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Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol] - page 3. (Read 15271 times)

legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
August 24, 2015, 10:12:46 AM
The scaling debate is an open question, but it's now settled that XT is not the answer:

Doing nothing is worse.

Lol no.

Or is it based on the same bs that you extrapolated to get your 500k$ bitcoin?

On piece of advice, when you do not qualify, you STFU.


You seem scared. Just relax, let it happen.

it wont happen, not even considering all the noobish fud you guys seems to bite on.

and then please feel free to gtfo of bitcoin.

He's right you know.  Relax!  Who knows, you might learn to enjoy it.


zomg the "he is right" noobs that cant think for themselves are out..



gimme a break
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
August 24, 2015, 09:55:39 AM
The scaling debate is an open question, but it's now settled that XT is not the answer:

Doing nothing is worse.

Lol no.

Or is it based on the same bs that you extrapolated to get your 500k$ bitcoin?

On piece of advice, when you do not qualify, you STFU.


You seem scared. Just relax, let it happen.

it wont happen, not even considering all the noobish fud you guys seems to bite on.

and then please feel free to gtfo of bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
August 24, 2015, 09:54:08 AM
The scaling debate is an open question, but it's now settled that XT is not the answer:

Doing nothing is worse.

Lol no.

Or is it based on the same bs that you extrapolated to get your 500k$ bitcoin?

On piece of advice, when you do not qualify, you STFU.


You seem scared. Just relax, let it happen.
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1000
August 24, 2015, 08:02:58 AM
Where do you see you that bitcoin is UP? I see the price of bitcoin at one of the lowest in the last months? Or you meaning the price in the months or years to come?
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
August 24, 2015, 07:58:29 AM
The scaling debate is an open question, but it's now settled that XT is not the answer:

Doing nothing is worse.

Lol no.

Or is it based on the same bs that you extrapolated to get your 500k$ bitcoin?

On piece of advice, when you do not qualify, you STFU.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
August 24, 2015, 06:23:04 AM
The scaling debate is an open question, but it's now settled that XT is not the answer:

Doing nothing is worse.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
August 24, 2015, 04:50:28 AM
The scaling debate is an open question, but it's now settled that XT is not the answer:

https://forum.blockstack.org/t/blockstack-community-thoughts-on-block-size-bitcoin-xt-debate/152

Quote
My general opinion on the matter is "data or STFU." The motivation for this debate is to help Bitcoin scale up in both the transaction rate and transaction volume. Will making the blocks bigger actually address this in a consequence-free manner, or will it just push the problem down the road, and result in more blockchain bloat and fewer full nodes along the way? I don't know--as far as I know, there's no empirical data on how well an XT network performs compared to a Bitcoin network under similar conditions. Until I see data, I'm calling BS.

Part of the reason I'm skeptical is because distributed systems typically scale by growing sub-linearly with the scaling parameter. For example, DHT nodes do not store every single piece of data, or even routes to every single node; they each store O(k/n) data and O(log k) routes for n nodes and k records. As another example, Internet routers do not store routes to every single publicly-routable host; they assign route prefixes to their neighboring routers, and send packets along the interface with the longest IP prefix match (leading to O(log n) expected number of routing hops for n hosts, and O(1) memory per router).

This does not appear to be the case with Bitcoin XT. Bitcoin XT's might be able to do better than Bitcoin by a constant factor. But, the XT approach is like trying to scale a small computer network by buying a bigger switch and making everyone's ARP table bigger. The system might bear a little bit more load for a proportional resource investment (and probably with unintended consequences), but it won't solve the underlying scalability limitation (feature?) that everyone still needs to mine the same blocks, no matter how big they get or how often they are added.

So, I need to see some extraordinary results from the XT proposal before I believe that it solves the scalability problem, especially if the proposed solution is to do better by a constant factor.

People dont keep their money in DHT's, so they can be scaled for performance with little or no regard to security or immutability. Bitcoin has to prevent double spending and enforce immutability in a trust-less way, so is not necessarily free to simply pick the most efficient method.

The scaling debate is certainly not over. But you are only partially right:  bitcoinXT is not the ONLY answer. But its the closest one to ring fencing bitcoins core foundation as a peer-to-peer trust-less network.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
August 24, 2015, 04:43:04 AM
Quote
My original Bitcoin is essentially held in escrow

Thought as much. You are handing over your bitcoin to a 3rd party, and you rely on trust to get it back, like any escrow service.

And dont give me "enforced with software" because it will be enforced by whoever has the majority in a 2-of-3 multisig.

Read my post above. Then read the sidechains white paper. Then come back here when you actually understand how this stuff works

Miss me with your "arguments to ignorance" until then.


A what now?

