Hi Sebastian, is there any chance of us getting a sensible estimate for the shipping dates of your batches from Yifu if you asked him? He does seem to have been quite communicative today, so you may have some luck. I think that this information would be useful as part of the process of making an informed decision about what to do next (although I'm certainly aware that any delivery estimates should be treated with caution). My strong inclination is to stick with the GB - I've made a deal with you and burnin and I always intended to stick to it. However, if Yifu himself says it will be Xmas before we see chips then it would be a bit silly to go on I suppose.
Anyway, thanks again for all of the hard work that you've put into this, it's really a shame to see things starting to unravel at the end. You've been a hero throughout!
Edit: tiros beat me to the question!
Topic: [Group Buy] Avalon ASIC Chips (SebastianJu) Batch 6 ordered (Closed) - page 19. (Read 125338 times)
August 29, 2013, 01:44:18 PM
August 29, 2013, 01:35:37 PM
Do we have an answer when Yifu will refund chips group buy customers? Knowing how long it took to refund batch #3 Avalon miners maybe we are looking into few months of delays?
For those who won't opt for refund, is there any conclusive day of delivery?
I think that Yifu should give straight answer about delayed chips shipments and time of shipments, and than we could fairly decide what to do.
For those who won't opt for refund, is there any conclusive day of delivery?
I think that Yifu should give straight answer about delayed chips shipments and time of shipments, and than we could fairly decide what to do.
August 29, 2013, 01:20:26 PM
If BFL would give me a refund now, I'd take it.
But not my Bitburner XX! It's special to me
If that partial refund story is true, that would be great.
But not my Bitburner XX! It's special to me
If that partial refund story is true, that would be great.
August 29, 2013, 01:10:30 PM
Yifu prefers now zefir's suggestion a) full refund.
He was also ready for zefir's option b) get the chips later but at cheaper price, which is partial refund.
I'd prefer option b) as I have already paid burnin and he isn't offering full refund, which is understandable.
He was also ready for zefir's option b) get the chips later but at cheaper price, which is partial refund.
I'd prefer option b) as I have already paid burnin and he isn't offering full refund, which is understandable.
August 29, 2013, 12:57:17 PM
And i ask myself if its ok when i pay out 95% of the paid bitcoins at the end so that i dont have to sit alone on the accrued costs and the work time.
The way I see it, the chips cost BTC 0.07821 per chip from Avalon and we paid you an extra BTC 0.00779 for the service of organising the group buy.
If the refund from YiFu is BTC 0.07821 then naturally that should be refunded to buyers. If you choose to choose to refund a portion of the BTC 0.00779 then I'm sure people would thank you, but it seems to me you've done a lot of work and you're certainly not obliged to return all of it (or even any of it).
Just my 2c - I haven't decided if I'm going for a refund yet or will just take the chips.
roy
August 29, 2013, 12:18:15 PM
Is this refund message for batch #6 members too?
August 29, 2013, 12:12:47 PM
Here the Request-Text:
Quote
Hello,
it seem that Yifu would find it best to refund the Avalon Asic Chips because they at the moment arent worth much anymore and cant mine out the buying price as a miner. The 100% refund option is his favorite. See: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3035535
Now the question is what each member in our groupbuy, who still has chips in the line is wishing. Refund or keep the chips anyway. Thats why this PM/Email/Forumpost comes into so i can collect this data and when Yifu posted his refund form we can use it and get refund for so many chips like buyers wish. Since we ordered 5.6 batches it could be that a batch remains ordered to deliver the chips that are wanted. Eventually that would maybe even batch 1.
So i need the following details from every member:
Username:
BTC-Refund Payment-adress:
Amount of chips you want to keep:
Send me the data simply by pm or email if known.
Of course all missing verifications for orders have to be cleared before i can give a refund to a unverified buyer.
Greetings!
