Topic: INTERNET OF COINS ⛓ blockchain freedom (r)evolution ⛓ [ CROWDFUND CLOSED ] - page 36. (Read 69368 times)
March 31, 2017, 12:41:10 PM
This looks promising, decentralize exchange is the future. I wish you all the best.
March 31, 2017, 12:28:38 PM
This is a pretty important detail to have not decided on by this point. I can't see myself investing without a strong claim in writing made by the team on how the extra tokens will be distributed. I was thinking of investing a substantial amount if a non-inflationary solution were to be implemented regarding this concern.
I agree, and we have the interests of all participants in high regard. We'll provide that claim after the weekend here and on the site as well, giving the team a moment to weigh in. Communication currently has some delay, as we're working from multiple continents at the moment. You are already registered as an Early Bird, so the same fee would apply. March 30, 2017, 04:54:02 PM
Q: My question was aiming at something different. Im not concerned with the gap between the max of 900k tokens sold per chain and the remaining 100k, which are to be issued over the next few years. I'm concerned with e.g. if e.g. only 9k tokens are sold for e.g. NXT. Then are you only going to issue 9k (10k) hybrid on NXT, or will you issue 900k (1M), in which case how will those extra tokens be distributed? That's a major inflationary concern at the moment, since only ~215k hybrid have been sold out of a possible 6.3M (7M)
A proper concern, and something we are also looking at. We'd like to see the amounts of HYBRID on different chains to be synchronous as planned originally, i.e. 1M per chain. In this first emission of HYBRID, it could be that not all tokens are sold, and for this situation we are thinking of distributing the rest of the tokens among current HYBRID holders, so everyone receives the adequate percentage belonging to his/her participation in the marketcap the crowdfund has created.
This is a pretty important detail to have not decided on by this point. I can't see myself investing without a strong claim in writing made by the team on how the extra tokens will be distributed. I was thinking of investing a substantial amount if a non-inflationary solution were to be implemented regarding this concern.
March 30, 2017, 02:35:59 AM
Q: So this is what I understand, and please correct me if it's off: it seems to me that when the allocator fee is included, the exchange rate need not be 1:1 for hybrid living on different chains. It's (1+fee1 : 1+fee2), which amounts to a floating exchange rate set by market forces. This makes economic sens as a way liquidity can be provided, but also means that the hybrid on each chain are effectively different currencies, in the sense that they would be priced separately on any std exchange (e.g. Poloniex), and there's no reason their prices would need to be close to the same as one another.
I see that this arbitrage could exist (and hence correct for) price mismatches between Hybrid(XCP) vs Hybrid(ETH) as existing via IOC swap vs as implied by those prices and the ETH:XCP prices on exchanges. What I don't see is that this forces the price of Hybrid(XCP) : Hybrid(ETH) to stay close to 1. I.e. as long as prices are consistent (but possibly different from 1) then no arbitrage will be possible. The price would have to be close to 1 if the IoC coinswap could guarantee liquidity at that price, but again I dont see how it could do that without market-based fees, which effectively is equivalent to a floating price, not a fixed price of 1.
There is a slight float. Our system creates the orderbooks automatically, and keeps prices as close to 1:1 as possible, and limits the possibility to go too far beyond that. For that we are using a covariance algorithm to predict differences in the portfolio of HYBRID's users are holding. We will be going towards using Nash's equilibrium with our mathematician to put a more advanced prediction model into the balancing algorithm.
Q: Hence this is a potential source of inflation for hybrid holders, yes? I.e. if you increase the hybrid supply to add a new coin and make that hybrid exchangeable wrt the existing hybrid.
Without funding the new emission it is an inflation. We will not add non-funded emissions to HYBRID, however, so technically it is not an inflation in that it decreases vested token value.
Q: WIthout issuing new tokens, this would be inflation-free
That is correct.
Q: My question was aiming at something different. Im not concerned with the gap between the max of 900k tokens sold per chain and the remaining 100k, which are to be issued over the next few years. I'm concerned with e.g. if e.g. only 9k tokens are sold for e.g. NXT. Then are you only going to issue 9k (10k) hybrid on NXT, or will you issue 900k (1M), in which case how will those extra tokens be distributed? That's a major inflationary concern at the moment, since only ~215k hybrid have been sold out of a possible 6.3M (7M)
A proper concern, and something we are also looking at. We'd like to see the amounts of HYBRID on different chains to be synchronous as planned originally, i.e. 1M per chain. In this first emission of HYBRID, it could be that not all tokens are sold, and for this situation we are thinking of distributing the rest of the tokens among current HYBRID holders, so everyone receives the adequate percentage belonging to his/her participation in the marketcap the crowdfund has created.
