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Topic: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! - page 14. (Read 105842 times)

hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 19, 2011, 01:11:24 PM
I will admit that copying a number without the permission of the "finder" does "harm" to the extent that they were entitled to profit by controlling the use of the number.

So, you are for protecting all ideas with IP lllaws, or just some ideas?

There is a difference between an idea and media. I am in favor of protection of media. I am not in favor of ideas nearly so much. Any idea can be expressed in countless ways, but a specific expression of an idea - a book or movie, deserves protection.

As for patents, which are more akin to ideas, some are valid, and perhaps some are not. The inventor does deserve some credit, but again, it is a matter of degree, which boils down to the complexity required to describe it.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
October 19, 2011, 01:06:49 PM
I will admit that copying a number without the permission of the "finder" does "harm" to the extent that they were entitled to profit by controlling the use of the number.

So, you are for protecting all ideas with IP lllaws, or just some ideas?
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 19, 2011, 01:02:43 PM
I will admit that copying a number without the permission of the "finder" does "harm" to the extent that they were entitled to profit by controlling the use of the number.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 19, 2011, 01:01:30 PM
Honestly, are you dense? Copying the number 925 and a number the size of which resides on a DVD are both acts of copying. Both are different in degree though, and that is what matters. Same as something touching your back. Both are acts of force, but different in degree.

So how much force would be applied to you if there was someone who copied your DVD in China and gives it to another chinese person? How many Newtons of Force would that be approximately?

I see you failed to comprehend the example was to point out the significance of degree.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 19, 2011, 12:59:44 PM
Honestly, are you dense? Copying the number 925 and a number the size of which resides on a DVD are both acts of copying. Both are different in degree though, and that is what matters. Same as something touching your back. Both are acts of force, but different in degree.

I'm referring to your continued insistence that copying == theft.

Tell me, is copying your fellow classmate's test answers appropriate or allowed? Is copying your fellow student's thesis acceptable?

I will admit that copying a number without the permission of the "finder" does "harm" to the extent that they were entitled to profit by controlling the use of the number.

Noted.

However, it does not harm them in the same way that they are harmed if I take their physical property.

Why are you arguing against your own perceived set of counter-arguments against your stance?

Furthermore, I do not agree that by finding the number they are entitled to control its use by others (who use their physical property to do so).

Demonstrate to me that it is statistically likely in the next trillion years or so that the number would've been found otherwise. If you can do that, your case might be stronger. Otherwise, it can mathematically be demonstrated that any other person would never benefit from the number's existence unless the original discoverer found it.

And lastly, as you have pointed out, physical property is not the same as numbers. Given that, you're going to find it tough to demonstrate that the idea of 'copying' a number has any meaning. In mathematics, the set of all numbers means each number is unique and only exists once - rendering the idea of copying nonsensical. Since all numbers are unique and only exist once, it can be demonstrated that your possession of it is in fact stealing, as opposed to copying.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
October 19, 2011, 12:57:02 PM
Honestly, are you dense? Copying the number 925 and a number the size of which resides on a DVD are both acts of copying. Both are different in degree though, and that is what matters. Same as something touching your back. Both are acts of force, but different in degree.

So how much force would be applied to you if there was someone who copied your DVD in China and gives it to another chinese person? How many Newtons of Force would that be approximately?
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
October 19, 2011, 12:53:01 PM
Books, movies, and music, and all intellectual property, are essentially ideas, put down on some storage medium. So why are some ideas, like stories, get to have IP protections, but many others, like business practices, do not?
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
October 19, 2011, 12:40:48 PM
Honestly, are you dense? Copying the number 925 and a number the size of which resides on a DVD are both acts of copying. Both are different in degree though, and that is what matters. Same as something touching your back. Both are acts of force, but different in degree.

I'm referring to your continued insistence that copying == theft.

I will admit that copying a number without the permission of the "finder" does "harm" to the extent that they were entitled to profit by controlling the use of the number. However, it does not harm them in the same way that they are harmed if I take their physical property. Furthermore, I do not agree that by finding the number they are entitled to control its use by others (who use their physical property to do so).
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 19, 2011, 12:33:49 PM
Sorry, but no. I am not going to call all mimicry theft. By your logic, a pat on the back is the same as a cannonball hitting your back at 200 miles per hour. The two are different.

