Germany League - Bundesliga Prediction Thread - page 227.

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Quote from: mamesso on August 14, 2024, 08:27:59 AM

Quote from: wmaurik on August 14, 2024, 06:13:44 AM

Quote from: $anounimus$ on August 13, 2024, 03:04:26 PM

~Snip~

I even thought that Alonso and Nuri Sahin would try to put their team at the top of the standings by not allowing Bayern Munich to occupy the first position in the Bundesliga this season. Because Kompany who will have great pressure and responsibility to bring Bayern Munich back to win the trophy this season will definitely be quite overwhelmed because now the competition in the Bundesliga has started to be different and is quite fierce. However, I also think that Kompany will try everything to be able to compete with the two big teams in the coming season.

Of course Kompany will be under pressure in his first season managing Bayern Munich, the direction will be seen from the results achieved by Bayern Munich after going through several matches since the season started. Bayern Munich will try to perform better after failing miserably last season, now Kompany main task is to be able to make Munich perform optimally and return to the top of the standings. It's not just Leverkusen and Dortmund who are Bayern Munich's rivals in the title race, Leipzig and Stuttgart need to be watched out for because they can provide a surprise with their unpredictable performances. The increasingly fierce competition in the Bundesliga makes Kompany's job increasingly difficult, but if he can get Bayern Munich performing even better, his chances of winning his first trophy as a coach are wide open.

You are right, the increasing competition on Bundesliga might make it very difficult to Kompany to win the league with his men but if he is a good coach and stay focus on his target, he can achieve it.

If Kompany has a good game tactics and understand how to overcome the challenges on the pitch when his men is on pressure, definitely, he will be able to bring home the title and I will applaud him for that. But if it is the opposite, then winning the title will only be a dream for him and the fans until he improve the team to be very strong and fearless.

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Quote from: Josefjix on August 12, 2024, 03:04:34 PM

Quote from: slapper on August 12, 2024, 05:19:05 AM

Leverkusen seems to have some buzz; I understand this. Though last season was strong, that does not ensure a dang thing this time around. Teams change; strategies change; Leverkusen's going to have to stay up. Bayern is looking for blood since they have a new coach. Last season's debacle won't be allowed to recur. Not least of all let us not overlook Dortmund. Should they organize their affairs, they can quickly disrupt the Leverkusen-Bayern party

Calling any winners here is far too early. That's the game's brilliance; anything may happen in it

It's going to be a long run for the Bavarians, but not to worry because the Champions will always come out to be the very best. Borrusia Dortmund and Bayern Munich are the preeminent rivals for Bayer Leverkusen. The Bundesliga title becomes very competitive and running for the elite league. Bayer Leverkusen have incredible odds to meet next season, they have to fight their way through the economical paths and hitting the top targets.

The competition in the Bundesliga used to be between Bayer Munich and Dortmund, but last season a tougher opponent joined the two teams. Leverkusen performed brilliantly last season and secured the title by going undefeated and they have shown that they will compete this hard next season and take the title away from the big teams including Bayern Munich. Bayan Munich's team was strong last season but they couldn't keep up with this team only because Bayan Munich dropped some points early on while Leverkusen didn't drop any points. Bayan Munich have been alerted by Leverkusen's performance last season so they will play very seriously from the first match and try to get full points.

The addition of a new opponent means better performance for each team in the coming seasons. Next season we will see tough competition in the Bundesliga.

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Quote from: Lafu on August 14, 2024, 11:10:16 AM

Quote from: Luzin on August 14, 2024, 01:42:21 AM

Beier at Dortmund is indeed a good step and it is an improvement. I don't know for sure if Dortmund is doing business or if they are indeed aiming for the championship next season. But indeed Dortmund is always good at bringing in young players then they are made better and sell more expensive.

For sure for getting Beier to Dortmund is an big improvement for both the player and Dortmund with his talent.
With all that very nice and good transfers that Dortmund has done this year and for the coming season it would be a shame for not aiming for the championship.
Even they have made a lot of good young players very good and got them sold for good money at some stage there will come the time for getting a title.
Fingers crossed maybe they can make it this time.