I see that this arbitrage could exist (and hence correct for) price mismatches between Hybrid(XCP) vs Hybrid(ETH) as existing via IOC swap vs as implied by those prices and the ETH:XCP prices on exchanges. What I don't see is that this forces the price of Hybrid(XCP) : Hybrid(ETH) to stay close to 1. I.e. as long as prices are consistent (but possibly different from 1) then no arbitrage will be possible. The price would have to be close to 1 if the IoC coinswap could guarantee liquidity at that price, but again I dont see how it could do that without market-based fees, which effectively is equivalent to a floating price, not a fixed price of 1.
There is a slight float. Our system creates the orderbooks automatically, and keeps prices as close to 1:1 as possible, and limits the possibility to go too far beyond that. For that we are using a covariance algorithm to predict differences in the portfolio of HYBRID's users are holding. We will be going towards using Nash's equilibrium with our mathematician to put a more advanced prediction model into the balancing algorithm.
Q: Hence this is a potential source of inflation for hybrid holders, yes? I.e. if you increase the hybrid supply to add a new coin and make that hybrid exchangeable wrt the existing hybrid.
Without funding the new emission it is an inflation. We will not add non-funded emissions to HYBRID, however, so technically it is not an inflation in that it decreases vested token value.
Q: WIthout issuing new tokens, this would be inflation-free
That is correct.
Q: My question was aiming at something different. Im not concerned with the gap between the max of 900k tokens sold per chain and the remaining 100k, which are to be issued over the next few years. I'm concerned with e.g. if e.g. only 9k tokens are sold for e.g. NXT. Then are you only going to issue 9k (10k) hybrid on NXT, or will you issue 900k (1M), in which case how will those extra tokens be distributed? That's a major inflationary concern at the moment, since only ~215k hybrid have been sold out of a possible 6.3M (7M)
A proper concern, and something we are also looking at. We'd like to see the amounts of HYBRID on different chains to be synchronous as planned originally, i.e. 1M per chain. In this first emission of HYBRID, it could be that not all tokens are sold, and for this situation we are thinking of distributing the rest of the tokens among current HYBRID holders, so everyone receives the adequate percentage belonging to his/her participation in the marketcap the crowdfund has created.
March 29, 2017, 03:41:49 PM
@agent725, thanks for continuing to reply. It's essential that I understand this better before forking over any serious investment in this project.
My replies are below in bold.
My replies are below in bold.
Answers to @Winslow's questions:
Q: How can a 1:1 swap be enforced AND liquidity be maintained? If the market were to net want to swap hybrid on one chain for another, and the exchange rate of 1:1 is imposed, where does the liquidity come from so that all those who want to swap can swap?
We create liquidity on 1:1 swaps by letting allocators earn a fee on every swarm transaction they are part of. So technically this makes a swap 1:0.99 for a user switching chains, with 0.01 going to the allocator swarm. We want to make sure swapping chains is always done for a reason, and supports the network. Bitcoin transactions work in a similar way, and also have a fee.
So this is what I understand, and please correct me if it's off: it seems to me that when the allocator fee is included, the exchange rate need not be 1:1 for hybrid living on different chains. It's (1+fee1 : 1+fee2), which amounts to a floating exchange rate set by market forces. This makes economic sens as a way liquidity can be provided, but also means that the hybrid on each chain are effectively different currencies, in the sense that they would be priced separately on any std exchange (e.g. Poloniex), and there's no reason their prices would need to be close to the same as one another.
Q: What are the specific trades that can be made to instantiate the arbitrage?
For arbitrage, a trader would have to make use of an exchange in combination with Internet of Coins swaps. For instance, to arbitrage on HYBRID part ETH vs XCP, the traders sells HYBRID for ETH on EtherDelta, sends that to an exchange (centralized or decentralized), and trades it for XCP there. Then the trader sends it to the CounterParty DEX and buys HYBRID. The circle is complete. However, this will only be done in case of large price imbalance between chains. Otherwise, the arbitrage trader cannot make profit on this.
