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Topic: I'm starting to get fucking pissed (BFL) - page 3. (Read 13694 times)

Cluster2k

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Quote from: Syke on July 17, 2013, 11:44:11 AM

Quote from: SLok on July 17, 2013, 08:29:01 AM

A 60GH single delivered today makes $3,410 a month, Syke and facts, bleh

Mining hardware generates bitcoins. Not dollars. So it only makes sense to calculate ROI based on bitcoins. Bitcoins spent vs. bitcoins generated. Anything else is just to soothe your losses.

I purchased my Jalapenos with USD, not bitcoins. ROI for me with postage and 2Gh cost included was about three weeks. I guess you could say I won the speculation game by paying with dollars as bitcoins went up in value during the time it took BFL to deliver. Had it been the other way around the people paying with bitcoins would be cheering now. All my costs, from electricity to the mortgage I pay for the place where the Jalapenos sit is paid in anything but bitcoins.

Bitcoin is a very high risk, high reward tool. We all understand that and accept the inherent risks.

-ck

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Ruu \o/

Check my edit.

k9quaint

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Quote from: -ck on July 18, 2013, 12:02:12 AM

Quote from: k9quaint on July 17, 2013, 03:16:34 PM

Quote from: -ck on July 17, 2013, 01:59:08 PM

Just to be the devil's advocate, what do you think BFL would have done should the value of BTC fallen by half instead of risen by ten times?

-Snip lots of good comments-

All your comments are valid, but the question was what do you think BFL would have done?

I am not sure I understand the question. Regarding what exactly?

If the price of BTC fell by half from the price @ June 2012? That would put it at a price of about $4 per BTC. That might flatten the difficulty curve in the future (after all the pre-ordered ASICs are delivered to sad pandas). This would give BFL customers a better shot at breaking even in BTC terms.

The price fall would be a great opportunity to acquire BTC from exchanges, for the people who have capital available.

I am not sure how that would make BFL work bugs out faster or build units faster. Unless they have been holding units back and mining with them, which I think unlikely but possible.

-ck

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Ruu \o/

Quote from: k9quaint on July 17, 2013, 03:16:34 PM

Quote from: -ck on July 17, 2013, 01:59:08 PM

Just to be the devil's advocate, what do you think BFL would have done should the value of BTC fallen by half instead of risen by ten times?

-Snip lots of good comments-

All your comments are valid, but the question was what do you think BFL would have done?

If you had bought your hardware with $1500 worth of bitcoin, they're refunding you with $1500 worth of USD because that amount of bitcoin is now worth $15000 (for argument's sake), but if bitcoin had dropped and that amount of bitcoin was now worth $750, do you think they would have refunded you with $1500 worth of USD or with $750 worth of BTC?

k9quaint

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Quote from: -ck on July 17, 2013, 01:59:08 PM

Quote from: firefop on July 17, 2013, 01:50:22 PM

Quote from: Syke on July 17, 2013, 01:28:00 AM

Quote from: firefop on July 17, 2013, 12:09:23 AM

If for example you got your 60gh single upgrade right now... ROI in under a week.

Singles cost 200 btc back then and now generate 1 btc per day. ROI is already at 6 months assuming no difficulty increases. But as we all know, there's lots of increases on the way. A single delivered now will never break even.

nothing from bfl was ever priced in btc, it was always USD. You're making the mistake of attempting to hold bfl accountable for the price change in btc...

Just to be the devil's advocate, what do you think BFL would have done should the value of BTC fallen by half instead of risen by ten times?

It doesn't matter what the BTC exchange rate is when you buy mining equipment. It also does not matter whether the exchange rate rises or falls. You can calculate whether or not you should purchase for any given set of difficulty growth rates and starting rate.

When you buy mining equipment you are making an investment in BTC. Buying ASIC mining equipment provides a variable amount of BTC. Buying the BTC from an exchange provides a fixed amount of BTC. If you get more BTC from mining than from buying BTC off an exchange, then mining might be a good investment. If you get more BTC from the exchange than from buying mining equipment, then mining would be a bad investment.

BTC cannot have negative value, ergo (all other things being equal) more BTC is always better than less BTC.
Nobody is holding BFL responsible for the exchange rate.
BFL customers from June 2012 could not have predicted that their investment in BFL was inferior to purchasing BTC off an exchange because of the "Two More Weeks(TM)" marketing that went on.