The loss of FullKrug who moved to Westham some time ago forced Dortmund to move quickly to find a replacement, especially now that Guirassy is still injured so with the new season will starting in a few days, Dortmund immediately brought in Maximilian Beier as their mainstay center forward next season, to be honest, although dortmund have often lost their main stars but this is what I like most about them, because it doesn't take long time for their to find other talented young players, Maximilian Beier appeared very impressive with Hoffenheim and he even became Hoffenheim top scorer and best player in last season.

In my opinion, the arrival of Maximilian Beier will clearly make Dortmund attack line quite sharp, especially now that they have two strikers who were quite productive last season at their respective clubs, apart from maintaining Dortmund opportunity to compete in the Bundesliga next season, of course it cannot be denied that recruiting Maximilian Beier It is also good business for Dortmund at the moment because with his young age and being bought for 30 million euros, of course it will not be difficult for Dortmund to sell him 3 times more expensively in the future when they succeed in molding him into a great striker.

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Quote from: Luzin on August 14, 2024, 01:42:21 AM

Beier at Dortmund is indeed a good step and it is an improvement. I don't know for sure if Dortmund is doing business or if they are indeed aiming for the championship next season. But indeed Dortmund is always good at bringing in young players then they are made better and sell more expensive.

For sure for getting Beier to Dortmund is an big improvement for both the player and Dortmund with his talent.
With all that very nice and good transfers that Dortmund has done this year and for the coming season it would be a shame for not aiming for the championship.
Even they have made a lot of good young players very good and got them sold for good money at some stage there will come the time for getting a title.
Fingers crossed maybe they can make it this time.

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Quote from: Dailyscript on August 13, 2024, 04:29:57 PM

Quote from: alastantiger on August 13, 2024, 01:41:00 PM

Didn't Kane just played a match at Tottenham stadium that he won a friendly match, if he can play that match after returning from a disappointing Euros tournament, he should have strength to train with the squad because this season coming is going to be a tough one for Bayern Munich because of their new coach hence he should be with the team training. Bayern Munich didn't need a new striker because there isn't many available that is better than Harry kane and he's still available for them. If Vincent Kompany use Harry Kane well, he can use him to win more than one trophy and the league title will be among because he's a top striker and there's a good team behind him to help him when he needs them. I don't think Bayern Munich should buy anymore players, because if they bring in too many talents and it makes it difficult for the young coach to choose because of the too many options available.

He wasn't among the players that start the match but when he came in they were already winning the match but he was rated than some who start the match having two short on post. Actually in my opinion Harry Kane is not fit and suitable or strong to start the league with a good confidence as a striker due to his lost and poor performance from them (ENGLAND) in the EUROS. he need more time to suit into Vincent Kompany mode of playing in his game. Actually Harry Kane as a world class player had never won any trophy in his career, he should be thinking on how to win the trophy this season and which everybody will be excited and happy for him if he will do it. but why we they need on having a new striker when they have Kane already to play. Vincent will actually use him when he have gotten use to him because harry Kane is not a player that you will and easily his tactics of how he plays the ball, which will be difficult for Vincent.

Look what MATTHAUS said about Kane

Actually, I do not understand why everyone is pointing fingers or doubting about Harry Kane! He is definitely a great player and at the same time he has done exceptionally well for his club Bayern Munich in the previous season as well. Hell, I think he was the only reason why Bayern Munich was even able to finish in the third position. Otherwise, it could have been pretty bad for them. For some reason, everyone still doubting the capability of Harry Kane, not anyone else. People need to understand that it was not his fault. He did all he could for his club, but the chemistry between the players was probably not that good, and also the tactics applied by Thomas Tuchel were not good at all as well.

Maybe with Vincent Kompany, the tactics are going to be different and the players will also be able to have better chemistry and understand the tactics as well as apply it more effectively.

Source: Goal.com

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Quote from: pusaka on August 14, 2024, 09:45:19 AM

Quote from: rendravolt on August 14, 2024, 09:21:45 AM

Before playing in the Bundesliga, these two teams will first compete for the DFL Supercup trophy which will be presented this weekend. Who do you think will win? Of course most will choose Leverkusen, especially since they have not wavered at all. We can also see that Stuttgart this season will not be strengthened by Guirassy so they do not have a dangerous goal machine like last season.

Leverkusen is certainly still confident in being able to win their first title this season after becoming Bundesliga champions with an unbeaten record and this title will be Xabi Alonso's third collection if he can win it for Leverkusen. But overall this will probably still be a difficult match to predict and I think Stuttgart knows that they have to stop Leverkusen as a warning if they can still be counted on for next season.