I see that this arbitrage could exist (and hence correct for) price mismatches between Hybrid(XCP) vs Hybrid(ETH) as existing via IOC swap vs as implied by those prices and the ETH:XCP prices on exchanges. What I don't see is that this forces the price of Hybrid(XCP) : Hybrid(ETH) to stay close to 1. I.e. as long as prices are consistent (but possibly different from 1) then no arbitrage will be possible. The price would have to be close to 1 if the IoC coinswap could guarantee liquidity at that price, but again I dont see how it could do that without market-based fees, which effectively is equivalent to a floating price, not a fixed price of 1.
Q: How many HYBRID tokens will be added per new crypto? If any, how are they to be sold and to whom do the revenues from the sales go? Or maybe you mean no new HYBRID tokens will be issued, i.e. there will always be 7M? But then how would other chains be included within IOC's weave-based DEX?
We don't just add HYBRID to every crypto. We add the chain system that have their own token/asset system. Per system this would be 1M tokens. We would make these fungible either by proof-of-burn or organizing a sale. Any additional proceeds would go to the NLnet foundation to make sure they are used for further development.
Hence this is a potential source of inflation for hybrid holders, yes? I.e. if you increase the hybrid supply to add a new coin and make that hybrid exchangeable wrt the existing hybrid.
For a lot of cryptocurrencies, however, we can use methods next to HYBRID for swaps, like for example atomic transactions.
WIthout issuing new tokens, this would be inflation-free
Q: What happens if less than 900k tokens are sold on a chain? Are 1M still issued, and if so how are they allocated?
Most likely we would issue the last 100k by finding someone willing to fund them, or emit them in a slow sale. We will vote on that when we add another chain system.
My question was aiming at something different. Im not concerned with the gap between the max of 900k tokens sold per chain and the remaining 100k, which are to be issued over the next few years. I'm concerned with e.g. if e.g. only 9k tokens are sold for e.g. NXT. Then are you only going to issue 9k (10k) hybrid on NXT, or will you issue 900k (1M), in which case how will those extra tokens be distributed? That's a major inflationary concern at the moment, since only ~215k hybrid have been sold out of a possible 6.3M (7M).
Q: How can a 1:1 swap be enforced AND liquidity be maintained? If the market were to net want to swap hybrid on one chain for another, and the exchange rate of 1:1 is imposed, where does the liquidity come from so that all those who want to swap can swap?
We create liquidity on 1:1 swaps by letting allocators earn a fee on every swarm transaction they are part of. So technically this makes a swap 1:0.99 for a user switching chains, with 0.01 going to the allocator swarm. We want to make sure swapping chains is always done for a reason, and supports the network. Bitcoin transactions work in a similar way, and also have a fee.
So this is what I understand, and please correct me if it's off: it seems to me that when the allocator fee is included, the exchange rate need not be 1:1 for hybrid living on different chains. It's (1+fee1 : 1+fee2), which amounts to a floating exchange rate set by market forces. This makes economic sens as a way liquidity can be provided, but also means that the hybrid on each chain are effectively different currencies, in the sense that they would be priced separately on any std exchange (e.g. Poloniex), and there's no reason their prices would need to be close to the same as one another.
Q: What are the specific trades that can be made to instantiate the arbitrage?
For arbitrage, a trader would have to make use of an exchange in combination with Internet of Coins swaps. For instance, to arbitrage on HYBRID part ETH vs XCP, the traders sells HYBRID for ETH on EtherDelta, sends that to an exchange (centralized or decentralized), and trades it for XCP there. Then the trader sends it to the CounterParty DEX and buys HYBRID. The circle is complete. However, this will only be done in case of large price imbalance between chains. Otherwise, the arbitrage trader cannot make profit on this.
I see that this arbitrage could exist (and hence correct for) price mismatches between Hybrid(XCP) vs Hybrid(ETH) as existing via IOC swap vs as implied by those prices and the ETH:XCP prices on exchanges. What I don't see is that this forces the price of Hybrid(XCP) : Hybrid(ETH) to stay close to 1. I.e. as long as prices are consistent (but possibly different from 1) then no arbitrage will be possible. The price would have to be close to 1 if the IoC coinswap could guarantee liquidity at that price, but again I dont see how it could do that without market-based fees, which effectively is equivalent to a floating price, not a fixed price of 1.
