

IMO in the future follow the example in this betting thread: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/280-btc-total-bets-between-micon-and-mrb-are-bfl-asics-real-135914 where we required 3x verified non-BFL user pix / hash rate test + a power rating of 350Mh/J or more efficient. When betting on a company that has taken 1000's of pre-orders and given the extreme popularity of this forum, multiple independent verification would be easy.

With a company as sneaky and backhanded as BFL, IMO it's on BetsofBitcoin to reject vague wagers.

Further more, I still have no clue how much I stand to win when I make bets there

Xian01

legendary

Activity: 1652

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Christian Antkow

Quote from: Luke-Jr on April 01, 2013, 10:18:01 PM

BFL has it at their office now only at my own request that they keep it there for the time being.

This is all we need to know. BFL has shipped nothing yet. No Easter Shipping Miracle was performed.

They have a working prototype that Luke-Jr has access to and is helping with software development.

Josh claiming on BFL chat last night that they shipped just seemed really disingenuous and slimy. Par for the course as far as Josh goes I suppose.

Minor Miner

legendary

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Be A Digital Miner

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on April 01, 2013, 11:06:07 PM

Quote from: Inspector 2211 on April 01, 2013, 11:01:45 PM

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on April 01, 2013, 10:56:23 PM

Quote

Before April 1st 2013, at least one BFL customer with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum, including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate. This customer cannot be a BFL employee.

Show me the post where Luke reported its hashrate.

It's visible in the picture.

Is an image a report? I thought a report is something like, "The unit is hashing at..."

Or, he could clarify that it is ONLY one unit, not two and that it hashed at this rate for this amount of time. Why would he not want to do that? Can anyone think of any reason that he does not want to confirm this?

Phinnaeus Gage

legendary

Activity: 1918

Merit: 1570

Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending

Quote from: Inspector 2211 on April 01, 2013, 11:01:45 PM

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on April 01, 2013, 10:56:23 PM

Quote

Before April 1st 2013, at least one BFL customer with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum, including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate. This customer cannot be a BFL employee.

Show me the post where Luke reported its hashrate.

It's visible in the picture.

Is an image a report? I thought a report is something like, "The unit is hashing at..."

Micon

legendary

Activity: 1232

Merit: 1014

FPV Drone Pilot

Disclosure: As I'm sure most of you know, I have many bets against BFL shipping, including a portion of this one

just saw this tweet:

Bets of Bitcoin ‏@betsofbitcoin 35m
Do you think BFL "shipped" ASICS https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/first-bfl-asic-163261 … to satisfy this bet: http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=701 We would like your opinion.
Details

I cannot see any argument whatsoever for anything other than "true"

Quote

This bet concerns the 3 Butterfly Labs Bitforce SC products announced here:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.966886

For this statement to be false, both of the two following conditions must be met:

• Before April 1st 2013, at least one BFL customer with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum, including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate. This customer cannot be a BFL employee.

• The device must achieve at least 75% of its advertised hashrate.

-- obviously nothing has been shipped
-- there is a prototype still in BFL offices
-- these are unverified screenshots
-- and even by those screenshots they miss the 75% of advertised hashrate
-- LukeJr. would certainly be considered a BFL employee given the amount of work he has done in this prototype stage. He is certainly not a normal customer

I am quite disappointed that BetsofBitcoin seems to have almost fallen for more of JZ's spin...

Inspector 2211

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on April 01, 2013, 10:56:23 PM

Quote

Before April 1st 2013, at least one BFL customer with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum, including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate. This customer cannot be a BFL employee.

Show me the post where Luke reported its hashrate.

It's visible in the picture.

Phinnaeus Gage

legendary

Activity: 1918

Merit: 1570

Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending

Quote

Before April 1st 2013, at least one BFL customer with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum, including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate. This customer cannot be a BFL employee.

Show me the post where Luke reported its hashrate.

JordanL

donator

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Quote from: PuertoLibre on April 01, 2013, 01:45:05 PM

Quote from: willphase on April 01, 2013, 11:14:05 AM

Quote from: JordanL on April 01, 2013, 09:12:23 AM

For this statement to be false, both of the two following conditions must be met:

• Before April 1st 2013, at least one BFL customer with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum, including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate. This customer cannot be a BFL employee.

• The device must achieve at least 75% of its advertised hashrate.

It does sound like they met these requirements. Wow, what a slimy way to win a bet. Good thing I made my wagers on bitbet. Always read the fine print!!

For what it's worth, I agree that the bet is won, the screenshot was posted, and the date on the screenshot is 2013-03-31 so it was March, it was in Luke's possession, it was mining and it's a little single within 75% parameters of 30Gh (it was hashing at average of 23.52 which is 78%. Luke-Jr received the rig by picking it up in person at the BFL premises (which BFL have stated is fine if arranged in advance) then leaving it there to be hosted. Nowhere in the bet were any other rules stated.

I don't think this is a debate that will ever be concluded though because people will have diametrically opposed views based on their ideology, regardless of how betsofbitcoin resolve it, there will be a load of angry/unhappy people.

Will

Sorry, but it is not a finished product and isn't the retail (as in production ready) model.

It is a board screwed to a metal plate with incomplete software and is (bluntly put) a prototype. They do not win the bet. Not by a mile.

Where does it say anything about a finished or retail product? The bet says "the device".