If you look at the Bundesliga standings last season, this match should be interesting, but the problem is that the current situation is a little different from last season where they also have new players and old players who have left, so inevitably it will definitely affect, especially this is their first serious match after they did the pre-season match. Leverkusen is the main favorite, that's what I think too. But I will not rule out the possibility that Stuttgart can provide a surprise. It could be that what happened in the Europa League last season will be repeated in this Super Cup final, where Leverkusen was very superior and very favored, but they were the ones who lost to Atalanta. This will be an opener for us to see the competition in the new season.

Even a few years ago we considered Stuttgart a weak team. But this group cannot be considered weak at the moment. Last season Stuttgart's players performed well and managed to occupy the second place in the table. Qualifying for the Bundesliga was a big challenge for Stuttgart even a few years ago. But this team has consistently performed well in every match in the last season. If the defense was a little stronger, we could have seen more great performances from this team.

The Leverkusen team was unbeaten in the Bundesliga last season. The team has only been defeated in the final of the Europa League. Leverkusen had the best season in history without a doubt. Leverkusen coach Xabi Alonso will want to maintain consistency this season as well.

Both Leverkusen and Stuttgart will be targeting wins in the Supercup final. And these two teams are quite strong this season too. In the friendly match, we saw a well-rounded performance from both the teams. So it is a bit difficult to make predictions about this match. But I would probably bet Leverkusen to win.

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Quote from: rendravolt on August 14, 2024, 09:21:45 AM

Before playing in the Bundesliga, these two teams will first compete for the DFL Supercup trophy which will be presented this weekend. Who do you think will win? Of course most will choose Leverkusen, especially since they have not wavered at all. We can also see that Stuttgart this season will not be strengthened by Guirassy so they do not have a dangerous goal machine like last season.

Leverkusen is certainly still confident in being able to win their first title this season after becoming Bundesliga champions with an unbeaten record and this title will be Xabi Alonso's third collection if he can win it for Leverkusen. But overall this will probably still be a difficult match to predict and I think Stuttgart knows that they have to stop Leverkusen as a warning if they can still be counted on for next season.

If you look at the Bundesliga standings last season, this match should be interesting, but the problem is that the current situation is a little different from last season where they also have new players and old players who have left, so inevitably it will definitely affect, especially this is their first serious match after they did the pre-season match. Leverkusen is the main favorite, that's what I think too. But I will not rule out the possibility that Stuttgart can provide a surprise. It could be that what happened in the Europa League last season will be repeated in this Super Cup final, where Leverkusen was very superior and very favored, but they were the ones who lost to Atalanta. This will be an opener for us to see the competition in the new season.

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Before playing in the Bundesliga, these two teams will first compete for the DFL Supercup trophy which will be presented this weekend. Who do you think will win? Of course most will choose Leverkusen, especially since they have not wavered at all. We can also see that Stuttgart this season will not be strengthened by Guirassy so they do not have a dangerous goal machine like last season.

Leverkusen is certainly still confident in being able to win their first title this season after becoming Bundesliga champions with an unbeaten record and this title will be Xabi Alonso's third collection if he can win it for Leverkusen. But overall this will probably still be a difficult match to predict and I think Stuttgart knows that they have to stop Leverkusen as a warning if they can still be counted on for next season.

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2022/2023

2023/2024

This is what many people do not pay attention to regarding Bayern Munich's performance last season. If we compare the statistical records they created last season and the season before, actually their statistics are not much different, even in terms of the points they collected last season were better than the previous season when they still managed to defend the title. I know there will be people who say that it can't be compared, because in the previous 2 seasons they were able to collect even higher points.
But what I want to say here is that they did not decline much, but their competitors were able to improve very significantly. Does anyone imagine that Leverkusen will perform as well as last season? I don't think so. Likewise with Stuttgart, are they a team that is in our calculations? I don't think so. So their job is to improve their performance so that they can improve significantly, because they are now really under threat.