Sebastian
it seem that Yifu would find it best to refund the Avalon Asic Chips because they at the moment arent worth much anymore and cant mine out the buying price as a miner. The 100% refund option is his favorite. See: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3035535
Now the question is what each member in our groupbuy, who still has chips in the line is wishing. Refund or keep the chips anyway. Thats why this PM/Email/Forumpost comes into so i can collect this data and when Yifu posted his refund form we can use it and get refund for so many chips like buyers wish. Since we ordered 5.6 batches it could be that a batch remains ordered to deliver the chips that are wanted. Eventually that would maybe even batch 1.
So i need the following details from every member:
Username:
BTC-Refund Payment-adress:
Amount of chips you want to keep:
Send me the data simply by pm or email if known.
Of course all missing verifications for orders have to be cleared before i can give a refund to a unverified buyer.
Greetings!
Sebastian
August 29, 2013, 12:06:43 PM
There are no batches refunded already. He refunds today the batch 3 miners, no chip batches yet.
Yifu dont want coupons because this would be another preorder. He prefers to refund and then everyone can order gen2.
Yifu dont want coupons because this would be another preorder. He prefers to refund and then everyone can order gen2.
August 29, 2013, 12:04:07 PM
some batch are already refunded...
August 29, 2013, 12:01:24 PM
I wonder how much time will it take for Yifu to process chips group buy orders!???
Today he was quick but refunds were delayed for months on Avalon batch #3 miners.
Today he was quick but refunds were delayed for months on Avalon batch #3 miners.
August 29, 2013, 11:53:53 AM
Why doesn't Yifu offer "coupons" for future purchase? No pre-order, but when chips are going to be offered, people holding coupons have first shot.
There just seems that people who have already "risked" something should be rewarded for the business they gave to Avalon.
IAS
There just seems that people who have already "risked" something should be rewarded for the business they gave to Avalon.
IAS
August 29, 2013, 11:23:27 AM
im up for a refund on my chips on batch 5
August 29, 2013, 11:19:11 AM
You could start a group refund thread. Have each buyer post a signed message with payment address associated with their chips. First 10,000 chips = Batch 1 refund; 2nd 10,000 chips = Batch 2 refund, etc.
Just like the group buy threads, but in reverse.
Just like the group buy threads, but in reverse.
Many members want to stay anonymous so i guess only pm or email are an option...
But i will ask if they want to keep a number of chips too.
Okay, after checking back i will create the pm-text now...
August 29, 2013, 11:15:45 AM
It looks like Yifu really prefers a full refund to get out of all this terror.
So i now will start to write every member and ask what its wish is. But i know from the past that it will take much time until i know the answer of everyone.
No problem, do you want us to just post here, like others have done, or would you rather a more organised (and possibly easier for yourself) approach and for us to wait for a private message or an email from you?So i now will start to write every member and ask what its wish is. But i know from the past that it will take much time until i know the answer of everyone.
For those getting upset on loss of revenue (god, honestly some people will never be happy to just get a ROI, were as the hobbists like myself would have been happy with a bit less than the ROI as playing with the stuff is part of what they pay for), at least the price of BTC in hard cash has gone up since you bought them, so have made some money, so stop moaning and think about the kind organisers of all this who have gone through so much. They not only have the same stress as the members of the group buys that their own chips won't arrive. But they have the stress of moaning minnies who only think of think of themselves, the stress of organising the group buys to begin with, the stress when people started to transfer their chips on, the stress of trying to contact Yifi with no answer, or whatever his name is again and god only knows what else. There are some who seem to be of the opinion that the organisers should take the hit and refund in full the members of the group buy. B*ll*cks, we are all in this together, and the refund should be spread equally over the organiser and the members. Why should should the people who have been the most help, put in the most work and effort, and and had the most stress suffer more. In organisers I think we should include board makers as well. These people have been invaluable to us all. They have kept us up to date, even if just to say that there is no news. But at least we then knew. Don't shoot the messengers and the helpers. All of the very angry people, stop posting on here, and send it to that Yifi lad. Nobody else deserves it.
Right, I'm off my pedestal now, he he. Hope the refunds go smoothly for you Sebastian, and again thank you for all you've done. Unfortunately though, there is a part of me that thinks Yifi will c*ck up the refunds too.