Syke

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Quote from: SLok on July 17, 2013, 12:55:48 PM

If it would make 20 btc a day and the btc value in $ would have dropped to $0.20, you would still have a party I guess? Fact is my jalapeno paid back the $ spent on it in 10 days.

Yes, that's right! When you get more btc than you spent, you've made a profitable investment. When you get less btc, you've lost.

Jack1Rip1BurnIt

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Activity: 350

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Trust me, these default swaps will limit the risks

Just stopping by to say I ordered a Jalepeno (later upgraded to a Little Single) June 23 2012, I actually received the device July 03 2013. I have been mining for 2 weeks straight on it and have now recovered all $ spent on the device. I will proceed to make profits for as many days as possible from here on out. The product I received is fantastic and looks sleek as hell too! With that being said I think Butterfly Labs is a FUBAR company that has no idea how to handle a schedule. I will not purchase another device from BFL until the shipping rate is down to a week or two maximum and the price of the asics have dropped dramatically. With all this competition starting to pop up the prices will begin to drop, and there will be at least one company that outshines the rest. Whomever is the best will receive my money. Till then...FUCK BFL's bullshit!

P.S.- They gave me a coffee mug and made it all better

-ck

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Ruu \o/

Quote from: firefop on July 17, 2013, 01:50:22 PM

Quote from: Syke on July 17, 2013, 01:28:00 AM

Quote from: firefop on July 17, 2013, 12:09:23 AM

If for example you got your 60gh single upgrade right now... ROI in under a week.

Singles cost 200 btc back then and now generate 1 btc per day. ROI is already at 6 months assuming no difficulty increases. But as we all know, there's lots of increases on the way. A single delivered now will never break even.

nothing from bfl was ever priced in btc, it was always USD. You're making the mistake of attempting to hold bfl accountable for the price change in btc...

Just to be the devil's advocate, what do you think BFL would have done should the value of BTC fallen by half instead of risen by ten times?

firefop

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Quote from: Syke on July 17, 2013, 01:28:00 AM

Quote from: firefop on July 17, 2013, 12:09:23 AM

If for example you got your 60gh single upgrade right now... ROI in under a week.

Singles cost 200 btc back then and now generate 1 btc per day. ROI is already at 6 months assuming no difficulty increases. But as we all know, there's lots of increases on the way. A single delivered now will never break even.

nothing from bfl was ever priced in btc, it was always USD. You're making the mistake of attempting to hold bfl accountable for the price change in btc...

Yes, it sure sucks all those coins I mined and sold when btc was 6 bucks, or 10, or 20... sure wish I'd saved more...

nottm28

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Activity: 574

Merit: 500

Oh don't start him off please - I am following this and don't want to see a million posts from xian about bfl

Xian01

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Christian Antkow

Quote from: SLok on July 17, 2013, 12:55:48 PM

but sorry that I wasn't clearer and made you miss that I asked without really giving a f**k about your case.

So you are effectively admitting that you are nothing more than a common troll and shill then ? Why ask then if you don't care ? I'm genuinely interested in what you are trying to accomplish here.

EDIT: Actually, it doesn't matter. Adding SLok to my ignore list.

SLok

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Activity: 568

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Quote from: Syke on July 17, 2013, 11:44:11 AM

Quote from: SLok on July 17, 2013, 08:29:01 AM

A 60GH single delivered today makes $3,410 a month, Syke and facts, bleh

Mining hardware generates bitcoins. Not dollars. So it only makes sense to calculate ROI based on bitcoins. Bitcoins spent vs. bitcoins generated. Anything else is just to soothe your losses.

If it would make 20 btc a day and the btc value in $ would have dropped to $0.20, you would still have a party I guess? Fact is my jalapeno paid back the $ spent on it in 10 days.

Quote from: Xian01 on July 17, 2013, 12:04:21 PM

Quote from: SLok on July 17, 2013, 11:26:54 AM

How's your lawsuit going?

I trust you can appreciate it's not proper to publicly discuss pending actions once lawyers have formally become involved, so you might as well stop with the futile baiting. I announced a while back that I would be going dark about specifics pertaining to my legal dispute with BFL.

I'm afraid you're just going to have to keep wondering.