You can't just make up some stupid shit and say "by your logic".

Both a pat on the back and a cannonball are physical force. Your logic is that physical things and ideas are treated the same. So a better analogy would be "a cannonball hitting your back at 200 miles per hour and the thought of a cannonball hitting your back are the same thing".

Honestly, are you dense? Copying the number 925 and a number the size of which resides on a DVD are both acts of copying. Both are different in degree though, and that is what matters. Same as something touching your back. Both are acts of force, but different in degree.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
October 19, 2011, 12:31:30 PM
Sorry, but no. I am not going to call all mimicry theft. By your logic, a pat on the back is the same as a cannonball hitting your back at 200 miles per hour. The two are different.

You can't just make up some stupid shit and say "by your logic".

Both a pat on the back and a cannonball are physical force. Your logic is that physical things and ideas should treated the same. So a better analogy would be "a cannonball hitting your back at 200 miles per hour and the thought of a cannonball hitting your back at 200 miles per hour are the same thing".
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 19, 2011, 12:29:51 PM
Why not, since it would never be found otherwise?

You just quoted his post, which is copying the information he found, without permission. Pay him restitution or we will come kidnap you!

Excelent point. Where do I send the check?

What excellent point has been made by either of you? A pat on the back is not the same as a cannonball.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 19, 2011, 12:27:43 PM
What does ease of transferability have to do with it? Using that logic, I might argue that if I am able to commit a crime against you with ease, then it must be justified.

Besides, how easy would it be for you to transfer the next film by the Coen Brothers when they have not yet made it? There comes a point when you have to recognize and respect the efforts of others, especially when it can be mathematically demonstrated that even if everyone alive today lives a billion years, nobody else is going to make available the next Coen Brothers movie until they make it. That number, whatever it is, has not yet been pulled off the shelf of The Library of Babel, and except for their efforts, will essentially never be pulled of the shelf. From both a moral standpoint (your lack of respect and recognition of the work of others), and from a mathematical standpoint, your argument fails.

I was referring to the transfer of a copy, and not the location of the original number as inscribed in the pattern on the object of the original owner. Mimicry is just applied observation. Everybody does it. Are you going to call all mimicry theft? Because if that were the case, we would all be thieves. Theft is physical material matter transferred to another without the permission of the owner. Stop making special exceptions, it makes your logic look ridiculous.

Copyright owners are disrespecting the transferability and use of my property. From a moral standpoint your arguments fail even worse.

Sorry, but no. I am not going to call all mimicry theft. By your logic, a pat on the back is the same as a cannonball hitting your back at 200 miles per hour. The two are different.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
October 19, 2011, 12:15:30 PM
Why not, since it would never be found otherwise?

You just quoted his post, which is copying the information he found, without permission. Pay him restitution or we will come kidnap you!

Excelent point. Where do I send the check?
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
October 19, 2011, 12:11:02 PM
What does ease of transferability have to do with it? Using that logic, I might argue that if I am able to commit a crime against you with ease, then it must be justified.

Besides, how easy would it be for you to transfer the next film by the Coen Brothers when they have not yet made it? There comes a point when you have to recognize and respect the efforts of others, especially when it can be mathematically demonstrated that even if everyone alive today lives a billion years, nobody else is going to make available the next Coen Brothers movie until they make it. That number, whatever it is, has not yet been pulled off the shelf of The Library of Babel, and except for their efforts, will essentially never be pulled of the shelf. From both a moral standpoint (your lack of respect and recognition of the work of others), and from a mathematical standpoint, your argument fails.

I was referring to the transfer of a copy, and not the location of the original number as inscribed in the pattern on the object of the original owner. Mimicry is just applied observation. Everybody does it. Are you going to call all mimicry theft? Because if that were the case, we would all be thieves. Theft is physical material matter transferred to another without the permission of the owner. Stop making special exceptions, it makes your logic look ridiculous.

Copyright owners are disrespecting the transferability and use of my property. From a moral standpoint your arguments fail even worse.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
October 19, 2011, 12:06:14 PM
Why not, since it would never be found otherwise?