Alex
August 29, 2013, 10:59:22 AM
You could start a group refund thread. Have each buyer post a signed message with payment address associated with their chips. First 10,000 chips = Batch 1 refund; 2nd 10,000 chips = Batch 2 refund, etc.
Just like the group buy threads, but in reverse.
Just like the group buy threads, but in reverse.
August 29, 2013, 10:53:46 AM
What happens when at the end less than 10k chips are wished to deliver. And i ask myself if its ok when i pay out 95% of the paid bitcoins at the end so that i dont have to sit alone on the accrued costs and the work time.
May I offer a suggestion: If less than 10.000 chips of 56.000 are still wanted to be delivered, those people who want their chips "no matter what" may be offered an option to buy out the rest of the chips up to 10.000 at the nominal price, and all would be satisfied. Nobody can be hostage of someone's irrational wish to get chips which are not worth what they were payed for.
August 29, 2013, 10:33:35 AM
No1 gonna keep those unless chips :/
So many bach before us !
You can ask for full refund right now !
So many bach before us !
You can ask for full refund right now !
August 29, 2013, 10:11:59 AM
It looks like Yifu really prefers a full refund to get out of all this terror.
So i now will start to write every member and ask what its wish is. But i know from the past that it will take much time until i know the answer of everyone.
Was passiert wenn am Ende weniger als 10000 Chips gewünscht bleiben müssen wir sehen. Und ich frage mich auch ob es ok ist wenn ich 95% der gezahlten Bitcoins erstatte damit ich nicht ganz auf den angefallenen Kosten und der Arbeit sitzen bleibe.
What happens when at the end less than 10k chips are wished to deliver. And i ask myself if its ok when i pay out 95% of the paid bitcoins at the end so that i dont have to sit alone on the accrued costs and the work time.
I'm glad the group buyer leaders are more understanding.
a) I am very open to this, this is what I suggest.
b) I am not a fan of this, on a principle level I rather do a full refund. plus, I rather sell the chips once we have them in hand at a discount, instead of letting people wait.( which is about the same as doing a partial refund in my opinion.)
c) this will not be good, as you know the chips isn't going to get here any faster, and ordering more would run into more delays ( this is the worst option, do not offer.)
d) while in theory this option sounds the best for us right? we keep the money, tout our gen2/3/4 chips and etc etc, but reality is we want to stay away from all pre-orders in the future. as you can imagine, all the problems, rumors and just about everything is caused by the fact we took pre-orders, and we will no longer be doing this.
you are welcome to post this in your thread.
So i now will start to write every member and ask what its wish is. But i know from the past that it will take much time until i know the answer of everyone.
Was passiert wenn am Ende weniger als 10000 Chips gewünscht bleiben müssen wir sehen. Und ich frage mich auch ob es ok ist wenn ich 95% der gezahlten Bitcoins erstatte damit ich nicht ganz auf den angefallenen Kosten und der Arbeit sitzen bleibe.
What happens when at the end less than 10k chips are wished to deliver. And i ask myself if its ok when i pay out 95% of the paid bitcoins at the end so that i dont have to sit alone on the accrued costs and the work time.
Dear BitSyncom,
I organized one of the first group-buys for Avalon ASICs with a total of 80k chips during the second half of April. I already received the first two orders, and while they arrived later than agreed, I understand the difficulties you faced with delivery and am happy to have enabled some DIY projects to produce boards with an expected break-even potential.
With the further delays and the recent development in the mining market, we already passed the point where your chips will ever see a ROI. While the accelerated development of next-gen ASICs and the resulting increase in difficulty is every miners' risk issue, the delay is not. Decision to order the chips was based on your ToS giving a 9-10 weeks delivery time, and with the remaining orders being late for at least 8 weeks you for sure are aware that the chips lost their chance to make back their investment.
As you can imagine, all users desperately waiting for their chips are becoming more and more impatient. I personally have ~200 very sad and upset people in my group-buy and I feel very desperate and helpless not being able to do anything about it.
