France plane crash: No survivors expected [Condolences to the families] - page 2.

Lorenzo

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It's really a catch 22 situation. If a pilot is depressed, then it's not really in their best interests to seek help and report it since it means that they will no longer be allowed to fly planes. However, if they didn't report it and kept it a secret to their employer, then they will continue to fly while depressed and without treatment which would only worsen things even further and make situations like this even more common.

Just a thought but would it not be possible to give pilots who report their mental health an equally high paying job on the ground instead? At least until their condition improves?

Quote from: jaysabi on April 02, 2015, 06:48:34 PM

Quote from: criptix on April 02, 2015, 04:54:46 PM

Just watched german news.

right now if you fly in the eu there is no id control if you check into the airplane.
this is gonna change now, reason is that the police had great trouble of identifying the victims.

There is also more information about the co pilot.
the german police found his tablet which he used to get information about suicide and the technical aspects of security doors to the pilot cabin.

As a co-pilot, wouldn't he know how the cockpit security door works? That seems odd he would search for that.

Yeah, it does seem a bit odd. However, he was a newbie pilot with just 600 hours of flying time and I doubt pilot training schools go into depth about how the security door works, how it's reinforced, etc. - i.e. information that would probably be of great interest to someone who wanted to do the things that he did. Sad

jaysabi

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Quote from: criptix on April 02, 2015, 04:54:46 PM

Just watched german news.

right now if you fly in the eu there is no id control if you check into the airplane.
this is gonna change now, reason is that the police had great trouble of identifying the victims.

There is also more information about the co pilot.
the german police found his tablet which he used to get information about suicide and the technical aspects of security doors to the pilot cabin.

As a co-pilot, wouldn't he know how the cockpit security door works? That seems odd he would search for that.

criptix

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Just watched german news.

right now if you fly in the eu there is no id control if you check into the airplane.
this is gonna change now, reason is that the police had great trouble of identifying the victims.

There is also more information about the co pilot.
the german police found his tablet which he used to get information about suicide and the technical aspects of security doors to the pilot cabin.

jaysabi

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Finding evidence to support a finding of premeditation.

Quote from: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/prosecutors-lubitz-probed-suicide-methods-cockpit-security/ar-AAalGDv?ocid=ansnewsap11

BERLIN (AP) — The co-pilot of Germanwings Flight 9525 appears to have researched suicide methods and cockpit door security in the days before he crashed the plane into the French Alps, killing everyone aboard, German prosecutors said Thursday.

Search terms found on a tablet computer at co-pilot Andreas Lubitz's apartment in Duesseldorf provided the first evidence that his actions may have been premeditated.

More: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/prosecutors-lubitz-probed-suicide-methods-cockpit-security/ar-AAalGDv?ocid=ansnewsap11

Lorenzo

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Quote from: abyrnes81 on April 01, 2015, 02:49:12 PM

(Reuters) - A video of the final seconds aboard the Germanwings plane that crashed in France last week has been discovered, reports said on Wednesday, just hours before executives visiting the crash site dodged questions about the mental health of the pilot.

The video was found on a mobile phone belonging to one of the passengers killed on the plane which investigators say German pilot Andreas Lubitz deliberately flew into a mountain in the French Alps, Bild newspaper reported.

The scenes seen on the video were chaotic and very wobbly, said Bild, adding screams and shouts of "My God" could be heard, indicating the passengers knew what was happening.

Prosecutor Brice Robin, who is handling the case in France, said the phones collected from the crash had yet to be analyzed and were being kept on site. France's BEA investigation authority could not immediately be reached for comment.

A video : http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/04/01/us-france-crash-idUSKBN0MS3JI20150401

Well this is confusing. MSN claims that the video was deemed to be a fake:

Quote from: MSN

Severe doubts have been cast on the authenticity of a video which appears to show blurred and chaotic scenes within the Germanwings airbus just before it crashed last week.

The German newspaper Bild and the French magazine Paris Match both reported that they had seen the brief video, allegedly found in a mobile telephone memory card at the crash scene.

The Marseilles prosecutor Brice Robin, who is leading a judicial investigation of the crash, said that no memory cards from mobile telephones found at the crash site had yet been analysed. A senior gendarmerie officer, Jean-Marc Menichini, said that reports of the existence of such a video, a few seconds long, were "false".

Other investigation sources suggested that a memory card might have been picked up by a rescue worker and sold to the media rather than officially declared. But they said that they thought that it was more likely that the two publications had been hoaxed...

Source: http://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/germanwings-plane-crash-video-that-reveals-chaos-in-moments-before-disaster-is-a-fake-insist-investigators-into-french-alps-tragedy/ar-AAaiLHh

But I see many other news sites saying the opposite too. For example, this article was published just an hour ago and seems to support the idea that the video is real:

Quote from: Reuters

...On the video, which Bild described as being "indisputably authentic", a banging of metal could be heard at least three times, possibly the sound of the pilot who had been locked out of the cockpit by Lubitz trying to break through the door...

abyrnes81

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(Reuters) - A video of the final seconds aboard the Germanwings plane that crashed in France last week has been discovered, reports said on Wednesday, just hours before executives visiting the crash site dodged questions about the mental health of the pilot.