Quote from: Argument_from _ignorance
The assumption of a conclusion or fact based primarily on lack of evidence to the contrary.  Usually best described by, “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”

You said it behaves like escrow.

And what I said was, it is placing it into a 3rd party that you need to trust. There is no lack of evidence on this, surely? 

Quote from: Escrow
place in custody or trust of 3rd party until a specified condition has been fulfilled.

What this is doing is changing Satoshis view of bit coin from a "peer-to-peer payment network" to something different. Its so fundamental to what bitcoin is, I frankly dont understand why we are even arguing about it. First line of the white paper makes it pretty clear:

Quote from: Satoshi
A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online
payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a
financial institution

Note the use of the word "Purely". Also note that he also foresaw the possibility of 3rd parties getting involved, and expressly mentioned their exclusion in the opening gambit.

But if you still aren't convinced, try reading a bit further into his white paper. Like to the next line

Quote from: Satoshi
Digital signatures provide part of the solution, but the main
benefits are lost if a trusted third party is still required to prevent double-spending

So, where is your argument to ignorance?   The only ignorance I see is your own refusal to accept that side chains introduce 'trusted' 3rd parties into what was conceived to be a trust-less peer to peer network.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
August 23, 2015, 11:49:28 PM
The scaling debate is an open question, but it's now settled that XT is not the answer:

https://forum.blockstack.org/t/blockstack-community-thoughts-on-block-size-bitcoin-xt-debate/152

Quote
My general opinion on the matter is "data or STFU." The motivation for this debate is to help Bitcoin scale up in both the transaction rate and transaction volume. Will making the blocks bigger actually address this in a consequence-free manner, or will it just push the problem down the road, and result in more blockchain bloat and fewer full nodes along the way? I don't know--as far as I know, there's no empirical data on how well an XT network performs compared to a Bitcoin network under similar conditions. Until I see data, I'm calling BS.

Part of the reason I'm skeptical is because distributed systems typically scale by growing sub-linearly with the scaling parameter. For example, DHT nodes do not store every single piece of data, or even routes to every single node; they each store O(k/n) data and O(log k) routes for n nodes and k records. As another example, Internet routers do not store routes to every single publicly-routable host; they assign route prefixes to their neighboring routers, and send packets along the interface with the longest IP prefix match (leading to O(log n) expected number of routing hops for n hosts, and O(1) memory per router).

This does not appear to be the case with Bitcoin XT. Bitcoin XT's might be able to do better than Bitcoin by a constant factor. But, the XT approach is like trying to scale a small computer network by buying a bigger switch and making everyone's ARP table bigger. The system might bear a little bit more load for a proportional resource investment (and probably with unintended consequences), but it won't solve the underlying scalability limitation (feature?) that everyone still needs to mine the same blocks, no matter how big they get or how often they are added.

So, I need to see some extraordinary results from the XT proposal before I believe that it solves the scalability problem, especially if the proposed solution is to do better by a constant factor.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
August 23, 2015, 09:28:15 PM
I've read it a dozen times already so, no, I know how this stuff works.

http://www.blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf

You will notice that there is not ONE mention of Bitcoin or transaction capacity scaling inside.




 Cheesy

I'll admit I was wrong. How'd I miss this  Huh

Anyway the point still stand and I think it is fair to say no one ever proposed sidechains would allow us to support a significant increase in transaction. In the quote from Hill referred above "scale" was used pretty liberally and it is clear his more important message was "faster transaction processing".

From the same article:

Quote
Gregory Maxwell, who first proposed two-way pegging, says that it could provide some relief for bitcoin, though:

"I don't think this will remove the need to increase bitcoin's throughput entirely, but if the technology matures fast enough it may allow for a more conservative approach that increases size only when its very clearly safe to do so."
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
August 23, 2015, 08:57:27 PM
I've read it a dozen times already so, no, I know how this stuff works.

http://www.blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf

You will notice that there is not ONE mention of Bitcoin or transaction capacity scaling inside.


hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
August 23, 2015, 08:48:26 PM

I'm increasingly convinced you are another one of Lambchamp sock puppet account.

I'm therefore not going to waste my time looking for the dozens of reference by Blockstream developers essentially saying that sidechains can hardly scale the transaction processing power of Bitcoin under current block size.

I quoted myself because the content remains valid: SPV Proofs are competing with transactions for space in blocks. Unless the blocksize increase or they become able to reduce the size of these proofs, the scale of side chains might remain limited.


I think that you're frustrated because your understanding ( or at least hopes) around blockstream are flawed.

Since when do the views of employees trump the vision and mission of the boss?

Your last statement tells me you are foundering and speed reading the white paper for a soundbite that might give the impression that you have a deeper understanding than you do.

