Topic: Health and Religion - page 71. (Read 210900 times)

Then why make them in the first place? If you already know they are going to mess up. He made humans essentially just to torture them because he already knew most of them would mess up. There is also no point in waiting for god to comeback. What is he even waiting for if he already knows who is going to accept him or not, again makes no sense.

No, that's not what you are talking about. Rather, you are simply trying to make God look bad, and justify yourself some by doing so.

What did God really what when He made people? Here is what He wanted. He wanted people who would honor Him, praise Him, and be his children. The only way to get that is to make them, knowing that they would have to be punished at times.

Now that you understand this, why are you remaining as and object of future punishment? Why are you not doing - as so many other people have - stepping out from under the punishment into the gifts of joy and glory that God made you for? It's your choice, you know.


Me wanna do it my way. God make me this way and that. But me gonna ignore God, and do it my way. Me know God gonna punish me for it. But me wanna do it my way. So, me gonna ignore God's plan of salvation for me and do it my way and get punishment.


Do you want to hurt yourself? Nobody can stop you. You can even kill yourself. Just remember, it's you who are doing it to yourself.

God wanted children. He knew they were going to mess up, and He would have to punish them for it. So He made the only way out for them that is possible to make. Some of them stopped messing up, and are going to miss the punishment - except for a moment in this life. Keep it up. Mess up really good so you get the punishment forever. Or stop messing up and accept Jesus salvation, thereby accepting God as your Parent, and be saved.

I'm not talking about suffering. I'm talking about how he made adam and eve knowing they will sin or disobey him and then he punishes them for it. It was already built in by him therefore it makes no sense that he would punish them if he made them to do it. Again nonsensical.

As for why God does not prevent suffering we must first understand the purpose of Creation.
  
The purpose of the Creation
http://www.azamra.org/Heal/Resources/Torahview.htm

Perhaps God helps us much more than is commonly realized. Delinquent children often fail to appreciate the efforts of their concerned parents behind the scenes until much later in life. If one looks at the world of 1500 BC it was a dark place full of mysticism and brutality. We thought trees were magical, rocks harbored evil spirits, and volcanoes demanded living sacrifices.

A smarter species might have come to understand God without needing to be hit over the head by his reality. Miracles in the Bible and the need for the simplest basic behavior to be written out for us on a slab of stone tells us that humans needed a great deal of outside help.

Perhaps the entire nation of Israel was created to be just the kind of help you think is missing. When Israel chose to nearly destroy itself in futile rebellions against Rome instead of spreading the message of God to a declining empire desperate for spiritual truth perhaps Christianity was even more help for a slow species not really able to figure things out without a few nudges in the right direction.

The problem is, that god can do something about it, he can do anything, can't he? If I know that my house will get burned tomorrow and I can prevent it then I will just prevent it, it makes no sense to not do anything about it knowing it's going to happen and then get angry, why would I be angry? It makes no sense as I said. God makes no sense.

If I knew my kids will mess up their lives and I can do something to help them then I will just do something to help them, considering god can do anything then again makes no sense.

To understand the meaning and purpose of suffering, we must first go back to the very purpose of the Creation and the meaning of our life in this world.

God's purpose in creation was to bestow of His good to another. Since God desired to bestow good, a partial good would not be sufficient. The good that He bestows would have to be the ultimate good that His handiwork could accept. True good exists only in God. His wisdom therefore decreed that the nature of this true benefaction be His giving created things the opportunity to attach themselves to Him to the greatest degree possible for them.

God's wisdom, however, decreed that for such good to be perfect, the one enjoying it must be its master. He must be one who has earned it for himself, and not one associated with it accidentally and without reason.

God therefore arranged and decreed the creation of concepts of both perfection and deficiency, as well as a creature with equal access to both namely, Man. This creature would then be given the means to earn perfection and avoid deficiency.

Man must earn this perfection, however, through his own free will and desire. If he were compelled to choose perfection, then he would not actually be its master, and God's purpose would not be fulfilled. It was therefore necessary that man be created with free will.

Man's inclinations are therefore balanced between good and evil, and he is not compelled toward either of them. He has the power of choice, and is able to choose either side, knowingly and willingly, as well as to possess whichever one he wishes. Man was therefore created with both a Good Urge and an Evil Urge. He has the power to incline himself in whichever direction he desires.

