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Topic: Gambling Abuse ... (Read 1019 times)

hero member
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🇺🇦 Glory to Ukraine!
September 21, 2023, 01:07:37 PM
Take the recent stake casino hack for instance, the hackers were not gambling on the casino but yet their abused the casino systems and pulled out a large sum of money from the casinos, and in some cases gamblers accounts are not spare in such attacks too.

But do we actually know how the Stake wallet was hacked? Was it hacked at all, or was it an inside job, a leak of sensitive data, poor operational security, a software flaw, or something else? We will probably never know for sure.
hero member
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Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
September 21, 2023, 12:58:29 PM
As for your second definition, there's just a small chance that there could be exploits and hacks that we can perform on gambling sites. And if ever we do that, they can easily find out what we did and we can't even withdraw our winnings.
I am not talking about abused by the gambler because gamblers can at most abuse the bonus system but the use of bot and hacking of casinos which is also another form of abuse are done from outsider attackers who target both the casino and they clients at will and making sure to exploit any chance to steal from the accounts.
Take the recent stake casino hack for instance, the hackers were not gambling on the casino but yet their abused the casino systems and pulled out a large sum of money from the casinos, and in some cases gamblers accounts are not spare in such attacks too.
hero member
Activity: 2660
Merit: 551
September 21, 2023, 07:27:18 AM

Is It Possible To Abuse gambling?
Answer is Yes ..

What is Gambling Abuse?
Gambling abuse is simply defined as gambling with a motive that is different from the real purpose why gambling is in existence.

By gambling abuse, we mean when a person becomes addicted to gambling and continues to abuse it. Some individuals choose gambling as their source of income when they gamble here and abuse it. We know gambling firstly if a person starts betting then he becomes more addicted to it and gradually he gets greedy for casinos. Many times it is seen that when a gambler goes to bet big sums he decides to bet all the money instead of taking it as a source of income but not being able to handle the greed with that money. But when he bets with all his money then he loses his money and he is very broke and it is only because of his abuse.
The word gambling abuse can mean two ways, there is the one that the individual abuse gambling by getting uncontrollably addicted to gambling as you mentioned, and the other form of gambling abuse is the abuse that the gambler try to abuse the features and promotions of the casino in other the cash out on the casino, but then most evil comes from the second form of abuse which can sometimes be in form of hacking of the casino or using a bot to beat the house edge.
So gambling addiction is the lesser form of abuse since the impact of such abuse is on the gambler himself.

I think it could be the initial definition that you put it, at least that's who I understand. We become addicted and then we abuse everything around it, even our families and not prioritizing them, just bring food in the table and others that our family needed.

As for your second definition, it's just a small chance that there could be exploits and hacks that we can perform on gambling sites. And if ever we do that, they can easily find out what we did and we can't even withdraw our winnings.
hero member
Activity: 1106
Merit: 526
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
September 21, 2023, 06:18:44 AM

Is It Possible To Abuse gambling?
Answer is Yes ..

What is Gambling Abuse?
Gambling abuse is simply defined as gambling with a motive that is different from the real purpose why gambling is in existence.

By gambling abuse, we mean when a person becomes addicted to gambling and continues to abuse it. Some individuals choose gambling as their source of income when they gamble here and abuse it. We know gambling firstly if a person starts betting then he becomes more addicted to it and gradually he gets greedy for casinos. Many times it is seen that when a gambler goes to bet big sums he decides to bet all the money instead of taking it as a source of income but not being able to handle the greed with that money. But when he bets with all his money then he loses his money and he is very broke and it is only because of his abuse.
The word gambling abuse can mean two ways, there is the one that the individual abuse gambling by getting uncontrollably addicted to gambling as you mentioned, and the other form of gambling abuse is the abuse that the gambler try to abuse the features and promotions of the casino in other the cash out on the casino, but then most evil comes from the second form of abuse which can sometimes be in form of hacking of the casino or using a bot to beat the house edge.
So gambling addiction is the lesser form of abuse since the impact of such abuse is on the gambler himself.
hero member
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August 16, 2023, 08:54:27 AM
~snip~
It is true that both reasons for gambling bring a gambler back again and again. Some gamblers are motivated to win more after they win and some lose and come back to recover that money. If one can enjoy the pleasure of gambling for once, he will definitely try to continue gambling. Every gambler should be calm in that situation. Greed will work in gamblers but if they control that greed they will not suffer rather they will gain more. If someone acquires a good knowledge of self-control before gambling, they can do relatively better in gambling.
If they can't control their greed, they will continue to lose money, especially if they can't control themselves in trying to recover from previous losses. They will not be able to enjoy gambling as entertainment, instead, they will chase victory, which will be more difficult. It is better that they can control themselves to prevent the greed that will come to them, especially when they can win at gambling. They will not experience more losses because of the self-control they have exercised, and they can use gambling as entertainment.