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Quote from: wmaurik on August 14, 2024, 06:13:44 AM

Quote from: $anounimus$ on August 13, 2024, 03:04:26 PM

~Snip~

I even thought that Alonso and Nuri Sahin would try to put their team at the top of the standings by not allowing Bayern Munich to occupy the first position in the Bundesliga this season. Because Kompany who will have great pressure and responsibility to bring Bayern Munich back to win the trophy this season will definitely be quite overwhelmed because now the competition in the Bundesliga has started to be different and is quite fierce. However, I also think that Kompany will try everything to be able to compete with the two big teams in the coming season.

Of course Kompany will be under pressure in his first season managing Bayern Munich, the direction will be seen from the results achieved by Bayern Munich after going through several matches since the season started. Bayern Munich will try to perform better after failing miserably last season, now Kompany main task is to be able to make Munich perform optimally and return to the top of the standings. It's not just Leverkusen and Dortmund who are Bayern Munich's rivals in the title race, Leipzig and Stuttgart need to be watched out for because they can provide a surprise with their unpredictable performances. The increasingly fierce competition in the Bundesliga makes Kompany's job increasingly difficult, but if he can get Bayern Munich performing even better, his chances of winning his first trophy as a coach are wide open.

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Quote from: barisbilgili on August 14, 2024, 05:18:55 AM

Quote from: Velvet78 on August 14, 2024, 04:47:24 AM

Yeah Kane won a friendly cup but didn't want to lift the trophy because of winning it against his old team, Tottenham. It is so unreal you know. He really has big problems with luck. Tongue

I would have liked to see him celebrating his first trophy in his career honestly. Anyways, I hope real trophies aren't far away from him from now on.

I don't think Bayern Munich needs to sign more players. I mean only replacements for de Ligt - Mazraoui duo could be found. Other than that I find their squad really complete. It is all about how Kompany will manage at this point.

Regardless of all that, I think this first trophy will be quite influential for Kane to improve his mentality in the future and also eliminate the feeling that he was unlucky to win the trophy.
And I think Kane's attitude is quite reasonable, it is a form of him to respect his previous team.

Overall, if we look at the Bayern squad now, it is quite capable in all lines, but it all comes back to their new coach Kompany to choose players who fit his criteria.

Atleast Kane will have piece of mind that it not a curse on him for not having trophy since his career, am very happy for him for have is first trophy against his formal club, and I also applause for showing good behaviour against Tottenham which he felt bad for not doing that for them and now against them it very sad for him.

Bayern Munich are quite okay in every position and as you said the rest depends on the Kompany choice of selection, but I see signs of strong teams under Kompany as coach, all pre-season matches played were very excellent in their performance with this I see sign of great achievement in the squad.

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Quote from: $anounimus$ on August 13, 2024, 03:04:26 PM

I have almost the same view as you but Bayern Munich does not deserve to be eliminated from the competition because they also have the capacity even though the chances are small because the team is handled by Kompany. Alonso and Nuri Sahin will definitely apply the philosophy that is there to dominate the Bundesliga, while Alonso is on top because he has been able to prove his capacity last season. It's just that the challenges this season will be different and it seems difficult for Alonso to be able to maintain his record like last season.

I even thought that Alonso and Nuri Sahin would try to put their team at the top of the standings by not allowing Bayern Munich to occupy the first position in the Bundesliga this season. Because Kompany who will have great pressure and responsibility to bring Bayern Munich back to win the trophy this season will definitely be quite overwhelmed because now the competition in the Bundesliga has started to be different and is quite fierce. However, I also think that Kompany will try everything to be able to compete with the two big teams in the coming season.

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Quote from: Velvet78 on August 14, 2024, 04:47:24 AM

Yeah Kane won a friendly cup but didn't want to lift the trophy because of winning it against his old team, Tottenham. It is so unreal you know. He really has big problems with luck. Tongue

I would have liked to see him celebrating his first trophy in his career honestly. Anyways, I hope real trophies aren't far away from him from now on.

I don't think Bayern Munich needs to sign more players. I mean only replacements for de Ligt - Mazraoui duo could be found. Other than that I find their squad really complete. It is all about how Kompany will manage at this point.

Regardless of all that, I think this first trophy will be quite influential for Kane to improve his mentality in the future and also eliminate the feeling that he was unlucky to win the trophy.
And I think Kane's attitude is quite reasonable, it is a form of him to respect his previous team.

Overall, if we look at the Bayern squad now, it is quite capable in all lines, but it all comes back to their new coach Kompany to choose players who fit his criteria.