Quote from: peasant on April 01, 2013, 01:04:28 PM

Clearly whoever created the bet didn't word it very well. They left a lot of room for them to slither out. It's good theater though. Lets see how much time this new information buys BFL. Cheesy

Exactly. I would never agree to any kind of agreement/contract this ambiguous.

miter_myles

hero member

Activity: 742

Merit: 500

Quote from: cablepair on April 01, 2013, 10:05:11 PM

http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=1444

BFL will Not ship any ASICS to customers by May 1st
Butterfly Labs will not ship any ASIC based mining devices to customers by May 1st 2013

according to this they are saying they will be shipping withing a couple of weeks.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1697916

Info
Opening date: March 31, 2013
Bet deadline: April 29, 2013 end of day Eastern Time
Event date: May 1, 2013 end of day Eastern Time
Category: Technology
Total agree bets: 9.90
Total disagree bets: 0.59
Total weighted agree bets: 6911.803
Total weighted disagree bets: 403.618

This gives them 2 more months to get them to customers. As soon as I get the money Josh's mother owes me, I will add more to the bet.

peace and love BFL XOXOXOXOX

Tom, did someone hack your account again? Huh

?? (what do you mean "add more" ?? shouldn't that be customer refunds??? ) Huh

Reminds me of this one time at btctalk.org:

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/9982/tom22jansummary.png

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/4645/tom22janbasicrefundthre.png

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/2263/tom22janavalonthread.png

oh there it is..

Frankie Delaney

newbie

Activity: 56

Merit: 0

So Luke-Jr, would you say it would be fair for BFL to update their advertising with "now shipping"?

Syke

legendary

Activity: 3878

Merit: 1193

Quote from: Luke-Jr on April 01, 2013, 10:18:01 PM

Please note that I have physically handled my unit, and BFL has it at their office now only at my own request that they keep it there for the time being.
As I understand it, BFL's "shipping" refers to their Batch 1 which has special shipping constraints. The plan to provide units to developers in advance, including the ones I paid for such as this Little Single, has been there all along, so it would be unreasonable IMO to exclude it from the bet.
I believe you should be able to verify that I have no stake in the bet (unless it's semi-anonymous or something); I have no objections if you wish to disclose that.

"Butterfly Labs will not ship ASIC-based Bitforce SC products before April 2013"

A prototype sitting on a bench at BFL does not qualify as "shipped", no matter how much you fondled it.

Luke-Jr

legendary

Activity: 2576

Merit: 1186

Quote from: coinjedi on April 01, 2013, 10:12:00 PM

Hello everyone,

As it is part of running a betting service, sometimes we have to make some decisions that will not please all of our users. This is certainly one of these cases. I agree that the bet description statements are barely satisfied but the bet is actually on "shipping" of a commercial product. To the best of our judgment the pictured device is still an internal development unit within the company premises, even if it is somehow "owned" by a non-employee. As far as I can see even BFL doesn't officially claim shipping. Under these circumstances we can not rule the statement as false. Our decision is currently not final and we will be listening your input for a few days before the final decision. Feel free to raise your opinion.

Please note that I have physically handled my unit, and BFL has it at their office now only at my own request that they keep it there for the time being.
As I understand it, BFL's "shipping" refers to their Batch 1 which has special shipping constraints. The plan to provide units to developers in advance, including the ones I paid for such as this Little Single, has been there all along, so it would be unreasonable IMO to exclude it from the bet.
I believe you should be able to verify that I have no stake in the bet (unless it's semi-anonymous or something); I have no objections if you wish to disclose that.

Frankie Delaney

newbie

Activity: 56

Merit: 0

Nothing was moved, nothing was shipped. picking one board on the test bench, taking a picture of it, and saying "that one belongs to some other guy, we shipped!" is retarded.

coinjedi

full member

Activity: 184

Merit: 100

Hello everyone,

As it is part of running a betting service, sometimes we have to make some decisions that will not please all of our users. This is certainly one of these cases. I agree that the bet description statements are barely satisfied but the bet is actually on "shipping" of a commercial product. To the best of our judgment the pictured device is still an internal development unit within the company premises, even if it is somehow "owned" by a non-employee. As far as I can see even BFL doesn't officially claim shipping. Under these circumstances we can not rule the statement as false. Our decision is currently not final and we will be listening your input for a few days before the final decision. Feel free to raise your opinion.

Wayne_Chang

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

I prefer to the view point that the passive heatsink BFL used can not handle the heat power of 180W. Unless the technology they used is better than Intel. Grin

cablepair

hero member

Activity: 896

Merit: 1000

Buy this account on March-2019. New Owner here!!

http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=1444

BFL will Not ship any ASICS to customers by May 1st
Butterfly Labs will not ship any ASIC based mining devices to customers by May 1st 2013

according to this they are saying they will be shipping withing a couple of weeks.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1697916

Info
Opening date: March 31, 2013
Bet deadline: April 29, 2013 end of day Eastern Time
Event date: May 1, 2013 end of day Eastern Time
Category: Technology
Total agree bets: 9.90
Total disagree bets: 0.59
Total weighted agree bets: 6911.803
Total weighted disagree bets: 403.618

This gives them 2 more months to get them to customers. As soon as I get the money Josh's mother owes me, I will add more to the bet.

peace and love BFL XOXOXOXOX

Syke

legendary

Activity: 3878

Merit: 1193

Quote from: JordanL on April 01, 2013, 09:12:23 AM

• Before April 1st 2013, at least one BFL customer with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum, including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate. This customer cannot be a BFL employee.

Sure, the bet could have been worded more clearly, but the intent of the bet is clear. The photo was taken by BFL at a BFL facility, and thus doesn't qualify as a credible photo.

Miner99er

sr. member

Activity: 310

Merit: 250

Obligatory

Topic: First BFL ASIC! - page 24. (Read 58323 times)