So you don't have a better calculation, but sorry that I wasn't clearer and made you miss that I asked without really giving a f**k about your case.

amencon

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Activity: 410

Merit: 250

Quote from: DPoS on July 17, 2013, 08:38:12 AM

Quote from: Syke on July 17, 2013, 01:28:00 AM

Quote from: firefop on July 17, 2013, 12:09:23 AM

If for example you got your 60gh single upgrade right now... ROI in under a week.

Singles cost 200 btc back then and now generate 1 btc per day. ROI is already at 6 months assuming no difficulty increases. But as we all know, there's lots of increases on the way. A single delivered now will never break even.

people still using the 'if you held on to year old btc' arguments??

I made long posts exposing this fallacy. The fault is that people bet on BFL to deliver and they didn't, you can't go by the btc increase. Anything you bought with btc at that time looks dumb in hindsight. You could of spent 300 btc on weed and you would say.. omg how much smoke i would have if i waited a year... lol

When the USBees came out, btc was around $120.. it is kinda the complete opposite situation. A device that can't really hash too well but you gained by spending your btc then instead of holding them.. still doesn't really make that a good purchase unless you just like having them... but then they changed the price so you lose that small positive that you had..

so future telling is a waste, you have to make the decision on what you know at the time and hedge if you are unsure

People ordered based on the promises of BFL. Had BFL delivered when they said they would customers would not have lost money and opportunity like they have now. BFL lied, customers cried, that's history not foretelling the future. I do get your point though. Also I agree with Syke that calculating ROI with a mining machine really only makes sense using BTC. The way I see it is if you don't ROI on USD because BTC price dropped through the floor but you did ROI in BTC then the machine did make ROI but you ended up losing USD based on BTC conversion price speculation.

k9quaint

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Quote from: DPoS on July 17, 2013, 08:38:12 AM

Quote from: Syke on July 17, 2013, 01:28:00 AM

Quote from: firefop on July 17, 2013, 12:09:23 AM

If for example you got your 60gh single upgrade right now... ROI in under a week.

Singles cost 200 btc back then and now generate 1 btc per day. ROI is already at 6 months assuming no difficulty increases. But as we all know, there's lots of increases on the way. A single delivered now will never break even.

people still using the 'if you held on to year old btc' arguments??

I made long posts exposing this fallacy. The fault is that people bet on BFL to deliver and they didn't, you can't go by the btc increase. Anything you bought with btc at that time looks dumb in hindsight. You could of spent 300 btc on weed and you would say.. omg how much smoke i would have if i waited a year... lol

When the USBees came out, btc was around $120.. it is kinda the complete opposite situation. A device that can't really hash too well but you gained by spending your btc then instead of holding them.. still doesn't really make that a good purchase unless you just like having them... but then they changed the price so you lose that small positive that you had..

so future telling is a waste, you have to make the decision on what you know at the time and hedge if you are unsure

In this situation you are deciding between buying a variable return of BTC (ASIC mining equipment) or a fixed return of BTC (buying bitcoin from an exchange). In both cases, the only thing you will receive for your investment is BTC. So you can completely ignore exchange rates. If you take X amount of BTC and invest it in something that only produces BTC and receive less than X BTC back, it was a bad investment.

The USBees were never a good investment. They were priced in BTC and only produced BTC. At the original price of 2, it was highly unlikely that they would ever earn back that 2 BTC. BFL has been a bad investment for miners because no matter what the exchange rate is in the future, they would have been better off just buying/holding their BTC.

Xian01

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Christian Antkow

Quote from: SLok on July 17, 2013, 11:26:54 AM

How's your lawsuit going?

I trust you can appreciate it's not proper to publicly discuss pending actions once lawyers have formally become involved, so you might as well stop with the futile baiting. I announced a while back that I would be going dark about specifics pertaining to my legal dispute with BFL.

I'm afraid you're just going to have to keep wondering.

Syke

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Quote from: SLok on July 17, 2013, 08:29:01 AM

A 60GH single delivered today makes $3,410 a month, Syke and facts, bleh

Mining hardware generates bitcoins. Not dollars. So it only makes sense to calculate ROI based on bitcoins. Bitcoins spent vs. bitcoins generated. Anything else is just to soothe your losses.