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Quote from: alastantiger on August 13, 2024, 01:41:00 PM

Didn't Kane just played a match at Tottenham stadium that he won a friendly match, if he can play that match after returning from a disappointing Euros tournament, he should have strength to train with the squad because this season coming is going to be a tough one for Bayern Munich because of their new coach hence he should be with the team training. Bayern Munich didn't need a new striker because there isn't many available that is better than Harry kane and he's still available for them. If Vincent Kompany use Harry Kane well, he can use him to win more than one trophy and the league title will be among because he's a top striker and there's a good team behind him to help him when he needs them. I don't think Bayern Munich should buy anymore players, because if they bring in too many talents and it makes it difficult for the young coach to choose because of the too many options available.

Yeah Kane won a friendly cup but didn't want to lift the trophy because of winning it against his old team, Tottenham. It is so unreal you know. He really has big problems with luck. Tongue

I would have liked to see him celebrating his first trophy in his career honestly. Anyways, I hope real trophies aren't far away from him from now on.

I don't think Bayern Munich needs to sign more players. I mean only replacements for de Ligt - Mazraoui duo could be found. Other than that I find their squad really complete. It is all about how Kompany will manage at this point.

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Quote from: Lafu on August 13, 2024, 09:11:42 AM

Yes he has for sure some awesome stats for the last season and years for his age of 21.
I guess he wanted to make the next step to grow and also wanted to play on a higher Level by moving to Dortmund even there are a lot of other good players.

I don't remember exactly when and what age Haaland went to Man City. But Haaland at Man City received tremendous support so he was able to perform well. Man City's players have good control that helps Haaland perform well. Meanwhile, Beier at Dortmund is indeed a good step and it is an improvement. I don't know for sure if Dortmund is doing business or if they are indeed aiming for the championship next season. But indeed Dortmund is always good at bringing in young players then they are made better and sell more expensive.

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Quote from: Josefjix on August 13, 2024, 04:00:33 PM

Bundesliga is entertaining and also consider competitive because there's presence of Xabi Alonso, one of the cruel manager that's always sick to wanting the very best performance, he single-handedly grab all the accolades from other managers previous season. Bayern Munich, Bayer Leverkusen and Borrusia Dortmund are the faces of Bundesliga. These clubs represents Germany in the UEFA Champions League, they're tough and exert substantial amazing performance and statistics.

The three teams will also continue to color next season at the top of the standings because all three still have much better strength than the others in Bundesliga. But I don't know who will last longer in the Champions League this season because the new format can also cause more fatigue on the players' side so that coaches who are able to manage their players very well can be a threat to other rivals in the competition. In addition, Munich and Leverkusen will still continue to compete like last season in the coming season, as well as Borussia Dortmund who may perform better than the previous season in the Bundesliga later.

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Quote from: X-ray on August 12, 2024, 12:40:29 PM

That's true. I have heard some stuff about him, and people were also calling him Haaland in the making. He's 1.85m and super fast, and also, he's very versatile in the offense. 30 million looks so bargain if we compare him to the other striker. I still consider 30 million quite cheap to get a potential talent like him.
Borussia Dortmund is very smart to trade the 31-year-old Füllkrug for the 21-year-old Beier. It's incredible to see the way Dortmund is regenerating its players. Beier could potentially be the next Haaland, and they can sell him for 90m at least

Dortmund will make him hone his skills so that he can be like the strikers who have been honed by the club before Erling Haaland and Robert Lewandowski, after that Dortmund can sell him to a top club.
Dortmund has always been an intermediary for players who have potential so that they can become star players. Dortmund is also very good at negotiating to get quality players at low prices, especially since he is still very young, so the player can be used as a long-term investment. He signed a 5-year contract and has enough time to show his talent more.

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Quote from: Josefjix on August 13, 2024, 04:00:33 PM

Bundesliga is entertaining and also consider competitive because there's presence of Xabi Alonso, one of the cruel manager that's always sick to wanting the very best performance, he single-handedly grab all the accolades from other managers previous season. Bayern Munich, Bayer Leverkusen and Borrusia Dortmund are the faces of Bundesliga. These clubs represents Germany in the UEFA Champions League, they're tough and exert substantial amazing performance and statistics.