~snip~
Not only someone who is addicted to gambling, but anyone anywhere who has the intention or purpose of using gambling to be able to provide personal gain will certainly not think of abusing gambling, for example, someone who has a crime case related to large amounts of will definitely only think of using gambling as a a place to launder all the money in order to get rid of evidence or traces of crime.
That's natural because everyone, especially those who are still beginners, have more high curiosity and don't even care about the risks involved and the most important thing is that they prioritize to be able to win, win and win in greater numbers.
Whether they win or lose, I think they will keep coming back to gambling because gambling has changed the point of view, way of thinking and also the initial purpose of getting into gambling.
For those who are already fond of gambling it will still be difficult to avoid gambling again and the shadow of defeat appears every time which makes the feeling of wanting to get back the lost money in.
They will think about how to achieve their goals and intentions, perhaps they will even try to use them for illegal activities that the casino prohibits. But they don't care and will do it anyway. When someone has had fun playing gambling, they will return another day and perhaps use more money. And that has happened to other people who have played gambling more often, but in getting wins, they are still having trouble. Only good self-control can stop gamblers from sinking too deep into gambling and prevent problems that can occur while gambling. But if they only want to win, it won't be easy for them to stop gambling or even take a break from gambling for a while.

~snip~
Abuse can be done from all elements that meet the requirements to do so. in gambling, it doesn't feel right if someone becomes addicted to gambling and then we categorize it as abuse. if we refer to the OP thread, especially those related to drugs, which should be redeemed through a doctor's prescription. we can conclude, if someone buys it illegally then clearly he has made a mistake and is included in the category of abuse.

But for gambling, IMO it is very biased if we try to compare it. At present gambling is included in the category of types of entertainment in the modern era, in fact there are many countries that have legalized it. legally every gambler who becomes an addict, is the result of his own fault. So, no abuse in this case. well, as I said above, gambling abuse can be done from all elements that qualify to abuse it. for example, cheating on the casino, or, trying to sell an account that is actually not allowed by the casino. there are many other examples, which fall into the category of abuse. however, not for gamblers who become addicts.
Abuse occurs when we use it excessively. So in terms of gambling, if we use gambling excessively or in the sense that we exceed the limits we set, it means that we have abused the use of gambling intended to get entertainment. But instead, we use gambling as a way to earn income where it will not always work. Maybe some people can get money from gambling, but many are not successful and instead lose a lot of money.

So if someone uses gambling excessively, he has the risk of losing more money and also becoming addicted. It will start from being addicted to playing different gambling games again until he finally becomes comfortable playing gambling. And if they remain oblivious to what they are doing, the addiction will grow and eventually develop into a full-blown gambling addiction.
hero member
Activity: 1652
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OrangeFren.com
August 15, 2023, 04:55:03 PM
Gambling may either make or break a person. It's a game, so don't become engrossed because there are both positive and negative outcomes. Addicts take advantage of their situation and lose practically everything when they go on a losing sprint. Gambling eventually emptied one's bank account. It's always best to approach the system with the correct stable mindset, rather than the gambling one that's eager to risk everything for a chance to win. Gambling does not operate that way; instead, it should be viewed as a route activity that keeps us engaged in our spare time, and we foresee and take calculated risks on our principles, rather than the other way around.