SLok

hero member

Activity: 568

Merit: 500

Quote from: Xian01 on July 17, 2013, 08:34:38 AM

Quote from: SLok on July 17, 2013, 08:29:01 AM

Quote from: Syke on July 17, 2013, 01:28:00 AM

Quote from: firefop on July 17, 2013, 12:09:23 AM

If for example you got your 60gh single upgrade right now... ROI in under a week.

Singles cost 200 btc back then and now generate 1 btc per day. ROI is already at 6 months assuming no difficulty increases. But as we all know, there's lots of increases on the way. A single delivered now will never break even.

A 60GH single delivered today makes $3,410 a month, Syke and facts, bleh

Sorta like SLok and shilling ? Bleh indeed.

All your gunpowder gone already, and nothing left but the shill mantra? Have a better calculation perhaps? How's your lawsuit going?

Quote from: Bicknellski on July 17, 2013, 08:37:25 AM

Quote from: Xian01 on July 17, 2013, 08:34:38 AM

Quote from: SLok on July 17, 2013, 08:29:01 AM

Quote from: Syke on July 17, 2013, 01:28:00 AM

Quote from: firefop on July 17, 2013, 12:09:23 AM

If for example you got your 60gh single upgrade right now... ROI in under a week.

Singles cost 200 btc back then and now generate 1 btc per day. ROI is already at 6 months assuming no difficulty increases. But as we all know, there's lots of increases on the way. A single delivered now will never break even.

A 60GH single delivered today makes $3,410 a month, Syke and facts, bleh

Sorta like SLok and shilling ? Bleh indeed.

Let us highlight the important FACT that is missing in that assumption... D E L I V E R E D.

Read Syke's message were I was responding on, I've highlighted it in red to make it easy for you since you had Montessori and obviously missed a lot, like comprehensive reading.

DPoS

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Quote from: Syke on July 17, 2013, 01:28:00 AM

Quote from: firefop on July 17, 2013, 12:09:23 AM

If for example you got your 60gh single upgrade right now... ROI in under a week.

Singles cost 200 btc back then and now generate 1 btc per day. ROI is already at 6 months assuming no difficulty increases. But as we all know, there's lots of increases on the way. A single delivered now will never break even.

people still using the 'if you held on to year old btc' arguments??

I made long posts exposing this fallacy. The fault is that people bet on BFL to deliver and they didn't, you can't go by the btc increase. Anything you bought with btc at that time looks dumb in hindsight. You could of spent 300 btc on weed and you would say.. omg how much smoke i would have if i waited a year... lol

When the USBees came out, btc was around $120.. it is kinda the complete opposite situation. A device that can't really hash too well but you gained by spending your btc then instead of holding them.. still doesn't really make that a good purchase unless you just like having them... but then they changed the price so you lose that small positive that you had..

so future telling is a waste, you have to make the decision on what you know at the time and hedge if you are unsure

Bicknellski

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Activity: 924

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Xian01 on July 17, 2013, 08:34:38 AM

Quote from: SLok on July 17, 2013, 08:29:01 AM

Quote from: Syke on July 17, 2013, 01:28:00 AM

Quote from: firefop on July 17, 2013, 12:09:23 AM

If for example you got your 60gh single upgrade right now... ROI in under a week.

Singles cost 200 btc back then and now generate 1 btc per day. ROI is already at 6 months assuming no difficulty increases. But as we all know, there's lots of increases on the way. A single delivered now will never break even.

A 60GH single delivered today makes $3,410 a month, Syke and facts, bleh

Sorta like SLok and shilling ? Bleh indeed.

Let us highlight the important FACT that is missing in that assumption... D E L I V E R E D.

Xian01

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Activity: 1652

Merit: 1067

Christian Antkow

Quote from: SLok on July 17, 2013, 08:29:01 AM

Quote from: Syke on July 17, 2013, 01:28:00 AM

Quote from: firefop on July 17, 2013, 12:09:23 AM

If for example you got your 60gh single upgrade right now... ROI in under a week.

Singles cost 200 btc back then and now generate 1 btc per day. ROI is already at 6 months assuming no difficulty increases. But as we all know, there's lots of increases on the way. A single delivered now will never break even.

A 60GH single delivered today makes $3,410 a month, Syke and facts, bleh

Sorta like SLok and shilling ? Bleh indeed.

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