And finally:

Quote from: brg444
Unless the blocksize increase or they become able to reduce the size of these proofs, the scale of side chains might remain limited.

Maybe they should try bitcoinXT?

Or maybe you ought to read the white paper at least a couple of times instead of pulling things out your ass? I've read it a dozen times already so, no, I know how this stuff works.

http://www.blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf

You will notice that there is not ONE mention of Bitcoin or transaction capacity scaling inside.


Miss me with your "arguments to ignorance" until then.

hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
August 23, 2015, 08:45:17 PM

I'm increasingly convinced you are another one of Lambchamp sock puppet account.

I'm therefore not going to waste my time looking for the dozens of reference by Blockstream developers essentially saying that sidechains can hardly scale the transaction processing power of Bitcoin under current block size.

I quoted myself because the content remains valid: SPV Proofs are competing with transactions for space in blocks. Unless the blocksize increase or they become able to reduce the size of these proofs, the scale of side chains might remain limited.


I think that you're frustrated because your understanding ( or at least hopes) around blockstream are flawed.

Since when do the views of employees trump the vision and mission of the boss?

Your last statement tells me you are foundering and speed reading the white paper for a soundbite that might give the impression that you have a deeper understanding than you do.

And finally:

Quote from: brg444
Unless the blocksize increase or they become able to reduce the size of these proofs, the scale of side chains might remain limited.

Maybe they should try bitcoinXT?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
August 23, 2015, 08:43:02 PM
Quote
My original Bitcoin is essentially held in escrow

Thought as much. You are handing over your bitcoin to a 3rd party, and you rely on trust to get it back, like any escrow service.

And dont give me "enforced with software" because it will be enforced by whoever has the majority in a 2-of-3 multisig.

Read my post above. Then read the sidechains white paper. Then come back here when you actually understand how this stuff works

Miss me with your "arguments to ignorance" until then.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
August 23, 2015, 08:36:23 PM
Quote
My original Bitcoin is essentially held in escrow

Thought as much. You are handing over your bitcoin to a 3rd party, and you rely on trust to get it back, like any escrow service.

And dont give me "enforced with software" because it will be enforced by whoever has the majority in a 2-of-3 multisig.


hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
August 23, 2015, 08:35:09 PM

I use it weekly to pay php freelancers I hire in India. I also have 3 clients whom I invoice in bitcoin.  Works fine for me, as I'm sure it does for others.

I use Bitcoin for real transactions with some value behind them.  Sounds like a PissAntCoin sidechain would be right up your alley.


But anyway, get back to my points above.  How do investors handle the coins to be pegged? I thought that only the holder of the private key has any claim on a bitcoin. They will need to hand them over, no?

Again, you really need to brush up on some of the 'elements' technology that the Blockstream guys are working on.  When you hear terms such as 'timelocks' and multi-party signatures perhaps they will start to mean more to you.  Probably not though...you may simply not have what it takes to conceptualize some of the non-trivial use methods that others have moved on to.



Annnndddd.... you still haven't answered the question. If you wanna play the sidechain game, hand over your bitcoins.  Simple.

All these things are features that either do not work or do not exist now - and implementing them will further increase the size of a transaction. Looks like you are curing blockchain bloat with.... blockchain bloat.  

Read my post above. Then read the sidechains white paper. Then come back here when you actually understand how this stuff works
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
August 23, 2015, 08:28:12 PM

I use it weekly to pay php freelancers I hire in India. I also have 3 clients whom I invoice in bitcoin.  Works fine for me, as I'm sure it does for others.

I use Bitcoin for real transactions with some value behind them.  Sounds like a PissAntCoin sidechain would be right up your alley.


But anyway, get back to my points above.  How do investors handle the coins to be pegged? I thought that only the holder of the private key has any claim on a bitcoin. They will need to hand them over, no?

Again, you really need to brush up on some of the 'elements' technology that the Blockstream guys are working on.  When you hear terms such as 'timelocks' and multi-party signatures perhaps they will start to mean more to you.  Probably not though...you may simply not have what it takes to conceptualize some of the non-trivial use methods that others have moved on to.



Annnndddd.... you still haven't answered the question. If you wanna play the sidechain game, hand over your bitcoins.  Simple.

All these things are features that either do not work or do not exist now - and implementing them will further increase the size of a transaction. Looks like you are curing blockchain bloat with.... blockchain bloat.  

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
August 23, 2015, 08:22:04 PM
I find it strange that blockstream hold up Visa as the holy grail in terms of transaction throughput and the need for Bitcoin to adopt sidechains so they can reach these levels.

 Cheesy

So many lines or worthless FUD and yet still not one fucking clue about what sidechains are about.