Gambling will give the opportunity or get the gambler into the loan.When the profit get from the gambling,most gamblers will recreate his own life in different manner.Mostly the gambler will start the business with the wining money,few will reinvest the entire money into gambling to get the big fish.But the big fish concept may or may not works.The addicted had a chance of losing the entire funds to the gambling.But normal gamblers will use the winning money very productively.The addicted will empty their bank account after the entire winning money may loss.Because the addicted will playing the gambling with the emotions.
legendary
Activity: 2548
Merit: 1009
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
August 15, 2023, 12:45:52 PM
By gambling abuse we mean when a person becomes addicted to gambling and continues to abuse it. There are individuals who choose gambling as their source of income when they gamble here and abuse it. We know gambling firstly if a person starts betting then he becomes more addicted to it and gradually he gets greedy for casino. Many times it is seen that when a gambler goes to bet big sums he decides to bet all the money instead of taking it as a source of income but not being able to handle the greed with that money. But when he bets with all his money then he loses his money and he is very broke and it is only because of his abuse.
A person with a gambling addiction may not think about gambling abuse because he wants to win. And perhaps he will use all kinds of ways to get the win, including methods considered gambling abuse. And when a person is gambling for the first time, it can be very easy for him to return to the casino because he will remember what he got the first time he gambled, and if he wins, he wants to get it again. And if he loses, maybe he wants to avenge or recover his defeat first. But he should be able to avoid gambling again because it might not give him a win or be able to recover from his losses because gambling could give him another loss.

Abuse can be done from all elements that meet the requirements to do so. in gambling, it doesn't feel right if someone becomes addicted to gambling and then we categorize it as abuse. if we refer to the OP thread, especially those related to drugs, which should be redeemed through a doctor's prescription. we can conclude, if someone buys it illegally then clearly he has made a mistake and is included in the category of abuse.

But for gambling, IMO it is very biased if we try to compare it. At present gambling is included in the category of types of entertainment in the modern era, in fact there are many countries that have legalized it. legally every gambler who becomes an addict, is the result of his own fault. So, no abuse in this case. well, as I said above, gambling abuse can be done from all elements that qualify to abuse it. for example, cheating on the casino, or, trying to sell an account that is actually not allowed by the casino. there are many other examples, which fall into the category of abuse. however, not for gamblers who become addicts.
hero member
Activity: 1708
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Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
August 15, 2023, 12:38:58 PM
By gambling abuse we mean when a person becomes addicted to gambling and continues to abuse it. There are individuals who choose gambling as their source of income when they gamble here and abuse it. We know gambling firstly if a person starts betting then he becomes more addicted to it and gradually he gets greedy for casino. Many times it is seen that when a gambler goes to bet big sums he decides to bet all the money instead of taking it as a source of income but not being able to handle the greed with that money. But when he bets with all his money then he loses his money and he is very broke and it is only because of his abuse.
A person with a gambling addiction may not think about gambling abuse because he wants to win. And perhaps he will use all kinds of ways to get the win, including methods considered gambling abuse. And when a person is gambling for the first time, it can be very easy for him to return to the casino because he will remember what he got the first time he gambled, and if he wins, he wants to get it again. And if he loses, maybe he wants to avenge or recover his defeat first. But he should be able to avoid gambling again because it might not give him a win or be able to recover from his losses because gambling could give him another loss.
Not only someone who is addicted to gambling, but anyone anywhere who has the intention or purpose of using gambling to be able to provide personal gain will certainly not think of abusing gambling, for example, someone who has a crime case related to large amounts of will definitely only think of using gambling as a a place to launder all the money in order to get rid of evidence or traces of crime.
That's natural because everyone, especially those who are still beginners, have more high curiosity and don't even care about the risks involved and the most important thing is that they prioritize to be able to win, win and win in greater numbers.
Whether they win or lose, I think they will keep coming back to gambling because gambling has changed the point of view, way of thinking and also the initial purpose of getting into gambling.
For those who are already fond of gambling it will still be difficult to avoid gambling again and the shadow of defeat appears every time which makes the feeling of wanting to get back the lost money in.
hero member
Activity: 2268
Merit: 588
You own the pen
August 15, 2023, 12:19:36 PM

It is true that both reasons for gambling bring a gambler back again and again. Some gamblers are motivated to win more after they win and some lose and come back to recover that money. If one can enjoy the pleasure of gambling for once, he will definitely try to continue gambling. Every gambler should be calm in that situation. Greed will work in gamblers but if they control that greed they will not suffer rather they will gain more. If someone acquires a good knowledge of self-control before gambling, they can do relatively better in gambling.