You just quoted his post, which is copying the information he found, without permission. Pay him restitution or we will come kidnap you!
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 19, 2011, 12:04:06 PM
Because he pays the salaries of the scriptwriters, directors, producers, actors, cameramen, scenery staff and other people who "find" the movie and unless he has a way to get paid, there will be no movie.

We've discussed this - why are you going back over it?

So he paid people to "find" the movie, or book, or any other combination or permutation of information. So what? If I were to pay somebody to "find" something different, should I be able to charge other people once it's found?

Why not, since it would never be found otherwise?

If you are merely the discoverer of information, that would imply you never owned the information in the first place. Why should a re-arrangement of bits of data be any different than a random set of bits of data? Your interpretation doesn't change the intrinsic "info-bits" themselves. Why should we be contractually bound to you because you think your permutation is any better than any other.

And don't say because you spent money and effort on it. We all do that. If that were the case, I could charge you for all the effort I've expended in re-arranging the information I have. Weird.

Actually, your post is weird. You haven't thought it through. The first thing you need to do is grasp the extent of large numbers yet discovered.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 19, 2011, 12:00:13 PM
Stealing a very large number deprives the legitimate discoverer of it his earnings from expending the effort it making it available to everyone else, because it wouldn't be available otherwise. We're done here.

You can't steal a number. It's just information. You may have spent a lifetime looking for it, but copies of it are easily transferable.

What does ease of transferability have to do with it? Using that logic, I might argue that if I am able to commit a crime against you with ease, then it must be justified.

Besides, how easy would it be for you to transfer the next film by the Coen Brothers when they have not yet made it? There comes a point when you have to recognize and respect the efforts of others, especially when it can be mathematically demonstrated that even if everyone alive today lives a billion years, nobody else is going to make available the next Coen Brothers movie until they make it. That number, whatever it is, has not yet been pulled off the shelf of The Library of Babel, and except for their efforts, will essentially never be pulled of the shelf. From both a moral standpoint (your lack of respect and recognition of the work of others), and from a mathematical standpoint, your argument fails.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
October 19, 2011, 11:31:28 AM
Because he pays the salaries of the scriptwriters, directors, producers, actors, cameramen, scenery staff and other people who "find" the movie and unless he has a way to get paid, there will be no movie.

We've discussed this - why are you going back over it?

So he paid people to "find" the movie, or book, or any other combination or permutation of information. So what? If I were to pay somebody to "find" something different, should I be able to charge other people once it's found?

If you are merely the discoverer of information, that would imply you never owned the information in the first place. Why should a re-arrangement of bits of data be any different than a random set of bits of data? Your interpretation doesn't change the intrinsic "info-bits" themselves. Why should we be contractually bound to you because you think your permutation is any better than any other.

And don't say because you spent money and effort on it. We all do that. If that were the case, I could charge you for all the effort I've expended in re-arranging the information I have. Weird.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
October 19, 2011, 11:21:17 AM
Stealing a very large number deprives the legitimate discoverer of it his earnings from expending the effort it making it available to everyone else, because it wouldn't be available otherwise. We're done here.

You can't steal a number. It's just information. You may have spent a lifetime looking for it, but copies of it are easily transferable. Nobody forced you to search for it. I suppose you would then propose that if one of the first proto-humans, were he to find a number (say the #1), he could, of logic and reason, be able to manipulate all of mankind (demand payment) for all eternity because he was the first to represent a number in some written or transliterated form.

Or the first to invent fire, or build a house, a boat, make clothes, shoes, create an alphabet, words in a dictionary, etc.

It would seem if property were of the sort you suggest, much of innovation would come to a standstill.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
October 19, 2011, 11:04:25 AM
If you can't actually address even some of the content written by someone else, then how possibly can you believe that anything you write is relevant? The Library of Babel is hardly a book on law. And incidentally, a book on law would be irrelevant in the absence of a universe to apply knowledge of law to.

Here is a synopsis of The Library of Babel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Library_of_Babel

And yet here we are. I'm not too concerned that there isn't a universe. Books of fiction don't interest me much either unless they have a very good point to make.
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