I don't think you understand that just because you know something, doesn't mean that you are not angry about it. If you knew your house was going to burn down tomorrow, you might even become more angry knowing about it ahead of time, especially if you knew that you couldn't do anything about it until after it burned.

You are way too simplistic in your thinking. God gave people reasoning ability, similar in some ways that God is. You knew that your kids were going to mess up their lives at times, long before you and your missus got together. You still have the kids. You still get angry when they mess up.

Are you really trying to prove yourself an idiot by asking questions like these?

I don't know if you understand but god already knows everything. It says it in your bible. If he knew people would sin, why create people in the first place? Why get angry when something that you know will happen, happens. Don't you understand the logic here? Is not like he suspected it, he already knew. The whole thing makes no sense.

I don't know if you understand but god already knows everything. It says it in your bible. If he knew people would sin, why create people in the first place? Why get angry when something that you know will happen, happens. Don't you understand the logic here? Is not like he suspected it, he already knew. The whole thing makes no sense.

You've seen those so-called G‑d games--like SimEarth or Civilization or The Gungan Frontier--a programmer's idea of what it's like to be G‑d. You look down at a world with detachment and make decisions of global scale with global impact, and watch the mess that ensues. You plop down animals and vegetation while ensuring the biosphere remains balanced and healthy. Sometimes it works out, sometimes there's disaster. Starvation. Catastrophe. Extinction. That's okay. When your mother calls for dinner, you shut down the machine and walk away.

As a developer of software games, I'm wondering how I would redo this in a way that offers a better sense of the G‑d we know in our prayers and our living.

What would it be like if, playing this game, I could see not just from my heavenly throne but from the eyes of any creature on the planet? I could choose a predator or a victim, even a worm, or how about a plant or a rock -- and know life as it goes on from within that being. I would experience the satisfaction of munching green leaves, the fear of an approaching predator, the throbbing heartbeat of an attacked animal. The desperate will to live. And then I would become one with the beast that eats me.

What if I could enter all those creatures at once, and be all of them, all at once? Some that know the world with sight, others that live only in a world of smell, still others who survive by detecting electrical impulses. From within a single world, I could experience a thousand different ones.

I could be a bee that sees a spectrum of color beyond what humans know. Or a worm that lives in a virtually two-dimensional world. Hot as a lizard basking in the sun, cold as a penguin in an Antarctic blizzard. Wet as a fish, dry as a desert moth. Swift as a falcon, sluggish as a sloth. Smart as an angel, silent as a rock. All at once. Boundless diversity of experience. Each the center of a whole world.

And at the same time as I am one with all of them, living within them and feeling how ultimately real all this is, I would remain transcendent and aloof. Infinitely above and intimately within, all at once.

Then there would be a story. And I, the player, would be the author. In a story, you can express your innermost thoughts, thoughts that are otherwise ineffable.

My story would be a very big story, a masterful drama full of little stories. And in the little stories, that's where I would really have fun, since I would give some of my favorite creatures the power to influence the outcome of those little stories. To be the hero or the villain--or just a coward. To take part or to stand by. It would all be their choice and they would each have to live with their decisions.

After all, their consciousness is my consciousness. Since I have free choice to author this whole big story, I could have free choice from within them as well, in these little stories. And that's part of the big story.

So there would be this story with protagonist and antagonist, and I would be within both, but at the same time I would be on the side of the protagonist and against the antagonist. I'm infinite and boundless, remember? So I can be found even in a creature who's against me and against my side. I can be within the hunter and the hunted all at once. And sympathize and feel the pain of both.

And then, in the big story, through a culmination of all the little stories and their little heroes, my side would win. All would recognize the Me that is within them, and even I would find Myself there. And be surprised. If you're G‑d, you can surprise even yourself.

Boy, He must be having some wild time.

Sure, God suspected that it was going to happen (sin). But that wasn't His wish or goal. Rather, He was looking for people who had the free will to sin, but wouldn't use it for sinning. He was looking for a noble people.

So, what did God do? He put Jesus salvation into the mix. This made a way for people to avoid the punishment if they didn't want it.

