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Topic: Intervention Theory: An alternative to Darwinism and Creationism - page 5. (Read 9473 times)

legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
Was the creation accomplished in 6 days... plus a following day of rest?

From the standpoint of our simple determinations, we do not know because we were not there, and there are way too many things that could have happened that are way beyond our ability to determine.

For example. The whole plan of the universe existed in the mind of God "before" He started creation. Since God used a tiny amount of His great strength to create the universe, the fact that plants were created before the sun, moon, and stars... and the fact that the 24-hour day existed before the scribing of the planetary action by which we understand the 24-hour day... shows that God's power carried everything just as He had it written down in the Bible, no matter how we want to delude ourselves into thinking things happened.

Cool

Yet by the same logic is it not possible that events occurred as written in Genesis but human understanding is simply incapable of fully grasping them? Perhaps we were given knowledge that is true yet simplified to a level that enabled us to have some basic understanding of a process that is simply beyond us? We had a discussion along these lines earlier.


I always liked how God created light on the first day, and the sun and stars (which make the light, and the 24-hr day) on day 4...  That's quite a magic trick!

...

If I were God... I'd probably create the sun, stars and light all at the same time... and then I'd create plants afterwards... but that's just me... perhaps I'm smarter than God... perhaps a 5th grader could tell you that you can't create light before stars...

You can't create light before stars... are you sure about that?



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_the_universe
Quote
The early universe, from the Quark epoch to the Photon epoch, or the first 380,000 years of cosmic time, when the familiar forces and elementary particles have emerged but the universe remains in the state of a plasma, followed by the "Dark Ages", from 380,000 years to about 150 million years during which the universe was transparent but no large-scale structures had yet formed

Before decoupling occurred, most of the photons in the universe were interacting with electrons and protons in the photon–baryon fluid. The universe was opaque or "foggy" as a result. There was light but not light we can now observe through telescopes. The baryonic matter in the universe consisted of ionized plasma, and it only became neutral when it gained free electrons during "recombination", thereby releasing the photons creating the CMB. When the photons were released (or decoupled) the universe became transparent.

According to current scientific models there was hundreds of thousands of years of light without stars.

Genesis 1-3:
Quote
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

Perhaps when scientists add all kinds of other theories and ideas, their model will change. They do have some serious science fiction there, or a religion if they believe it in the face of it not having been proven true.

Cool
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
It took a long time for humans to appear Grin..Just remember NO ZAP and we were here..

In the 21st century with new sciences we will discover many things that we once thought so are not so..
But one thing we do know because of science it takes time for things to happen and it's impossible to
Zap a human and a world in 6 days.. Wink..
Even if aliens from another galaxy made the earth it still not gods it's science Wink..

Since the topic of this thread has turned to Judaism in the last few posts here is an opinion from a Jewish Rabbi on this topic.

Was Creation Really Seven Days?
http://www.thejewishweek.com/editorial-opinion/sabbath-week/was-creation-really-seven-days
Quote from: Shlomo Riskin
So why does the Bible express itself in terms of six days of creativity culminating in one day of Sabbath rest [Genesis 2:2]? Why would the Bible utilize the Hebrew word “yom” (day) with any meaning other than a 24-hour period?

The truth is that from the usage of the word “yom” it is possible to conclude the very opposite of the charedi dogma just cited. The Bible is not interested in conveying literal and chronological facts in its story of Creation. After all, the sun and the moon were not created until the fourth day, and it is specifically their movements which are the determinants for our 24-hour day. Beyond any doubt, then, “yom” in the context of the seven days of Creation cannot mean a literal 24-hour day.

Furthermore, Maimonides, in his “Guide for the Perplexed,” interprets all biblical stories until the advent of Abraham as allegories, whose purpose is to convey moral lessons rather than historical fact.

And this certainly leaves the door open to maintain that “One thousand (or one million) years in Your eyes is like one day” [Psalms 90:4]. Each biblical day in the Creation story may well represent an epoch of thousands or millions or years.

Was the creation accomplished in 6 days... plus a following day of rest?

From the standpoint of our simple determinations, we do not know because we were not there, and there are way too many things that could have happened that are way beyond our ability to determine.

For example. The whole plan of the universe existed in the mind of God "before" He started creation. Since God used a tiny amount of His great strength to create the universe, the fact that plants were created before the sun, moon, and stars... and the fact that the 24-hour day existed before the scribing of the planetary action by which we understand the 24-hour day... shows that God's power carried everything just as He had it written down in the Bible, no matter how we want to delude ourselves into thinking things happened.

Cool
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
It took a long time for humans to appear Grin..Just remember NO ZAP and we were here..

In the 21st century with new sciences we will discover many things that we once thought so are not so..
But one thing we do know because of science it takes time for things to happen and it's impossible to
Zap a human and a world in 6 days.. Wink..
Even if aliens from another galaxy made the earth it still not gods it's science Wink..

Since the topic of this thread has turned to Judaism in the last few posts here is an opinion from a Jewish Rabbi on this topic.

