Topic: GAW ZenCloud ZenPool Hashlet - does it really exist? ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :-) - page 127. (Read 262935 times)
September 20, 2014, 12:37:23 PM
At this point it's probably worth considering going back to physical miners and Nicehash because unless hashlet prices drop more and the zenpool rate stops going down you'll be kicking that ROI period very far into the future.
September 20, 2014, 12:34:43 PM
Sorry for so many posts this morning, but has anyone ever had a physical Vaultbreaker shipped? Did VBs ever exist?
KNC already has units in the wild.
KNC already has units in the wild.
Nope, but the original estimate was end of Q3 / beginning of Q4 so technically they are still on time.
September 20, 2014, 12:30:55 PM
Sorry for so many posts this morning, but has anyone ever had a physical Vaultbreaker shipped? Did VBs ever exist?
KNC already has units in the wild.
KNC already has units in the wild.
September 20, 2014, 12:16:42 PM
Quote
For those that paid more, for them, don’t worry, we will not leave you behind! We will automatically credit your account the price difference from what you paid VS the new price.
[...]
For those of you that are selling your Primes:
If your Prime was for sale before this announcement, you will still get the same selling price. If it was put up for sale after this announcement, it will be adjusted to the new selling price (we will post that soon)
[...]
For those of you that are selling your Primes:
If your Prime was for sale before this announcement, you will still get the same selling price. If it was put up for sale after this announcement, it will be adjusted to the new selling price (we will post that soon)
Private purchases are not mentioned, so I'm assuming those who bought at >$25 are getting fucked really hard. Which is ok in my book
But if I have a Prime that I'm now trying to sell via the official marketplace/exchange/whatchamacallit at $40, who is going to buy it? I don't think that part makes sense.
Yea not sure how that will work unless GAW covers the difference... I put mine up for sale right when I saw the annoucement.. So hoping I get the 40 per instead of 20.
Well, if GAW is competent, then they will only give you the $20 ;p However, since it is GAW, no doubt they have no automated system in place to distinguish. Maybe you will get it sold for $40!
Yep, good point Suchmoon. If the biggest winner is that person that sold primes for more than $25, then the biggest loser is anyone who purchased them privately or had them transferred privately. That person would be a double loser.
Their share would not only be diluted, but they also overpaid for each share. Welcome to never ROI territory.
September 20, 2014, 12:14:22 PM
1. GAW fees are deducted at seemingly random times within a 10-12 hour window on any given day. This would give GAW the ability to selectively choose to convert your BTC into USD at moments most favorable to them. Just a few cents each time, done 400,000+ times, would be enough income to to run a business. (.03 = $340,000/month)
[...]
GAW customers assume the risk of BTC downtrends, while GAW makes money.
[...]
GAW customers assume the risk of BTC downtrends, while GAW makes money.
Yes, they should assess the fees in a more predictable manner. It doesn't have to be Coinbase, if that can be manipulated. Maybe some kind of a broader price index if such a thing exists.
As for the risk, it's the same risk you would have with real mining, isn't it? (assuming the fees are not manipulated). If you have a miner that produces BTC and consumes fiat (e.g. in the form of electricity or hosting) you have the risk of BTC going down and the power company or the hosting provider is making money.
I agree that is a very similar risk to actual mining, but there are some differences and those differences matter.
GAW taking the fees in USD instead of BTC unequivocally speaks to GAWs bearish stance on cryptocurrency. Call it good business, but realize that in structuring their fees this way GAW is taking a bet against their own customers. This creates a moral hazard that does not exist when the power company is on the other end.
If they used a daily average instead of a specific time or exchange rate, then that would likely deal with the problems that I raised. A daily average of Winkdex, or a similar index, would certainly eliminate outside or inside fee manipulation. (but still leave the problem with fees being in USD)
September 20, 2014, 12:13:59 PM
Quote
For those that paid more, for them, don’t worry, we will not leave you behind! We will automatically credit your account the price difference from what you paid VS the new price.
