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Topic: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! - page 12. (Read 105893 times)

hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 19, 2011, 11:14:55 PM
What about if i was to take my property consisting of raw materials like steel, glass, leather, and plastic, and convert those materials into a perfect copy of a Porche? Did I just steal a Porche by doing that?

No, you infringed upon the intellectual property of Porsche. Tell me, how many times can you do that without it costing you a huge amount of time and effort?
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 252
October 19, 2011, 11:09:25 PM
I don't wish to debate the nuances of how plagiarism is a subset of copying.

You don't even understand the difference between copying and plagiarism, do you? There are no nuances here, they are completely different things.

Also, you better not demand anyone respond to your "arguments" (I literally lol'd typing that) anymore, or else I will arrive quickly to call you out for being a hypocrite.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
October 19, 2011, 10:56:13 PM
What about if i was to take my property consisting of raw materials like steel, glass, leather, and plastic, and convert those materials into a perfect copy of a Porche? Did I just steal a Porche by doing that?
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 19, 2011, 10:45:48 PM
You're confusing a lot of things here. Honestly, it all sounds like a grab bag of half assed arguments to try and bolster your belief that you can disrespect the efforts of others.

Can you please do me the courtesy of responding to my arguments, the same standard to which you hold me, instead of dismissing them?

I already presented my arguments. Feel free to go back and reread them. I don't hold that your current arguments need addressing. For example, if I presented an argument to you regarding this topic, and you came back and started discussing the length of giraffe necks, I'd just shake my head and move on.

If you wish to address why you believe a particular film would just magically come into being in the absence of those who created it, or wish to address why you believe you can deny compensation to those who put forth a huge effort to make a film, then do so.

As it stands though, your arguments just aren't worth much.

If you've got arguments that address the issues highlighted in this post, please use them. Otherwise, if you continue to insist that others respond to your posts but deny them the same courtesy, then you are a hypocrite and have nothing further to offer this discussion. If you refuse to respond to my arguments and instead rely upon character attacks, you are admitting to this fact.

I will be happy to address your points if you'd take care to first edit them into points that matter. For example, I don't wish to debate the nuances of how plagiarism is a subset of copying. Nor am I interested in engaging in an endless debate about your comparisons to slavery. It's obvious that there are extreme disparities that render the comparison weak at best, and more generally, just absurd. I don't care to do your work for you, so if you'd like to strengthen your point of view by trimming the weak parts from it, then I can engage in the real work of debating you.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 19, 2011, 10:24:34 PM
MoonShadow,

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. 70 years, five notes, etc. We're in agreement.

But somewhere in there is a line that is defensible. It's not 70 years, and it's not five notes.

The only line that is defensible is the one that crosses over onto other peoples property. The definition of which must be grounded in physical things (isn't everything anyway). It seems the older we get, the smarter we think we are. We think the intangible is somehow tangible. That an idea is somehow property. A reified object (intangible) is one that doesn't exist, and yet here we are arguing over who owns it. Impossibly childish.

Just wrong. And it's not childish. For everyday numbers, yes. But not for numbers with a hundred thousand plus digits, which when interpreted a certain way, represent something meaningful.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
October 19, 2011, 08:52:27 PM
That's not a moral question, and I think that you know it.  Whether or not a particular law causes harm or not, is not the moral question.  It's a practical question.  But a corrolary to the question, "would repeal of IP laws cause harm" is "do IP laws cause harm now?"  The answer to both questions is, provablely, yes.  So which is the moral cause?  Neither.  Harm avoidance is not a principle to decide laws upon.

Isn't "harm avoidance" effectively the NAP?
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
October 19, 2011, 08:49:44 PM
MoonShadow,

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. 70 years, five notes, etc. We're in agreement.

But somewhere in there is a line that is defensible. It's not 70 years, and it's not five notes.