This is a common thing among gamblers because that's what makes them hype when they get some money to play again but the problem here is the negative effect of the addiction if the gambler cannot control himself to stop when things are not going well anymore for him but instead, he always pursues his goal to get back what he lost and probably do some crazy things just to fund his addiction. In our country, not only men but also women are now engaging in this kind of thing rather than raising their children well in their homes together.
sr. member
Activity: 980
Merit: 311
August 15, 2023, 12:03:07 PM
A person with a gambling addiction may not think about gambling abuse because he wants to win. And perhaps he will use all kinds of ways to get the win, including methods considered gambling abuse. And when a person is gambling for the first time, it can be very easy for him to return to the casino because he will remember what he got the first time he gambled, and if he wins, he wants to get it again. And if he loses, maybe he wants to avenge or recover his defeat first. But he should be able to avoid gambling again because it might not give him a win or be able to recover from his losses because gambling could give him another loss.
It is true that both reasons for gambling bring a gambler back again and again. Some gamblers are motivated to win more after they win and some lose and come back to recover that money. If one can enjoy the pleasure of gambling for once, he will definitely try to continue gambling. Every gambler should be calm in that situation. Greed will work in gamblers but if they control that greed they will not suffer rather they will gain more. If someone acquires a good knowledge of self-control before gambling, they can do relatively better in gambling.
hero member
Activity: 2912
Merit: 556
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August 15, 2023, 10:02:41 AM
By gambling abuse we mean when a person becomes addicted to gambling and continues to abuse it. There are individuals who choose gambling as their source of income when they gamble here and abuse it. We know gambling firstly if a person starts betting then he becomes more addicted to it and gradually he gets greedy for casino. Many times it is seen that when a gambler goes to bet big sums he decides to bet all the money instead of taking it as a source of income but not being able to handle the greed with that money. But when he bets with all his money then he loses his money and he is very broke and it is only because of his abuse.
A person with a gambling addiction may not think about gambling abuse because he wants to win. And perhaps he will use all kinds of ways to get the win, including methods considered gambling abuse. And when a person is gambling for the first time, it can be very easy for him to return to the casino because he will remember what he got the first time he gambled, and if he wins, he wants to get it again. And if he loses, maybe he wants to avenge or recover his defeat first. But he should be able to avoid gambling again because it might not give him a win or be able to recover from his losses because gambling could give him another loss.
hero member
Activity: 1148
Merit: 518
August 14, 2023, 11:44:38 PM
By gambling abuse we mean when a person becomes addicted to gambling and continues to abuse it. There are individuals who choose gambling as their source of income when they gamble here and abuse it. We know gambling firstly if a person starts betting then he becomes more addicted to it and gradually he gets greedy for casino. Many times it is seen that when a gambler goes to bet big sums he decides to bet all the money instead of taking it as a source of income but not being able to handle the greed with that money. But when he bets with all his money then he loses his money and he is very broke and it is only because of his abuse.
Gambling may either make or break a person. It's a game, so don't become engrossed because there are both positive and negative outcomes. Addicts take advantage of their situation and lose practically everything when they go on a losing sprint. Gambling eventually emptied one's bank account. It's always best to approach the system with the correct stable mindset, rather than the gambling one that's eager to risk everything for a chance to win. Gambling does not operate that way; instead, it should be viewed as a route activity that keeps us engaged in our spare time, and we foresee and take calculated risks on our principles, rather than the other way around.
hero member
Activity: 2716
Merit: 552
August 14, 2023, 10:58:59 PM
To look at the term deeper, let us know what abuse means:

Quote
a·buse
verb
/əˈbyo͞oz/
1.
use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse.


From the definition, abuse is to use something to bad effect or for a bad purpose.  Now integrating it to gambling, gambling abuse, since gambling has something to do with legal procedures, any means of gambling abuse is illegal and that makes it a crime.  We can agree to disagree but the fact that gambling abuse means using gambling for a bad effect or bad purpose makes it an offense the the gambling regulatory board.  Now would do we still think that gambling abuse(except problem gambling) isn't a crime?  Regardless if gambling is prohibited or allowed, when it is abused it means the abuser crossed the line thus they should be held accountable for a crime of gambling abuse (except problem gambling).