[...]
For those of you that are selling your Primes:
If your Prime was for sale before this announcement, you will still get the same selling price. If it was put up for sale after this announcement, it will be adjusted to the new selling price (we will post that soon)
[...]
For those of you that are selling your Primes:
If your Prime was for sale before this announcement, you will still get the same selling price. If it was put up for sale after this announcement, it will be adjusted to the new selling price (we will post that soon)
Private purchases are not mentioned, so I'm assuming those who bought at >$25 are getting fucked really hard. Which is ok in my book
But if I have a Prime that I'm now trying to sell via the official marketplace/exchange/whatchamacallit at $40, who is going to buy it? I don't think that part makes sense.
Yea not sure how that will work unless GAW covers the difference... I put mine up for sale right when I saw the annoucement.. So hoping I get the 40 per instead of 20.
September 20, 2014, 12:12:44 PM
Quote
For those that paid more, for them, don’t worry, we will not leave you behind! We will automatically credit your account the price difference from what you paid VS the new price.
[...]
For those of you that are selling your Primes:
If your Prime was for sale before this announcement, you will still get the same selling price. If it was put up for sale after this announcement, it will be adjusted to the new selling price (we will post that soon)
[...]
For those of you that are selling your Primes:
If your Prime was for sale before this announcement, you will still get the same selling price. If it was put up for sale after this announcement, it will be adjusted to the new selling price (we will post that soon)
Private purchases are not mentioned, so I'm assuming those who bought at >$25 are getting fucked really hard. Which is ok in my book
But if I have a Prime that I'm now trying to sell via the official marketplace/exchange/whatchamacallit at $40, who is going to buy it? I don't think that part makes sense.
September 20, 2014, 12:03:38 PM
1. GAW fees are deducted at seemingly random times within a 10-12 hour window on any given day. This would give GAW the ability to selectively choose to convert your BTC into USD at moments most favorable to them. Just a few cents each time, done 400,000+ times, would be enough income to to run a business. (.03 = $340,000/month)
[...]
GAW customers assume the risk of BTC downtrends, while GAW makes money.
[...]
GAW customers assume the risk of BTC downtrends, while GAW makes money.
Yes, they should assess the fees in a more predictable manner. It doesn't have to be Coinbase, if that can be manipulated. Maybe some kind of a broader price index if such a thing exists.
As for the risk, it's the same risk you would have with real mining, isn't it? (assuming the fees are not manipulated). If you have a miner that produces BTC and consumes fiat (e.g. in the form of electricity or hosting) you have the risk of BTC going down and the power company or the hosting provider is making money.
September 20, 2014, 11:56:01 AM
Well, those are quite the announcements.
It appears that those who sold their Hashlet's at more than $25 are the biggest winners thus far. Resale for hashlets will now be ~$21-$22.
This also destroys Hashlet solo value. Will Josh offer any recompense to people who purchased Hashlet solos instead of Primes while Primes were artificially inflated in price? Who would be happy with a hashlet solo when a prime can now be purchased second-hand for the same price?
Additionally, since primes are shares in GAW, this is tantamount to diluting the shares. Anyone who purchased at more than $25 will now have additional shares, which will certainly reduce payouts for each individual share. Payouts do not magically appear, so increasing the number of primes without additional revenue will certainly result in lower individual payouts per MH.
It appears that those who sold their Hashlet's at more than $25 are the biggest winners thus far. Resale for hashlets will now be ~$21-$22.
This also destroys Hashlet solo value. Will Josh offer any recompense to people who purchased Hashlet solos instead of Primes while Primes were artificially inflated in price? Who would be happy with a hashlet solo when a prime can now be purchased second-hand for the same price?
Additionally, since primes are shares in GAW, this is tantamount to diluting the shares. Anyone who purchased at more than $25 will now have additional shares, which will certainly reduce payouts for each individual share. Payouts do not magically appear, so increasing the number of primes without additional revenue will certainly result in lower individual payouts per MH.