The video was found on a mobile phone belonging to one of the passengers killed on the plane which investigators say German pilot Andreas Lubitz deliberately flew into a mountain in the French Alps, Bild newspaper reported.

The scenes seen on the video were chaotic and very wobbly, said Bild, adding screams and shouts of "My God" could be heard, indicating the passengers knew what was happening.

Prosecutor Brice Robin, who is handling the case in France, said the phones collected from the crash had yet to be analyzed and were being kept on site. France's BEA investigation authority could not immediately be reached for comment.

A video : http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/04/01/us-france-crash-idUSKBN0MS3JI20150401

Bizmark13

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Quote from: bitcoin1992 on March 30, 2015, 08:18:04 PM

How do they know he took an axe to the door? It is all based on sounds. I'm sure he was hitting with anything he could find

It was probably a guess and the sounds from the cockpit voice recorder were similar to that of an axe pounding on metal. Later news reports claim that an axe wasn't used since the only axe in the plane was actually located inside the cockpit. It has been suggested that the captain used a crowbar instead:

Quote from: NBC News

It is unclear what tool the captain turned to in his attempt to break the cockpit door open and save the plane, his crew and his passengers.

Boris Ogursky, a spokesman for Lufthansa, which owns Germanwings, said all the company's planes have an axe, but it would have been locked in the cockpit with the co-pilot. Two aviation sources told NBC News that many commercial aircrafts have a hidden crowbar in case the crew needs to break into a bathroom for any reason.

Source: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/german-plane-crash/germanwings-pilot-patrick-sonderheimer-fought-open-locked-cockpit-n332206

Morbid

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http://82.221.129.208/a320crash.html

redsn0w

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A 'good' news :

Earlier Tuesday, Lufthansa said its insurer, Allianz, had set aside $300 million to “deal with all costs arising in connection with the crash,” Lufthansa spokeswoman Kerstin Lau said. Lufthansa also announced that the company has canceled proposed celebrations of its 60th anniversary on April 15 "out of respect for the crash victims of flight 4U9525."

“Instead of the originally planned anniversary event, Lufthansa will provide a live broadcast for its employees of the official state ceremony in the Cologne Cathedral on the 17th of April 2015, where the bereaved families and friends will gather to remember the victims.”

More at: http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-france-crash-lufthansa-pilot-depression-20150331-story.html

bitcoin1992

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How do they know he took an axe to the door? It is all based on sounds. I'm sure he was hitting with anything he could find

Spendulus

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Quote from: roadbits on March 30, 2015, 02:15:51 AM

Why did the airlines not require their pilot's doctors to notify the airline if the pilot is unfit to fly?

Not the airline, but the FAA medical examiner, who can revoke the pilot's license. In the case here, you had a pilot who was lying about his condition.

Likely he went to a different doctor (in Europe the doc could even have been in a different country) for the depression and medications for it, than the doctor he used in conjunction with his flight status. Perhaps he paid cash.

In the US, his medical history would have been disqualifying with, I believe, no exceptions.

bitgeek

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Quote from: u9y42 on March 30, 2015, 03:21:01 AM

I haven't listened to the program, but going by your description alone, it seems unlikely that was the case; the pilot was apparently calm enough to breathe normally, yet he completely failed to respond to those outside who were trying to open the door - then add to that the time this whole thing lasted, and the pilot's experience.

They had a number of ideas. Some other were that the tapes weren't released, the events were instead described on the base of the tapes. It's not an actual proof.
There were also cases of Airbus pilots feeling dizzy because of fumes from leaking hydraulic fluid, and the most important thing: this plane has systems that don't allow the pilot to suddenly start diving and crash it, but maybe he knew how to override it, just like he knew how to block the door from the inside. There's definitely a lot of questions here.
They also pointed out that it's extremely rare for a pilot to go to the toilet during such a short flight and I agree with this, as I've flown over 10 times in German 320s and never seen a pilot go out during the flight.

I remember a similar situation when the plane carrying the Polish president crashed, killing everyone on board. Years have passed since that day but the questions still remain.

redsn0w

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Another two interesting article about this bad story Undecided

:

It will be mandatory for two people to be in the cockpit at all times on all international and domestic flights, the Federal Government says. Authorities reviewed Australia's aviation regulations after 150 people were killed when a Germanwings plane crashed in the French Alps last week. Co-pilot Andreas Lubitz has been blamed for the crash, and was alone in the cockpit when the plane slammed into the mountainside. Deputy Prime Minister Warren Truss said the new policy would apply to aircraft with 50 or more passengers.

More at: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-30/federal-government-announces-new-cockpit-safety-standards/6358474

Alps plane crash: What happened?