You can find many examples of choices that you have in life, where one choice hurts, and the other gives enjoyment... and you know it ahead of time. It isn't God's fault if you choose punishment. But if you do choose punishment, He is angry enough at you for doing so, that He will give you what you ask for with a passion.

Why would God be angry with you for choosing punishment? Because that isn't what He made you for. So, if jumping into punishment is what you are willingly doing, especially in the face of the fact that God had to bend way over backward to provide salvation for you, and in the face of the fact that you know it, good riddance of you. You have dishonored Him for the last time.



EDIT: BTW, if yo think that you are going to accept Jesus salvation, just so that you can stick around forever and be a thorn in God's side, forget it. Part of accepting Jesus salvation is being an favor of God. You can't trick Him. Either you do it His way, or bye-bye.

''Before mankind sinned,'' God already knew that was going to happen, therefore there is no point in punishing humans for it.

Before mankind sinned, there was no death. Mankind used his free will to bring on death.

Then mankind went on to use his free will to do all kinds of things that would further death.

If someone murders your daughter, you might have mercy on him, and not pronounce the death penalty on him. But if he is not in the least repentant, and doesn't care that he murdered your daughter, but goes out and kills your other daughter, just for the fun of it, and would go and kill many others any time he had the chance, are you still going to let him live?

Doesn't justice require execution for the murderer? Especially if the guy is an unrepentant homicidal maniac who enjoys killing?

That is the thing God is judging when he puts nations and people to death. It isn't the simple act of direct murder that He is judging. Rather, it is the activities of sin-without-repentance that He is judging. Sin without repentance is the intentionally bringing of death, just like the first sin brought death. God's judgment is accurate, as is His mercy towards many people who He gives a long time, and much more chance to repent... like you.

Like as nations often exercise the death penalty... for justice to be done... so God does the same. He is even more accurate in the justice. And, He is owner of all things. Don't tell Him what He can and can't do with His property. Rather, be glad that He gives you a time of joy for a while, so that you can repent, so that you will not be destroyed like others that God righteously executed.

Anyone looking for another reason not to leave life-and-death issues to the state need look no further than the conflict between the British government and the parents of 11-month-old Charlie Gard.

Governments, including the British courts and the European court of human rights have refused to allow Charlie’s parents to take him to the U.S. for what they believe is life-saving treatment. In what many will regard as a cynical decision, UK judge Nicholas Francis gave Charlie’s parents just two days to present new evidence as to why their son should receive experimental treatment. A final decision will be handed down in a hearing on Thursday.

Doctors at Great Ormond Street Hospital where Charlie is on a ventilator, his brain reportedly damaged from a rare genetic condition, argue that he should be removed from life support and allowed to die. President Trump has offered help. Pope Francis also supports the parent’s right to determine what is best for their child.

Charlie’s parents, Connie Yates and Chris Gard, believe an experimental treatment known as nucleoside therapy might work on their son. British doctors say it won’t improve the child’s “quality of life.” They want him to die. Apparently that’s OK with the state-run National Health Service (NHS), which is always looking for ways to cut costs.

Judges, bureaucrats and politicians should not be allowed to make such a decision, but the growing power of the state is increasingly assuming the power to determine who is fit to live and who should die.

The parents have raised enough money to take Charlie to America for treatment. Wouldn’t most parents do all they could for their child, especially one so young who is helpless and at the mercy of adults? I know I would for my grandson, who is also named Charlie.

Judges, bureaucrats and politicians should not be allowed to make such a decision, but the growing power of the state is increasingly assuming the power to determine who is fit to live and who should die — and to quote Scrooge from Charles Dickens’ “A Christmas Carol,” “decrease the surplus population.” Who, or what, can stop them, assuming a majority want to?

When the state is allowed to assign value to a human life, the unwanted, the inconvenient, the sick, the elderly and the handicapped are all at risk. Seeing lives as less than valuable, or of no value, will bring us to the point where only the fit and healthy are allowed to live. Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, wrote in 1921, “The most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective.” The Nazis took this thinking to its most inhumane level with horrific results.

At a Monday hearing, Judge Francis said “new and powerful” evidence submitted by the parents and their attorney could overturn previous rulings. That would be good, but the larger question is why does a court get to decide what health care is best for a child? That should be the parents’ privilege and responsibility.