September 20, 2014, 11:32:07 AM
https://hashtalk.org/topic/7458/pulling-all-primes-off-the-market/
2 hours later - https://hashtalk.org/topic/7469/hashlet-prime-pricing-change-sha-and-batch-2
Quote
In a few hours we will be pulling all Hashlet Primes off the market, they will not be able to be sold for the next few days.
We will be implementing a new structure for Hashlet Primes. This is why I did not make any announcement yesterday, I have been trying to solve a major issue with the structure of Hashlet Primes.
Right “out of the gate” the most challenging part of Hashlet Primes is that the majority of folks did not pay $50 for them. Actually, the largest group paid $16 or less, the second largest group between $20-$40, and the smallest group $50. But, all customers want the same amount of “extra features” we plan to add. Obviously, this is an issue we created for ourselves, I admit that. But none the less, it does not change the math we are working with.
Let me explain what I mean. All primes can mine at 1MH of scrypt. But, what happens when we allow for SHA mining on Primes? should the person that paid $16 be able to mine at the same speed as the person that paid $50? I have been struggling with this for weeks.
Don’t be alarmed, we will NOT be removing any feature you have currently have and all Primes WILL have the same upgrade path. But instead, implementing a structure to allow us to scale the concept of Primes for the future.
Many will like the idea, some will not. The good news for all is that it will allow us to finally move forward with some of the cool features we want to role out (SHA) Even allow is to finally get VB batch 2 out :grinning:
I will make a post here later today on our plan
We will be implementing a new structure for Hashlet Primes. This is why I did not make any announcement yesterday, I have been trying to solve a major issue with the structure of Hashlet Primes.
Right “out of the gate” the most challenging part of Hashlet Primes is that the majority of folks did not pay $50 for them. Actually, the largest group paid $16 or less, the second largest group between $20-$40, and the smallest group $50. But, all customers want the same amount of “extra features” we plan to add. Obviously, this is an issue we created for ourselves, I admit that. But none the less, it does not change the math we are working with.
Let me explain what I mean. All primes can mine at 1MH of scrypt. But, what happens when we allow for SHA mining on Primes? should the person that paid $16 be able to mine at the same speed as the person that paid $50? I have been struggling with this for weeks.
Don’t be alarmed, we will NOT be removing any feature you have currently have and all Primes WILL have the same upgrade path. But instead, implementing a structure to allow us to scale the concept of Primes for the future.
Many will like the idea, some will not. The good news for all is that it will allow us to finally move forward with some of the cool features we want to role out (SHA) Even allow is to finally get VB batch 2 out :grinning:
I will make a post here later today on our plan
2 hours later - https://hashtalk.org/topic/7469/hashlet-prime-pricing-change-sha-and-batch-2
Quote
Since no one knows the changes we planned to make, and some of you just expected the worst, I will come out with it :grinning:
Our main goal here at GAW is to bring mining to everyone in the world! One of the most common questions we get asked is to lower the price of Hashlet Primes so they become more affordable for the “average user”
Hashlet Solos can be confusing for new miners, and Primes can be too expensive for them. We think its important to be accessible to all miners.
This is something we have wanted to do for a while, but have not been able to figure out a good way as many of you paid a lot for your Hashlet Primes!
Here is what we are going to do:
Starting September 24th, we will be lowering the price of Hashlet Primes to $25
For those that paid more, for them, don’t worry, we will not leave you behind! We will automatically credit your account the price difference from what you paid VS the new price.
To repeat, all customers that paid more will receive a credit for the difference of what they paid VS the new price.
All Hashlet Primes will continue to have all the same awesome features as before but just at a much better price!
For those of you that are selling your Primes:
If your Prime was for sale before this announcement, you will still get the same selling price. If it was put up for sale after this announcement, it will be adjusted to the new selling price (we will post that soon)
Again, if you paid MORE for your Hashlet Prime, you will receive a credit equal to the extra amount you paid, so in all cases, the math will still be the same for you.