Yifu, it is only some months ago where you have been one of the most respected and honored person in Bitcoinland. I strongly believe that all this mess is a result of issues out of your control. Nevertheless with power comes responsibility, and now it is on you to take responsibility for the masses of folks out there who put serious amount of coins into your chips. If you really care about Bitcoin and its community, you can't just stand there and watch how disappointed users leave the scene.
As group-buy organizer and large-scale buyer I would like to suggest you several options to compensate chip-buyers for the late delivery:
a) refund: no chips, full refund
b) compensation in BTC: deliver chips, compensate XX% of the initial price
c) compensation in chips: deliver chips, add YY% more chips as compensation
d) compensation by upgrades: no chips, convert orders to next-gen chip orders
Would you be willing and capable to consider those suggestions? If so, I'd be glad to negotiate between my group-buyers and you to reach some agreement acceptable for both sides. Also, I would include other group-buy organizers to come to a generic agreement. For the sake of Bitcoin, please come back to me and let's bring this, that poisoned the community already enough, to an end.
Best Regards
zefir
I organized one of the first group-buys for Avalon ASICs with a total of 80k chips during the second half of April. I already received the first two orders, and while they arrived later than agreed, I understand the difficulties you faced with delivery and am happy to have enabled some DIY projects to produce boards with an expected break-even potential.
With the further delays and the recent development in the mining market, we already passed the point where your chips will ever see a ROI. While the accelerated development of next-gen ASICs and the resulting increase in difficulty is every miners' risk issue, the delay is not. Decision to order the chips was based on your ToS giving a 9-10 weeks delivery time, and with the remaining orders being late for at least 8 weeks you for sure are aware that the chips lost their chance to make back their investment.
As you can imagine, all users desperately waiting for their chips are becoming more and more impatient. I personally have ~200 very sad and upset people in my group-buy and I feel very desperate and helpless not being able to do anything about it.
Yifu, it is only some months ago where you have been one of the most respected and honored person in Bitcoinland. I strongly believe that all this mess is a result of issues out of your control. Nevertheless with power comes responsibility, and now it is on you to take responsibility for the masses of folks out there who put serious amount of coins into your chips. If you really care about Bitcoin and its community, you can't just stand there and watch how disappointed users leave the scene.
As group-buy organizer and large-scale buyer I would like to suggest you several options to compensate chip-buyers for the late delivery:
a) refund: no chips, full refund
b) compensation in BTC: deliver chips, compensate XX% of the initial price
c) compensation in chips: deliver chips, add YY% more chips as compensation
d) compensation by upgrades: no chips, convert orders to next-gen chip orders
Would you be willing and capable to consider those suggestions? If so, I'd be glad to negotiate between my group-buyers and you to reach some agreement acceptable for both sides. Also, I would include other group-buy organizers to come to a generic agreement. For the sake of Bitcoin, please come back to me and let's bring this, that poisoned the community already enough, to an end.
Best Regards
zefir
I'm glad the group buyer leaders are more understanding.
a) I am very open to this, this is what I suggest.
b) I am not a fan of this, on a principle level I rather do a full refund. plus, I rather sell the chips once we have them in hand at a discount, instead of letting people wait.( which is about the same as doing a partial refund in my opinion.)
c) this will not be good, as you know the chips isn't going to get here any faster, and ordering more would run into more delays ( this is the worst option, do not offer.)
d) while in theory this option sounds the best for us right? we keep the money, tout our gen2/3/4 chips and etc etc, but reality is we want to stay away from all pre-orders in the future. as you can imagine, all the problems, rumors and just about everything is caused by the fact we took pre-orders, and we will no longer be doing this.
you are welcome to post this in your thread.
August 29, 2013, 10:04:07 AM
August 29, 2013, 04:29:41 AM
I am definitely for a refund, but Burnin will refund only 50% (i'm in batch 5).
he will refund 50% of parts and boards ie. 50% of orders made by his shop, not chips ordered.50% + full price of chips could be more than the mining revenue we can get when the chips finally arrive - if they ever will
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