The last time a club from the Bundesliga won the Champions League was in 2020 when Bayern Munich defeated PSG 1-0 in Lisbon. They came close last season but Borussia Dortmund failed to win the trophy. The league can not boast of the best coaches in Europe currently based on experience. Xabi Alonso had a good season last year but he still has to be consistent this season to show that his achievement was not mainly a product of luck.

The surprise departure of Edin Terzić might be a major challenge for Borussia Dortmund. His replacement Nuri Şahin only first-team coaching experience with Turkey's Antalyaspor might not be enough to lead a big team like Dortmund. Maybe the few months he worked under Terzić might help him. Vincent Kompany was the biggest surprise in the German League coaching transfer story. After leading a club that was relegated, Bayern Munich feels he is most qualified for the managerial job. For the Bundesliga will be interesting because there might be many surprises.

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Quote from: Josefjix on August 13, 2024, 04:00:33 PM

Quote from: $anounimus$ on August 13, 2024, 03:04:26 PM

I have almost the same view as you but Bayern Munich does not deserve to be eliminated from the competition because they also have the capacity even though the chances are small because the team is handled by Kompany. Alonso and Nuri Sahin will definitely apply the philosophy that is there to dominate the Bundesliga, while Alonso is on top because he has been able to prove his capacity last season. It's just that the challenges this season will be different and it seems difficult for Alonso to be able to maintain his record like last season.

Bundesliga is entertaining and also consider competitive because there's presence of Xabi Alonso, one of the cruel manager that's always sick to wanting the very best performance, he single-handedly grab all the accolades from other managers previous season. Bayern Munich, Bayer Leverkusen and Borrusia Dortmund are the faces of Bundesliga. These clubs represents Germany in the UEFA Champions League, they're tough and exert substantial amazing performance and statistics.

Last season no one could doubt Leverkusen and Xabi after their success in winning the Bundesliga even though at the beginning of the season they did not really get the confidence from many people to be able to surpass Bayern Munich or even win the Bundesliga.
But now Leverkusen and Xabi are very much believed by everyone to be able to defend the title and be able to make the competition in the Bundesliga presented again in an interesting way like last season.
In fact, they are also considered to be team that can appear impressively for the UCL competition, although it has not been really confirmed for sure but at least they are likely to be able to make all this happen.

It just that for Dortmund I not so sure, indeed they managed to bring in some pretty great players this summer but that does not guarantee that in the first season these players can appear impressively with Dortmund.

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Quote from: Hvdv on August 13, 2024, 12:51:49 PM

Quote from: Josefjix on August 12, 2024, 03:04:34 PM

Quote from: slapper on August 12, 2024, 05:19:05 AM

Leverkusen seems to have some buzz; I understand this. Though last season was strong, that does not ensure a dang thing this time around. Teams change; strategies change; Leverkusen's going to have to stay up. Bayern is looking for blood since they have a new coach. Last season's debacle won't be allowed to recur. Not least of all let us not overlook Dortmund. Should they organize their affairs, they can quickly disrupt the Leverkusen-Bayern party

Calling any winners here is far too early. That's the game's brilliance; anything may happen in it

It's going to be a long run for the Bavarians, but not to worry because the Champions will always come out to be the very best. Borrusia Dortmund and Bayern Munich are the preeminent rivals for Bayer Leverkusen. The Bundesliga title becomes very competitive and running for the elite league. Bayer Leverkusen have incredible odds to meet next season, they have to fight their way through the economical paths and hitting the top targets.

We can say that they kept the basic squad from last year. They made transfers and most importantly, Xabi is still in that team. We saw some negative results in the preparation matches but since these were not official matches, they were not very important scores. We can even say that it was good for Xabi to see the deficiencies in the team. It is obvious that they are one of the important and strong teams in the league and other tournaments.

Xabi Alonso have make Bundesliga more interesting by changing the interface of everything, before Bayern Munich are been called all the time and runners up are always Borrusia Dortmund but Xabi Alonso make a good change in the league, currently many are Still doubting if bayern Munich can gain access to the title this time around, because Bayer Leverkusen really shock everyone by making a sudden appearance from nowhere to claims the title living behind bayern Munich and Borrusia Dortmund that are usually topping the table, with their past game (pre-seasons) it's a double advantage for Xabi Alonso to realise some of the mistakes and also finding solutions to that problem before the main games start.

Topic: Germany League - Bundesliga Prediction Thread - page 227. (Read 651812 times)