Other Things
I know we are little behind, the software changes we had to make really put us behind!
But, I am happy to announce that all Hashlet Primes will be able to mine 40 GH of SHA at the end of next week :grinning:
PS. all VB Batch 2 customers will get a 1:1 ratio of Hashlet Primes at the end of next week too :grinning:
Josh
Our main goal here at GAW is to bring mining to everyone in the world! One of the most common questions we get asked is to lower the price of Hashlet Primes so they become more affordable for the “average user”
Hashlet Solos can be confusing for new miners, and Primes can be too expensive for them. We think its important to be accessible to all miners.
This is something we have wanted to do for a while, but have not been able to figure out a good way as many of you paid a lot for your Hashlet Primes!
Here is what we are going to do:
Starting September 24th, we will be lowering the price of Hashlet Primes to $25
For those that paid more, for them, don’t worry, we will not leave you behind! We will automatically credit your account the price difference from what you paid VS the new price.
To repeat, all customers that paid more will receive a credit for the difference of what they paid VS the new price.
All Hashlet Primes will continue to have all the same awesome features as before but just at a much better price!
For those of you that are selling your Primes:
If your Prime was for sale before this announcement, you will still get the same selling price. If it was put up for sale after this announcement, it will be adjusted to the new selling price (we will post that soon)
Again, if you paid MORE for your Hashlet Prime, you will receive a credit equal to the extra amount you paid, so in all cases, the math will still be the same for you.
Other Things
I know we are little behind, the software changes we had to make really put us behind!
But, I am happy to announce that all Hashlet Primes will be able to mine 40 GH of SHA at the end of next week :grinning:
PS. all VB Batch 2 customers will get a 1:1 ratio of Hashlet Primes at the end of next week too :grinning:
Josh
September 20, 2014, 10:59:28 AM
I've deposited some BTC in ZEN. It's been in for longer than 24 hours. No hashpoints earned. Should I bother contacting GAW about this? I think I'll just put my funds somewhere else if I just want to gain some interest on them while they sit. I've heard bitfinex is good and reliable for that. What do you guys think?
You get more on Bitfinex, but only if you convert it to fiat. The BTC lending rate is terribly low.
I have a referral link in my sig that gives you 10% of fees (fees are 15% of profit) for a month.
Also, keep in mind that the amount of BTC being withdrawn in service fees is going to be higher since the price of Bitcoin is lower.
It's not you. Rates are creeping down for Zenpool, probably to emulate the performance of a real pool.
Hello all,
is it me or payment are decreasing ??
is it me or payment are decreasing ??
It's not you. Rates are creeping down for Zenpool, probably to emulate the performance of a real pool.
This is part of why I brought up GAW shorting BTC & even mining in general somewhere on page 10-20 on this thread.
This also brings to mind an additional weakness, or manipulable, aspect of GAW's payment scheme, which is again only a problem because of GAW's business model. By no means is GAW necessarily doing this, but it is an additional risk inherent to their non-mining business model.
1. GAW fees are deducted at seemingly random times within a 10-12 hour window on any given day. This would give GAW the ability to selectively choose to convert your BTC into USD at moments most favorable to them. Just a few cents each time, done 400,000+ times, would be enough income to to run a business. (.03 = $340,000/month)
2. GAW could seemingly preclude this possibility (and not require a customer's blind trust) by having a set time in which fees are assessed. Josh has made many statements to this effect, but has yet to actually adhere to his own published time to convert your BTC to their fiat fee.
3. However, even if they did set a standard time, then they merely open themselves up to external manipulation. If a whale had a significant investment in hashlets and the ability to do arithmetic, then they could artificially inflate the Coinbase price just prior to GAW pulling the exchange rate. A bot could easily do this.