So sidechains are not about facilitating a greater number of transactions? Do explain. You sound like you are getting frustrated.

I have not performed a bitcoin transaction in over a year.  It is not an appropriate solution for any transaction I've wanted to perform over that time period.  I pay a .01 BTC transaction fee when I do because it was about right for the service I was getting.

I very much look forward to being able to do minor transactions in such a way that will not compromise the core Bitcoin solution.  As soon as a micro-tipping sidechain comes out, I will peg some BTC to it and transact frequently.  In this way, one on-chain transaction will represent thousands of real-life transactions.  As a side benefit, one will not be able to analyze my behavior just by reading the Bitcoin blockchain.


I use it weekly to pay php freelancers I hire in India. I also have 3 clients whom I invoice in bitcoin.  Works fine for me, as I'm sure it does for others.

Your tipping example means that I cannot tip in Bitcoin anymore, I can only tip in the shitcoin that supports the sidechain its run on.

But anyway, get back to my points above.  How do investors handle the coins to be pegged? I thought that only the holder of the private key has any claim on a bitcoin. They will need to hand them over, no?

No.

Think of sidechains as a multi-signature. I can assign one Bitcoin to a sidechain by sending it to a special output which will essentially "lock" the bitcoin on the mainchain and use proof of this "deposit" to issue an equivalent share (token) on the sidechain.

My original Bitcoin is essentially held in escrow until I issue a different transaction from the sidechain to another special output. Once enough work is piled on top of the proof that I sent back the coins to the mainchain (my transaction) then I can use this proof to unlock the special output holding my original bitcoin.  
legendary
Activity: 4592
Merit: 1276
August 23, 2015, 08:17:16 PM

I use it weekly to pay php freelancers I hire in India. I also have 3 clients whom I invoice in bitcoin.  Works fine for me, as I'm sure it does for others.

I use Bitcoin for real transactions with some value behind them.  Sounds like a PissAntCoin sidechain would be right up your alley.


But anyway, get back to my points above.  How do investors handle the coins to be pegged? I thought that only the holder of the private key has any claim on a bitcoin. They will need to hand them over, no?

Again, you really need to brush up on some of the 'elements' technology that the Blockstream guys are working on.  When you hear terms such as 'timelocks' and multi-party signatures perhaps they will start to mean more to you.  Probably not though...you may simply not have what it takes to conceptualize some of the non-trivial use methods that others have moved on to.

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
August 23, 2015, 08:14:39 PM
I find it strange that blockstream hold up Visa as the holy grail in terms of transaction throughput and the need for Bitcoin to adopt sidechains so they can reach these levels.

 Cheesy

So many lines or worthless FUD and yet still not one fucking clue about what sidechains are about.

So sidechains are not about facilitating a greater number of transactions? Do explain. You sound like you are getting frustrated.

No, for the 1000th million times, sidechains are not about scaling Bitcoin.

They're about augmenting its features and capabilities.

Quote
Never have I seen sidechains be proposed as an actual solution to scaling Bitcoin so I'm not certain how that holds true.

If my understanding is correct the proofs used in their concept to move coins between chains are in fact competing with transactions for space in blocks so it makes absolutely no sense to propose they profit from undue advantage by restricting block growth.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12170746


Austin Hill, chief instigator at Blockstream, respectfully disagrees with you.....

Quote
But, there are several problems with bitcoin, too, says Hill, which is why exchanges like Coinbase generally run their own transactions outside the block chain.

Hill told CoinDesk: "There is a practical reason why some of those things can't operate on the block chain, and that's because at peak, they're doing more transactions than bitcoin can support right now."

Instead, Back and Hill want to 'shard' the block chain, creating another block chain, which has a two-way relationship with bitcoin's own.

This will have two major benefits, Hill suggests: functionality, and scalability.

Firstly, "We could have US and Canadian dollars, smart derivatives, option shares, and future contracts. A whole series of programmable trust instruments. A lot of people had talked about these things, and how the block chain could be adapted for this, but I hadn't seen anyone lay out how it would come to pass."

And secondly: "By sharding, you can have orders of magnitude faster transaction processing and you can start to scale bitcoin."

source

Seriously, did you just quote your own opinion  to back up your statement??? 

I'm increasingly convinced you are another one of Lambchamp sock puppet account.

I'm therefore not going to waste my time looking for the dozens of reference by Blockstream developers essentially saying that sidechains can hardly scale the transaction processing power of Bitcoin under current block size.

I quoted myself because the content remains valid: SPV Proofs are competing with transactions for space in blocks. Unless the blocksize increase or they become able to reduce the size of these proofs, the scale of side chains might remain limited.

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