Q: How many HYBRID tokens will be added per new crypto? If any, how are they to be sold and to whom do the revenues from the sales go? Or maybe you mean no new HYBRID tokens will be issued, i.e. there will always be 7M? But then how would other chains be included within IOC's weave-based DEX?
We don't just add HYBRID to every crypto. We add the chain system that have their own token/asset system. Per system this would be 1M tokens. We would make these fungible either by proof-of-burn or organizing a sale. Any additional proceeds would go to the NLnet foundation to make sure they are used for further development.
Hence this is a potential source of inflation for hybrid holders, yes? I.e. if you increase the hybrid supply to add a new coin and make that hybrid exchangeable wrt the existing hybrid.
For a lot of cryptocurrencies, however, we can use methods next to HYBRID for swaps, like for example atomic transactions.
WIthout issuing new tokens, this would be inflation-free
Q: What happens if less than 900k tokens are sold on a chain? Are 1M still issued, and if so how are they allocated?
Most likely we would issue the last 100k by finding someone willing to fund them, or emit them in a slow sale. We will vote on that when we add another chain system.
My question was aiming at something different. Im not concerned with the gap between the max of 900k tokens sold per chain and the remaining 100k, which are to be issued over the next few years. I'm concerned with e.g. if e.g. only 9k tokens are sold for e.g. NXT. Then are you only going to issue 9k (10k) hybrid on NXT, or will you issue 900k (1M), in which case how will those extra tokens be distributed? That's a major inflationary concern at the moment, since only ~215k hybrid have been sold out of a possible 6.3M (7M).
March 29, 2017, 12:03:26 PM
Hi scrimper. I this vid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hucm3y4sms) it gets explained with an example.
thx for this link, this was understandable. i think this is a very interesting project, i hope this will get a lot of attention and it will be useful in the future. i have bought some hybrids
March 28, 2017, 08:46:05 PM
Answers to @Winslow's questions:
Q: How can a 1:1 swap be enforced AND liquidity be maintained? If the market were to net want to swap hybrid on one chain for another, and the exchange rate of 1:1 is imposed, where does the liquidity come from so that all those who want to swap can swap?
We create liquidity on 1:1 swaps by letting allocators earn a fee on every swarm transaction they are part of. So technically this makes a swap 1:0.99 for a user switching chains, with 0.01 going to the allocator swarm. We want to make sure swapping chains is always done for a reason, and supports the network. Bitcoin transactions work in a similar way, and also have a fee.
Q: What are the specific trades that can be made to instantiate the arbitrage?
For arbitrage, a trader would have to make use of an exchange in combination with Internet of Coins swaps. For instance, to arbitrage on HYBRID part ETH vs XCP, the traders sells HYBRID for ETH on EtherDelta, sends that to an exchange (centralized or decentralized), and trades it for XCP there. Then the trader sends it to the CounterParty DEX and buys HYBRID. The circle is complete. However, this will only be done in case of large price imbalance between chains. Otherwise, the arbitrage trader cannot make profit on this.
Q: How many HYBRID tokens will be added per new crypto? If any, how are they to be sold and to whom do the revenues from the sales go? Or maybe you mean no new HYBRID tokens will be issued, i.e. there will always be 7M? But then how would other chains be included within IOC's weave-based DEX?
We don't just add HYBRID to every crypto. We add the chain system that have their own token/asset system. Per system this would be 1M tokens. We would make these fungible either by proof-of-burn or organizing a sale. Any additional proceeds would go to the NLnet foundation to make sure they are used for further development.
For a lot of cryptocurrencies, however, we can use methods next to HYBRID for swaps, like for example atomic transactions.
Q: What happens if less than 900k tokens are sold on a chain? Are 1M still issued, and if so how are they allocated?
Most likely we would issue the last 100k by finding someone willing to fund them, or emit them in a slow sale. We will vote on that when we add another chain system.
Q: How can a 1:1 swap be enforced AND liquidity be maintained? If the market were to net want to swap hybrid on one chain for another, and the exchange rate of 1:1 is imposed, where does the liquidity come from so that all those who want to swap can swap?