The only line that is defensible is the one that crosses over onto other peoples property. The definition of which must be grounded in physical things (isn't everything anyway). It seems the older we get, the smarter we think we are. We think the intangible is somehow tangible. That an idea is somehow property. A reified object (intangible) is one that doesn't exist, and yet here we are arguing over who owns it. Impossibly childish.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
October 19, 2011, 08:45:07 PM
IP law is intended to be of benefit to society.  If you can't persuade your legislature that granting IP protection to recipes is a good idea, you are stuffed.

Creating positive law is always damaging to someone.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 252
October 19, 2011, 05:16:37 PM
You're confusing a lot of things here. Honestly, it all sounds like a grab bag of half assed arguments to try and bolster your belief that you can disrespect the efforts of others.

Can you please do me the courtesy of responding to my arguments, the same standard to which you hold me, instead of dismissing them?

I already presented my arguments. Feel free to go back and reread them. I don't hold that your current arguments need addressing. For example, if I presented an argument to you regarding this topic, and you came back and started discussing the length of giraffe necks, I'd just shake my head and move on.

If you wish to address why you believe a particular film would just magically come into being in the absence of those who created it, or wish to address why you believe you can deny compensation to those who put forth a huge effort to make a film, then do so.

As it stands though, your arguments just aren't worth much.

If you've got arguments that address the issues highlighted in this post, please use them. Otherwise, if you continue to insist that others respond to your posts but deny them the same courtesy, then you are a hypocrite and have nothing further to offer this discussion. If you refuse to respond to my arguments and instead rely upon character attacks, you are admitting to this fact.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
October 19, 2011, 04:55:18 PM
If I go to the trouble, would you even consider changing your position?  Be honest, now.

Are you speaking to me? I won't change my position with regard to works represented by numbers so large that they would never be available to anyone other than the fact that some entity went to the effort to create it.

I was speaking to anyone, really.  Thanks for the honesty.  Ultimately, the morality of IP laws are an irrelevant argument then?  The 'greater good' of the general public is of no concern, even though that is exactly the (official) reason that IP laws presently exist.

This is exactly why I called this entire topic an intellectual circle jerk.  I'm not going to change my opinion, unless you can demonstrate a moral foundation for their support, which I believe to be impossible.  And you're not going to change your position unless I, do what exactly?

The moral foundation is well established.  We live in societies that have the right to act to prevent harm.  If the abolition of IP laws is believed to be harmful, society has every right to protect itself by creating and enforcing IP laws.

The only real issue is whether or not society is justified in believing that removal of IP laws would cause harm.



That's not a moral question, and I think that you know it.  Whether or not a particular law causes harm or not, is not the moral question.  It's a practical question.  But a corrolary to the question, "would repeal of IP laws cause harm" is "do IP laws cause harm now?"  The answer to both questions is, provablely, yes.  So which is the moral cause?  Neither.  Harm avoidance is not a principle to decide laws upon.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
October 19, 2011, 04:49:54 PM
If I go to the trouble, would you even consider changing your position?  Be honest, now.

Are you speaking to me? I won't change my position with regard to works represented by numbers so large that they would never be available to anyone other than the fact that some entity went to the effort to create it.

I was speaking to anyone, really.  Thanks for the honesty.  Ultimately, the morality of IP laws are an irrelevant argument then?  The 'greater good' of the general public is of no concern, even though that is exactly the (official) reason that IP laws presently exist.

This is exactly why I called this entire topic an intellectual circle jerk.  I'm not going to change my opinion, unless you can demonstrate a moral foundation for their support, which I believe to be impossible.  And you're not going to change your position unless I, do what exactly?

The moral foundation is well established.  We live in societies that have the right to act to prevent harm.  If the abolition of IP laws is believed to be harmful, society has every right to protect itself by creating and enforcing IP laws.

The only real issue is whether or not society is justified in believing that removal of IP laws would cause harm.

legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
October 19, 2011, 04:36:15 PM
If I go to the trouble, would you even consider changing your position?  Be honest, now.