The co-pilot of a Germanwings flight that crashed into the French Alps sent the plane into its doomed descent "intentionally", according to French investigators. He was alone in the cockpit when he initiated the plane's dive and refused to allow the captain back through the cockpit door, they said. Speculation over the reasons for his actions has centred around the co-pilot's mental wellbeing. The German A320 Airbus flight 4U 9525 from Barcelona to Duesseldorf came down in a remote mountain valley in France on Tuesday 24 March, killing all 150 people on board.

More at: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32035121

I really want to know what is happened in that day, and maybe if it is related with any passengers.

u9y42

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Quote from: roadbits on March 30, 2015, 02:15:51 AM

Why did the airlines not require their pilot's doctors to notify the airline if the pilot is unfit to fly?

As previously mentioned, the periodical medical tests pilots go through don't usually include psychological assessment - and those that do include it, never do so in great detail.

Quote from: bitgeek on March 30, 2015, 02:00:07 AM

Quote from: Transisto on March 28, 2015, 01:52:18 PM

Always fun to listen to these guys,,, always good analysis of major events.

https://www.noagendaplayer.com/listen/707/12-58

On the Germanwing Crash

I listened to the whole thing. It's actually an interesting point of view.
For those who didn't listen to the program, they pointed out that everything a pilot does is calculated by the computer and then if it agrees with the pilot it allows the plane to perform a maneuver.
There were cases when the computer decided to decrease altitude by itself, so it's possible the plane was going down by itself and the pilot couldn't just leave his seat to open the door as he was struggling with the controls.

Cockpit cameras are probably coming, it's just a matter of time.

I haven't listened to the program, but going by your description alone, it seems unlikely that was the case; the pilot was apparently calm enough to breathe normally, yet he completely failed to respond to those outside who were trying to open the door - then add to that the time this whole thing lasted, and the pilot's experience.

stonehedge

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Two things

- 2014 was actually the safest year on record for commercial flying if you exclude the shooting down of the plane over the Ukraine. I know lots of civilians died but for the purposes of airline safety statistics, acts of war are generally excluded.

- It is grossly offensive to suggest that depression was the reason this plane was crashed and those people murdered. It shows a misunderstanding of what depression is. Whatever the reason is that the co-pilot crashed that plane, it wasn't simply because he had been treated for depression . It could even have been a failure by his GP to taper his depression medication appropriately. There is also a non-depression health related issue that will be reported in the coming days which may have been a contributing factor to his state of mind.

Suicide is never a rational act. Attempting to rationalise it by using depression as a cause is at least partially misleading and the mass media (at least in the UK) has been shameful in its reporting.

roadbits

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Why did the airlines not require their pilot's doctors to notify the airline if the pilot is unfit to fly?

bitgeek

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Quote from: Transisto on March 28, 2015, 01:52:18 PM

Always fun to listen to these guys,,, always good analysis of major events.

https://www.noagendaplayer.com/listen/707/12-58

On the Germanwing Crash

I listened to the whole thing. It's actually an interesting point of view.
For those who didn't listen to the program, they pointed out that everything a pilot does is calculated by the computer and then if it agrees with the pilot it allows the plane to perform a maneuver.
There were cases when the computer decided to decrease altitude by itself, so it's possible the plane was going down by itself and the pilot couldn't just leave his seat to open the door as he was struggling with the controls.

Cockpit cameras are probably coming, it's just a matter of time.

Agestorzrxx

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Lessons need to learnt from this horrific tragedy. There should be 3 people in the cockpit (all pilots) if one leaves the cockpit there is another in place at all times. Depression can happen to anyone at anytime- some recover quicker and for others it take years - more tests to be done more regularly for pilots who have already suffer from depression. This may or may not stop this from happening again but safeguards need to be in place. Focus need to be on safety than profits too.

Vod

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All of this "was the copilot alive" could have been solved with video in the cockpit.

Unlike many other vehicles operating with heightened safety concerns, airline cockpits don't come with video surveillance. The reason, in part, is that airline pilots and their unions have argued vigorously against what they see as an invasion of privacy Huh

that would not improve aviation safety.

How can you expect to have privacy when you are in charge of 150+ people's lives?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-27/why-the-final-moments-inside-the-germanwings-cockpit-are-heard-and-not-seen

Bizmark13

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Quote from: Spendulus on March 29, 2015, 09:41:03 AM

A decompression in the cockpit would have blown the door open, not closed it more firmly. Pilots usually have oxygen masks that auto inflate above 25,000 feet, since there is no time at those altitudes to grab a mask and put it on, should decompression occur.

If there is a decompression, wouldn't the air pressure in the cabin compartment be greater than the air pressure in the cockpit? And since air tends to expand outwards, wouldn't that cause the cockpit door to slam shut (assuming that the cockpit door doesn't open into the cockpit).

EDIT: Nevermind. Looks like the door actually opens into the cockpit:

Quote from: Buffer Overflow on March 29, 2015, 09:43:00 AM

The cockpit voice recorder heard the faint breathing of the co-pilot as the plane descended. It would of certainly heard a broken window.

This is probably true.

Topic: France plane crash: No survivors expected [Condolences to the families] - page 2. (Read 7989 times)