We create liquidity on 1:1 swaps by letting allocators earn a fee on every swarm transaction they are part of. So technically this makes a swap 1:0.99 for a user switching chains, with 0.01 going to the allocator swarm. We want to make sure swapping chains is always done for a reason, and supports the network. Bitcoin transactions work in a similar way, and also have a fee.
Q: What are the specific trades that can be made to instantiate the arbitrage?
For arbitrage, a trader would have to make use of an exchange in combination with Internet of Coins swaps. For instance, to arbitrage on HYBRID part ETH vs XCP, the traders sells HYBRID for ETH on EtherDelta, sends that to an exchange (centralized or decentralized), and trades it for XCP there. Then the trader sends it to the CounterParty DEX and buys HYBRID. The circle is complete. However, this will only be done in case of large price imbalance between chains. Otherwise, the arbitrage trader cannot make profit on this.
Q: How many HYBRID tokens will be added per new crypto? If any, how are they to be sold and to whom do the revenues from the sales go? Or maybe you mean no new HYBRID tokens will be issued, i.e. there will always be 7M? But then how would other chains be included within IOC's weave-based DEX?
We don't just add HYBRID to every crypto. We add the chain system that have their own token/asset system. Per system this would be 1M tokens. We would make these fungible either by proof-of-burn or organizing a sale. Any additional proceeds would go to the NLnet foundation to make sure they are used for further development.
For a lot of cryptocurrencies, however, we can use methods next to HYBRID for swaps, like for example atomic transactions.
Q: What happens if less than 900k tokens are sold on a chain? Are 1M still issued, and if so how are they allocated?
Most likely we would issue the last 100k by finding someone willing to fund them, or emit them in a slow sale. We will vote on that when we add another chain system.
March 28, 2017, 07:50:30 PM
I bought in as soon as the ICO opened because I liked the idea of a decentralized marketplace but I do have some questions.
Thanks for your participation What happens if less than 900k tokens are sold on a chain? Are 1M still issued, and if so how are they allocated?
Agent725 will incorporate this in his answer. This concerns inflation as well. After XEM or Waves die what will happen to the ppl holding the hybrid on those platforms
Nothing happens if a currency crashes, they are not linked. If an assetplatform is lost (like Omni) than any asset used there will suffer the consequences of course. If you do not want hybrids on a specific platform, send us an e-mail (info@) and we'll allocate your hybrids to the ones of your choice of the 7 platforms.Hi Coinstorm team,
It is my understanding from the Florincoin [ANN] thread that there is a request to work with the Florincoin team on some functionality. Perhaps it would make sense to start with integrating FLO into the multiwallet.
I would like to reach out to open communication between your team and ours because collaboration could lead to the betterment of both projects in the future.
With kind regards,
Metacoin
Hi Metacoin, I know Matthias (szenekonzept) has sent out a request for development teams to sign up for cooperation at a later stage, assuming you're referring to that.It is my understanding from the Florincoin [ANN] thread that there is a request to work with the Florincoin team on some functionality. Perhaps it would make sense to start with integrating FLO into the multiwallet.
I would like to reach out to open communication between your team and ours because collaboration could lead to the betterment of both projects in the future.
With kind regards,
Metacoin
Right now, we are; running alphatest for basics with the ecovillages initiative; setting up the wallet for the assets of the crowdfund; daily working an the campaign.
So you can check the wiki for some developer documentation, test the processor on GitHub, and I saw user gramen already made a recipe for Florincoin in this thread (cool!). The IoC teams first focus will be on the integration of the asset platforms used in the crowdfund, so all participants can use it to manage their new assets. Send me your e-mail address and I'll invite you to the Slack channel so you and our devs can talk further
March 28, 2017, 01:32:58 PM
Hi Coinstorm team,
It is my understanding from the Florincoin [ANN] thread that there is a request to work with the Florincoin team on some functionality. Perhaps it would make sense to start with integrating FLO into the multiwallet.
I would like to reach out to open communication between your team and ours because collaboration could lead to the betterment of both projects in the future.
With kind regards,
Metacoin
It is my understanding from the Florincoin [ANN] thread that there is a request to work with the Florincoin team on some functionality. Perhaps it would make sense to start with integrating FLO into the multiwallet.
I would like to reach out to open communication between your team and ours because collaboration could lead to the betterment of both projects in the future.