Are you speaking to me? I won't change my position with regard to works represented by numbers so large that they would never be available to anyone other than the fact that some entity went to the effort to create it.

I was speaking to anyone, really.  Thanks for the honesty.  Ultimately, the morality of IP laws are an irrelevant argument then?  The 'greater good' of the general public is of no concern, even though that is exactly the (official) reason that IP laws presently exist.

This is exactly why I called this entire topic an intellectual circle jerk.  I'm not going to change my opinion, unless you can demonstrate a moral foundation for their support, which I believe to be impossible.  And you're not going to change your position unless I, do what exactly?
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
October 19, 2011, 04:30:15 PM
MoonShadow,

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. 70 years, five notes, etc. We're in agreement.

But somewhere in there is a line that is defensible. It's not 70 years, and it's not five notes.

But if it's defensible, then it's just as defensible as a licensing contract.  If it requires the use of a government monopoly supported business model to exist, it's not defensible.  If copyrights ended after 15 years following the first publication (or patents 15 years after the first product in production or demonstration) then we wouldn't likely be having this debate, simply because it wouldn't be a worthwhile issue.  There would be much more important issues to fight about than the morality of a 15 year long monopoly on copying of published works.  The problem isn't so much that immoral and inconsistant laws exist, nor that there are businesses that exist to take advantage of those laws; but what those laws, when their immorality is left unchallenged, become over time.  Legal weapons to be wielded and expanded by and for the benefit of entrenched businesses.  At the core, this is the reality that you support when you argue in favor of IP laws, of any sort and for any reason.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 19, 2011, 04:27:53 PM
If I go to the trouble, would you even consider changing your position?  Be honest, now.

Are you speaking to me? I won't change my position with regard to works represented by numbers so large that they would never be available to anyone other than the fact that some entity went to the effort to create it.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
October 19, 2011, 04:22:47 PM
Quote
Can you prove which outweighs which? No, you can't.
And you can?
No, I can't. That's fine for me though because I'm not the one advocating the existence of such laws. Since you admittedly can't prove whether intellectual property laws are helpful or harmful, it's irresponsible to advocate them. You're like the religious person that says, "You can't prove God doesn't exist."
You just shot yourself in the foot.  By your argument, since you can't prove that the abrogation of all IP laws would be helpful, then there are no grounds to propose any such an abrogation

I can prove, without much difficulty, that the abrogation of copyright laws would be in the best interests of the public, just based upon the educational aspect of popular culture alone.  There are few, if any, educated supporters of copyright that would contest this position; and most of their arguments are based upon the 'property rights' aspect of considering data to be equal under the law to real physical property.

If I go to the trouble, would you even consider changing your position?  Be honest, now.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 19, 2011, 04:13:53 PM
MoonShadow,

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. 70 years, five notes, etc. We're in agreement.

But somewhere in there is a line that is defensible. It's not 70 years, and it's not five notes.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
October 19, 2011, 04:06:43 PM
103 pages of mental masterbation as two ideological sides talk past each other, neither side willing to consider the position of the other, because they have mutually exclusive principles.

Maybe you as well would like to comment on the following statement by me:

If you wish to address why you believe a particular film would just magically come into being in the absence of those who created it,


By what logic must I address any particular film?  What makes any particular film worthy of support contrary to principles?  Would Spielberg have created E.T., or even developed the wealth and prestige to do so?  Probably not.  Is the particular movie that we know as E.T. worthy of special consideration under the law?  No.  Spielberg's wealth is predicated upon a monopoly on distribution of works, a monopoly enforced by government agency.  This is pretty much what the OWS protestors are protesting, the unjust favor of government of one group over the remainder of the people for unjustifiable (according to the remainder, anyway) special treatment under the law.

Quote

 or wish to address why you believe you can deny compensation to those who put forth a huge effort to make a film, then do so.