Gambling abuse does not always means that it has something to do with legal matters or anything that the authority has the power to abstain you for doing such illegal stuff while gambling, but it could also mean that it's an excessive gambling habits that it became uncontrollable, thus spending every penny the person has just to try and satisfy it's gambling needs or the urge to get a big win. Abuse has always something to do with doing something excessively, legally or illegally. Gambling away all your monthly payroll in a single night is not a crime, but an abuse.  You are held accountable for not a crime, but being an irresponsible person who can't control his urge to gamble. Especially when you're a family man.
Abusive act of crimes in gambling may involve in altering something to change the outcome of machine (slot machine for example) to make it more favorable on your side or any activities that cheats your way to a win inside a casino and being exploitative about it. That is a perfect example of illegal gambling abuse.
sr. member
Activity: 700
Merit: 380
🎗️🍁🎭
August 14, 2023, 09:11:21 PM

Is It Possible To Abuse gambling?
Answer is Yes ..

What is Gambling Abuse?
Gambling abuse is simply defined as gambling with a motive that is different from the real purpose why gambling is in existence.

By gambling abuse we mean when a person becomes addicted to gambling and continues to abuse it. There are individuals who choose gambling as their source of income when they gamble here and abuse it. We know gambling firstly if a person starts betting then he becomes more addicted to it and gradually he gets greedy for casino. Many times it is seen that when a gambler goes to bet big sums he decides to bet all the money instead of taking it as a source of income but not being able to handle the greed with that money. But when he bets with all his money then he loses his money and he is very broke and it is only because of his abuse.
hero member
Activity: 2660
Merit: 630
Vave.com - Crypto Casino
August 14, 2023, 03:53:54 PM
To look at the term deeper, let us know what abuse means:

Quote
a·buse
verb
/əˈbyo͞oz/
1.
use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse.


From the definition, abuse is to use something to bad effect or for a bad purpose.  Now integrating it to gambling, gambling abuse, since gambling has something to do with legal procedures, any means of gambling abuse is illegal and that makes it a crime.  We can agree to disagree but the fact that gambling abuse means using gambling for a bad effect or bad purpose makes it an offense the the gambling regulatory board.  Now would do we still think that gambling abuse(except problem gambling) isn't a crime?  Regardless if gambling is prohibited or allowed, when it is abused it means the abuser crossed the line thus they should be held accountable for a crime of gambling abuse (except problem gambling).

I think from the standpoint of op's meaning of gambling abuse, he is not dealing basically on the dictionary meaning of abuse or literal meaning but he is looking at it holistically to gambling and not to law, illegality or crime and money laundary etc. He is talking about the abuse that bettors have now started leaving the entertainment aspect of gambling and leaving out the profit benefits to the entertainment and now focusing on using gambling as a source of income.
hero member
Activity: 1918
Merit: 564
August 14, 2023, 03:06:35 PM
To look at the term deeper, let us know what abuse means:

Quote
a·buse
verb
/əˈbyo͞oz/
1.
use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse.


From the definition, abuse is to use something to bad effect or for a bad purpose.  Now integrating it to gambling, gambling abuse, since gambling has something to do with legal procedures, any means of gambling abuse is illegal and that makes it a crime.  We can agree to disagree but the fact that gambling abuse means using gambling for a bad effect or bad purpose makes it an offense the the gambling regulatory board.  Now would do we still think that gambling abuse(except problem gambling) isn't a crime?  Regardless if gambling is prohibited or allowed, when it is abused it means the abuser crossed the line thus they should be held accountable for a crime of gambling abuse (except problem gambling).
hero member
Activity: 1652
Merit: 518
OrangeFren.com
August 14, 2023, 01:25:45 PM
it all depends on the gambler behavior towards a site error or a bug occurs on the gambling site. I mean when Im gambling but it turns out that the site is leaking or there is a bug there but the gambler does not know that something is wrong, he just feels if he gets continuous wins it does not matter. but if gamblers who know deliberately take advantage of these bugs, it is clear that this should not be done because every casino regulation has rules if a bug occurs and someone uses it, it is the same as breaking the rules.