With kind regards,
Metacoin
March 28, 2017, 04:43:28 AM
The technical issue has been fixed and the crowdfund form is open for donations.
Kind regards,
AmmO - Internet of Coins team
Kind regards,
AmmO - Internet of Coins team
March 28, 2017, 02:36:03 AM
Hi, I'll reply on all of you later today. Currently we are fixing a technical issue
March 28, 2017, 01:21:00 AM
After XEM or Waves die what will happen to the ppl holding the hybrid on those platforms
March 28, 2017, 01:17:18 AM
That looks good to get tokens at a price of $0.95, a lessen price of 5% from the token price and a 10% return is quoted on crowdfunding seems good but an early investment similar to 10btc is simply high.
The high investment is why they're getting the 5% off, for taking such a large risk on a new coin. Because of the risks you said, there was a only a handful of people who got the early bird special.
March 28, 2017, 12:29:38 AM
That looks good to get tokens at a price of $0.95, a lessen price of 5% from the token price and a 10% return is quoted on crowdfunding seems good but an early investment similar to 10btc is simply high.
March 27, 2017, 07:40:22 PM
What happens if less than 900k tokens are sold on a chain? Are 1M still issued, and if so how are they allocated?
March 27, 2017, 02:55:00 PM
Hi scrimper. I this vid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hucm3y4sms) it gets explained with an example.
March 27, 2017, 01:35:26 PM
can someone explain me in simple example how this works? thx 
March 27, 2017, 07:15:06 AM
I bought in as soon as the ICO opened because I liked the idea of a decentralized marketplace but I do have some questions.
Is the IOC tradable for a currency? i.e I could spend .1 BTC to buy 1 IOC if that was the agreed upon rate?
The plan is that the IOC will be 1:1 across blockchains, but then wouldn't that mean that the underlying blockchain would implicitly make the IOC redundant. What I mean by this is if someone buys an IOC with BTC, as given in the example above, then switched that Bitcoin IOC for an Ethereum IOC, then traded that Ethereum IOC for regular Ethereum, the transfer rate would be the same as buying Ethereum with Bitcoin right? Otherwise there would be arbitrage in the system.
So due to this, IOC's role seems to be to just provide a decentralized exchange, instead of centralized ones we have now like Poloniex. The system will make money based on the trading fees, which it will distribute in various ways including miners that have the hardware nodes.
Thus, my main question is how does the IOC coin itself appreciate in value if it's fixed at that 1:1 rate. To me, it seems that any profit could only arise from arbitrage or just paying less fees to switch cryptocurrencies.
I'm still new to this (been less than 3 months) so please correct me if I'm wrong somewhere in my reasoning and if not, then how IOC the coin itself will appreciate in value.
Is the IOC tradable for a currency? i.e I could spend .1 BTC to buy 1 IOC if that was the agreed upon rate?
The plan is that the IOC will be 1:1 across blockchains, but then wouldn't that mean that the underlying blockchain would implicitly make the IOC redundant. What I mean by this is if someone buys an IOC with BTC, as given in the example above, then switched that Bitcoin IOC for an Ethereum IOC, then traded that Ethereum IOC for regular Ethereum, the transfer rate would be the same as buying Ethereum with Bitcoin right? Otherwise there would be arbitrage in the system.
So due to this, IOC's role seems to be to just provide a decentralized exchange, instead of centralized ones we have now like Poloniex. The system will make money based on the trading fees, which it will distribute in various ways including miners that have the hardware nodes.
Thus, my main question is how does the IOC coin itself appreciate in value if it's fixed at that 1:1 rate. To me, it seems that any profit could only arise from arbitrage or just paying less fees to switch cryptocurrencies.
I'm still new to this (been less than 3 months) so please correct me if I'm wrong somewhere in my reasoning and if not, then how IOC the coin itself will appreciate in value.
March 26, 2017, 05:49:42 PM
What is the schedule of your price increasing? I see a chart, but cannot make out the exact day.. 
Regular buys upgrade automatically next: 2017-03-28: $1.25 per HYBRID.I'll update the Terms schedule to reflect the exact dates.
@Winslow Strong; asked Agent725 to write an explanation about our inflation mechanism and counter.
March 26, 2017, 07:02:42 AM
What is the schedule of your price increasing? I see a chart, but cannot make out the exact day..
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