I'm not denying them compensation at all.  That's a fallacy.  I, personally, would pay the asking price or simply not see the film.  It's the idea that the producers have the right (in addition to the monopoly provided ability) to deny that others can see the film, or produce derivitive works based upon the film, 70 years after the original copyright holder has died.  As already pointed out, current films don't really depend upon copyright laws for their revenue stream; they largely depend upon contracts.  Steam doesn't even depend upon that, only on the technical difficulty in subverting their system compared to the cost of convience of voluntary participation of users.  Copyright law doesn't substantially affect the first run profitability of a major motion picture, but does on the 'long tail', which limits who can see the film or produce derivitive works of the film, including upon the decendents of the copyright holders themselves who may not have even been born yet.  You never did address Nina Paley's right to freely sell her own magnum opus, which just happened to included modern versions of old blues songs.  Does she not have the right to earn a living as well?

Quote

Either a film exists or it does not. If it does not exist, then nobody is duplicating it. Once the film exists (by virtue of effort), then why can't you respect the individuals who made it, by continuing to enforce a policy that only seeks to prevent others from doing what they never could've done before anyway?


Your concept of IP is narrow.  You assume it comes down to simply copying.  Oftentimes it's not about a direct copy at all, but simply a similarity.  The band that recorded "Under Pressure" sued over five notes that were substantially similar to five notes in "Ice Ice Baby".  They won that suit, even though it came down to five notes.  They did not contend that the songwriter could not have come up with five notes on his own, nor did they contend that his song was substantially similar to theirs, only that they had a copyright on the song, including 'samples'. 

Parodies are protected under free speech, and thus are considered exempt, but producers of parodies get sued under IP laws all the time.  What about all those artists?  Do they not have a right to an honest living?

Quote

In other words, it's physically impossible to duplicate that which does not exist.


Nor is it possible to parody pop culture that does not exist.  Again, your concept of IP is narrow.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 19, 2011, 04:01:03 PM
You're relying on the "because that's the way it is in current law" fallacy again. My recipe may be the thing my restaurant or soda is dependent on, and is thus of great value to me and my company. So why can't I get protection?

So now you're saying that you do want IP laws, but in greater force than already exist?

Or are you saying that if IP laws exist for movies, then they should exist for recipes? That might indeed be a valid question, but it certainly is not an argument against IP laws for movies.

No, I am saying that even with current laws on the books, the application of laws to protect ideas seems arbitrary and inconsistent.

Welcome to the real world. As for arbitrariness, it is unavoidable. You no doubt agree that granting ownership of the number 1 is absurd? And you contend that perhaps granting IP rights to a film which contains tens of billions of pixels is perhaps not unreasonable? Somewhere in there an arbitrary line needs to be drawn based on possibly many factors.

Are you against arbitrariness in all its forms? Because that's ridiculous.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 19, 2011, 03:57:37 PM

None of the above is an argument against the value and utliity of protecting the hard work of others.

It is an argument against the idea that IP laws are the only, or even the best, way for creators to get compensated for their intellectual creations. Also I guess pointing out that the idea of intellectual property is meaningless if no one is willing to pay for it, even if its creation involved over ten years of very rigorous work.

But so? It's still not an argument against the validity of IP laws. And besides, it isn't necessarily an argument demonstrating that IP laws are not the best. Maybe IP laws are the best, maybe they're not.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
October 19, 2011, 03:53:36 PM
You're relying on the "because that's the way it is in current law" fallacy again. My recipe may be the thing my restaurant or soda is dependent on, and is thus of great value to me and my company. So why can't I get protection?

So now you're saying that you do want IP laws, but in greater force than already exist?

Or are you saying that if IP laws exist for movies, then they should exist for recipes? That might indeed be a valid question, but it certainly is not an argument against IP laws for movies.

No, I am saying that even with current laws on the books, the application of laws to protect ideas seems arbitrary and inconsistent.
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