4. GAW could also do this, though offering only the appearance of a fair fee assessment policy.
5. GAW could, instead of taking USD fees, take it in BTC. However, since they don't actually mine, this would likely be more work. They would also make a lot less profit in the event of BTC trending downward, which is all BTC has done for the last 8 months.
This brings me to GAW potentially taking a short position on mining:
1. My fee yesterday was 31.48% of my mining.
2. If BTC drops to $300, then that fee would be ~43%. That is a 72% increase in fees since GAW started hashlets (at 25%). If you peg your ROI to fiat, then between the relative fee increase and the BTC drop, you will never ROI.
3. GAW, however, would make just as much money, regardless of downward performance of BTC. GAW customers assume the risk of BTC downtrends, while GAW makes money.
September 20, 2014, 02:10:31 AM
The main problem is that costs are charged in USD and taken from the BTC amount. If you'd add fiat->btc at current prices to your account you'd be safe for a while for the costs.
This BTC dip today was so tempting that I bought some at 388. Knowing my luck it will probably crash through the floor tomorrow.
me too...got mine 1 whole BTC at $380.01 usd
i'm in BTC for the long haul have all the coin I ever mined or bought...so this will either
a ) end well
b) end badly
rocket up.....or nice crater in the ground
(good to have goals)
so anyway you are NOT alone (thou I suspect their are few of us)
September 20, 2014, 02:02:37 AM
The main problem is that costs are charged in USD and taken from the BTC amount. If you'd add fiat->btc at current prices to your account you'd be safe for a while for the costs.
This BTC dip today was so tempting that I bought some at 388. Knowing my luck it will probably crash through the floor tomorrow.
September 20, 2014, 01:46:41 AM
Oh, and they've changed the names of the pools. Plus payouts were within one minute yesterday. First all deductions, then all payouts.
September 20, 2014, 01:44:21 AM
The main problem is that costs are charged in USD and taken from the BTC amount. If you'd add fiat->btc at current prices to your account you'd be safe for a while for the costs.
September 19, 2014, 09:36:19 PM
BTC price crashing could mean losses for a lot of people involved.....
September 19, 2014, 08:15:50 PM
Hello all,
is it me or payment are decreasing ??
is it me or payment are decreasing ??
It is the btc price going down like crazy. That is the real problem.
September 19, 2014, 05:34:41 PM
My best guess is that ZEN is using blockchain.info to process withdrawals, because mine hasn't showed up in my wallet yet after hours. Still it shows in blockchain.info as unconfirmed. According to reddit blockchain.info is probably having syncing issues along with other functions of the website that seem partially broken in the website.
Edit: Here's a post about this issue
https://hashtalk.org/topic/7336/withdraw
Edit: Here's a post about this issue
https://hashtalk.org/topic/7336/withdraw
September 19, 2014, 04:56:17 PM
Payments going down and I am making a killing on some pools... It is funny that someone bought about 600 hashlets I think last week and has not received a payment yet and complained on their forum and guess what happened? HE WAS BANNED and HIS POST REMOVED. Nice forum and customer support they have going there. Also nice to mention my name as being part of the derailment suchmoon.... Please show me a post that was a derailment, lmfao...
September 19, 2014, 03:39:49 PM
Question: Do I get hashpoints for bitcoins deposited in zencloud?
Yes. ~0.03% per day if I remember correctly. 1 hashpoint is 0.01 USD.
4 BTC in the account gives you about 1200 HP a day and with every 16 days a 10 Gh/s Genesis Hashlet. Based on the current BTC rate of course.
When you'd sell directly you'd earn 2 x 8 USD a month by having 4 BTC there. If you keep the hashlets for a while you'll also rake in some BTC dust over the days.
You just gave me an idea, but I don't know if I want to deposit 20 btc
A better idea would be to deposit 100 million BTC. If my math is correct this would double the BTC network hashrate and would open certain interesting possibilities.
On a second thought, there might be some issues with this plan.
13,287,775
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