It was University of Chicago professor of biology, Dr. Leon Kass, who issued this stern warning: “We have paid some high prices for the technological conquest of nature, but none so high as the intellectual and spiritual costs of seeing nature as mere material for our manipulation, exploitation and transformation. With the powers of biological engineering gathering, there will be splendid new opportunities for similar degradation of our view of man. ... If we come to see ourselves as meat, then meat we shall become.”

Charlie Gard is not “meat.” He and his parents should be allowed to come to America. As long as hope lives, so does Charlie.

The bible has literally pages of god commanding to kill people, what do you mean to look at its entirety? If it's truly the book of a god, you would expect it to have no mistakes. Or that people won't be able to misinterpret it.
You see, all that matters to god is for me to accept that he exists, he doesn't care whether I am a good person or not, it just shows how stupid he is lol

The bible has literally pages of god commanding to kill people, what do you mean to look at its entirety? If it's truly the book of a god, you would expect it to have no mistakes. Or that people won't be able to misinterpret it.
You see, all that matters to god is for me to accept that he exists, he doesn't care whether I am a good person or not, it just shows how stupid he is lol

The biggest problem with the god from the bible is that you need to believe in him to go to heaven. It seems to me that believing in him is all that matters. Im using my brain, logic and the tools god supposedly gave me to find the truth and after studying the bible my conclusions are that he does not exist. Now because of that I'm going to hell. So I'm going to hell because I used the logic god gave me? You realize how that does not make any sense. I can't force myself to believe in him. Why am i going to hell for that. I'm trying to be a good person but it's meaningless if you dont believe in god. You see how it doesn't make any sense.

It does not say God has failed it does however repeatedly discuss the failures of mankind.

Did G-d change His mind with the Flood?
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/756601/jewish/Did-G-d-change-His-mind-with-the-Flood.htm

In the bible it says clearly that god has failed. That's why the flood happened because he failed. A god cannot fail yet it says he failed, it shows again, the stupidity of people who wrote the book.

Question:

The following text from just before the flood seems to imply that G‑d did something wrong, was sorry for it, and surprised by its happening:

"And the L-rd repented that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him in His heart. And the L-rd said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, and the creeping thing and the fowls of the air, for I repent that I have made them."

How could that be when He knows the end before the beginning?

Answer:

Here's what the ancient Midrash has to say on these verses:

A heretic asked R. Joshua ben Korchah: "Don't you Jews say that G‑d knows the future?"

Rabbi Joshua answered, "Yes."

"Why then," continued the heretic, "is it written that 'grieved Him in His heart'?"

Responded R. Joshua, "Was a son ever born to you?"

"Yes," said the heretic.

"What did you do?"

"I rejoiced."

"But didn't you know that one day he will die?"

Replied the man, "One rejoices when it is a time for rejoicing, and one mourns when it is a time for mourning."

Said R. Joshua, "So it is with G‑d."

Rashi, the classic commentator, cites this Midrash and adds a few words to explain further. He adds, "Although it was known to Him that they will sin and be destroyed, He nevertheless created them for the sake of the righteous who will descend from them."

Meaning that G‑d created humankind because He wanted righteous human beings. So when He created them, He rejoiced. He knew there would be wicked people, for there cannot be righteousness without wickedness, good without bad. But now was a time to rejoice. Later, when the wicked would arise, that would be the time to mourn.

If you wish to go a little deeper, ponder this: Is G‑d involved in His creation, or does He stand beyond it? On the one hand, to be the Creator of all that exists out of nothing, He must be entirely beyond all the creation contains. On the other hand, He must be here right now in every event that occurs.

So we say that He is both—in the language of Chassidut, He is within all things and yet encompasses them all at once. To be G‑d, He must, so to speak, be of two minds at once:

He must see things from beyond and from within at the same time.

This is what Rabbi Joshua was explaining to the heretic: On the one hand, G‑d knows all before it happens. He is beyond it all and nothing affects Him. At the same time, He involves Himself within every event of the story as it happens. He is there intimately, within the sorrow and within the joy, within the pain and within the beauty that comes out from that pain. Both modalities are true at once and in both together is He found.

I wrote something on this topic in an article called Playing G‑d, but let me know if this helps answer your question.

Rabbi Tzvi Freeman