Some gamblers will take it as casual by knowing it's also the site as like the other normal website.But some get temper because of involving of money,if the website is get stuck at the time of game.Then most of the gamblers will get temp.Because losing because of bad luck is different from losing due to the bug or website get hanged.The gambler should take responsibility and report the bug to the gambling site.Then they will encounter the bug and the issue get resolved.If you lose some money due to website hang,you are free to ask the gambling site to refund the loss money.Mostly the gambling site will refund such money to the users.
sr. member
Activity: 2296
Merit: 348
August 08, 2023, 12:06:50 AM
what do you think about this?
Do you agree that gambling outside what gambling is meant for is abuse on gambling?
If you agree, what do you think should be done to gambling abusers if there was a way to catch them?
Should they be arrested and prosecuted same way drug abusers are arrested and prosecuted if caught?
Governments of any country use their existing laws to bring anything under control when anything goes too far and leads to a breakdown of law and order. I don't think anyone should be arrested for gambling if he loses a large amount or becomes intoxicated as a result of that loss. Because when gambling is done this kind of tendency is seen in almost many gamblers and after some time that effect also ends. In this case it does not seem that anyone should be arrested or brought to justice unless he is committing some other deadly crime.
Exactly, a person should only be arrested or punished if gambling is prohibited in a country and they are caught gambling, not because they are gambling to earn money through it, that's their choice, as long as gambling is allowed within their country and as long as they are not doing anything that is harming someone else, they are not guilty of anything apart from spending a lot of their own money for which none of us are responsible or has to do anything.

If someone gets addicted to gambling for gambling excessively or trying to earn a living through it, it's the responsibility of those living around that person to take care of this addiction because it will ultimately be harmful to them if he gets out of hand, and if he gets out of hand and does a crime, that's when the authorities should get involved.
hero member
Activity: 2758
Merit: 705
Dimon69
August 04, 2023, 11:00:51 AM
I agree with what @Shosondy said that gambling abuse is not a crime. Is it the fault of the gambling abuser if he finds a casino with a leak so that he can get a profit from it? It's not as if the fault lies with the casino's Gambling platform itself because they didn't organize their website well, so clever gambling abusers took advantage of them. Then these people who do this are probably also possible cheaters. Although it is rare for gamblers to do something like this to become addicted to gambling. That's why we gamblers should never forget to always be responsible for gambling and avoid becoming addicted to it.
it all depends on the gambler behavior towards a site error or a bug occurs on the gambling site. I mean when Im gambling but it turns out that the site is leaking or there is a bug there but the gambler does not know that something is wrong, he just feels if he gets continuous wins it does not matter. but if gamblers who know deliberately take advantage of these bugs, it is clear that this should not be done because every casino regulation has rules if a bug occurs and someone uses it, it is the same as breaking the rules.

I think they are talking about here if the act is a crime or not while breaking the casino ToS is not a crime in legal perspective. The gambler who abuse the bug will definitely receive consequences from the casino but they will not face legal charges as this is not a crime. Casino bug is due to the casino fault and it’s a human nature to have benefits since this is not happening in daily basis.

Regardless if someone deliberately abuse it or not. I think the casino will surely punish the players that in touch with the bug and manage to get profit from it.
legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 1039
Bitcoin Trader
August 04, 2023, 10:53:00 AM
I agree with what @Shosondy said that gambling abuse is not a crime. Is it the fault of the gambling abuser if he finds a casino with a leak so that he can get a profit from it? It's not as if the fault lies with the casino's Gambling platform itself because they didn't organize their website well, so clever gambling abusers took advantage of them. Then these people who do this are probably also possible cheaters. Although it is rare for gamblers to do something like this to become addicted to gambling. That's why we gamblers should never forget to always be responsible for gambling and avoid becoming addicted to it.
Everyone has a different view whatever it is, in my opinion, the name abuse is still bad behavior, for example in my developing country there is a cannabis plant which is strictly prohibited, including on the narcotics list so that abuse is still subject to crime, while we know that in developing countries it has been legalized it is for use as medicine not for abuse.

That's why whatever it is called abuse still looks bad but I still respect anyone's opinion and views for that I also think that addicts can take advantage of that situation when the casino leaks, that's why it's done there must be a certain reason maybe they experience defeat and spend a lot of money so they might take advantage of the moment when there is an opening to cheat the casino. no harm maybe for them but for me it's wrong. the point is don't gamble too deep  Cheesy
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