Was Creation Really Seven Days?
http://www.thejewishweek.com/editorial-opinion/sabbath-week/was-creation-really-seven-days
Quote from: Shlomo Riskin
So why does the Bible express itself in terms of six days of creativity culminating in one day of Sabbath rest [Genesis 2:2]? Why would the Bible utilize the Hebrew word “yom” (day) with any meaning other than a 24-hour period?

The truth is that from the usage of the word “yom” it is possible to conclude the very opposite of the charedi dogma just cited. The Bible is not interested in conveying literal and chronological facts in its story of Creation. After all, the sun and the moon were not created until the fourth day, and it is specifically their movements which are the determinants for our 24-hour day. Beyond any doubt, then, “yom” in the context of the seven days of Creation cannot mean a literal 24-hour day.

Furthermore, Maimonides, in his “Guide for the Perplexed,” interprets all biblical stories until the advent of Abraham as allegories, whose purpose is to convey moral lessons rather than historical fact.

And this certainly leaves the door open to maintain that “One thousand (or one million) years in Your eyes is like one day” [Psalms 90:4]. Each biblical day in the Creation story may well represent an epoch of thousands or millions or years.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1027
It took a long time for humans to appear Grin..Just remember NO ZAP and we were here..

In the 21st century with new sciences we will discover many things that we once thought so are not so..
But one thing we do know because of science it takes time for things to happen and it's impossible to
Zap a human and a world in 6 days.. Wink..
Even if aliens from another galaxy made the earth it still not gods it's science Wink..
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
I think perhaps it might be helpful to briefly cover what the Torah and the Talmud are.

What's the Difference Between the Torah and the Talmud?
http://www.aish.com/atr/Torah_versus_Talmud.html
Quote
The Aish Rabbi Replies:

The first thing to know is that the Torah consists of two parts: The Written Torah, and the Oral Torah.

The Written Torah totals 24 books, including the Five Books of Moses and the prophetic writings – e.g. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Psalms, Proverbs, etc.

The Five Books of Moses – comprised of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy – was written down by Moses in 1273 BCE, and includes all 613 commandments (mitzvahs)....

(Jews consider it insulting to call it the Old Testament, as this implies a New Testament, which Jews reject.)...

So what is the Oral Torah? Its name derives from the fact that it was not allowed to be formally written down but had to be taught orally. It contains the explanations of the Written Torah...

In 190 CE, persecution and exile of the Jewish people threatened the proper transmission of the Oral Torah. Therefore, Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi compiled written notes on the Oral Torah called the "Mishnah" (Hebrew for "teaching")...

In 500 CE, the Jewish people again suffered an uprooting of their communities, and two Babylonian rabbis – Rav Ashi and Ravina – compiled a 60-volume record of rabbinic discussions on the Mishnah, called the "Gemara." Together, the Mishnah and Gemara comprise what is commonly called the "Talmud."

It is commonly accepted by all Jews that the Talmud or Oral Torah was codified into written form by Rabbis several hundred years following the time of Moses and the Written Torah. This has led to a schism in Judaism over the divine nature of the Oral Torah.

There are some branches of of Judaism such as Karaite Judaism which reject the Oral Torah altogether viewing it as human opinion and therefore not binding. Within Rabbinic Judaism which is far larger than Karaite Judaism disagreement remains between the Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox branches.

Below is a link to the opinion of three Rabbi's one Reform, one Conservative, and one Orthodox on the topic of whether the Talmud (written by Rabbis) carries the same divine authority at the Written Torah.

http://www.jewishvaluesonline.org/37

According to this source it appears the Orthodox are most likely to hold the Talmud as divinely inspired and the Reform movement the least likely.  

Regarding the content of the Talmud itself I cannot comment for I have no knowledge of the topic. However, I have never heard anyone argue that Jesus took his teachings from the Talmud. This would strike me as a hard argument to make given that the aristocratic Jewish elite at the time the Sadducees rejected the Talmud altogether. Regarding unfavorable writings by early Jewish Rabbis towards Christianity is that really a surprise?

Historic Jewish Views on Christianity
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jewish-views-on-christianity/3/  
Quote from: Rabbi Louis Jacobs
In its very earliest days, Christianity was seen by the Jewish teachers as a Jewish heresy; its adherents were Jews who believed in the divinity of Christ [and considered Christianity a Jewish sect]. But when Christianity spread and became a world religion, with numerous converts from the Gentile world, it became a rival religion to Judaism. Christians were then seen as Gentiles not because they were Christians but because, in the main, they were, in fact, Gentiles (i.e. not Jewish).

Rabbinic Attitudes
In the Talmud and midrash, the comparatively few references to Christianity (these only appear in uncensored versions) are to this religion as a heretical sect believing in a form of dualism, God the Father and God the Son... It was not until the Middle Ages that the status of Christianity (and of Islam) as a rival religion was considered from the Jewish point of view.

Medieval Attitudes
Attacks on Christian dogma are found in medieval Jewish writings from the biblical commentaries of Rashi and [David] Kimhi, refuting the Christian claim that the Old Testament contains prophesies anticipating the coming of Jesus... on the grounds that God, being God, can as little become human as He can wish Himself out of existence...

In these and similar works the main thrust was to deny that the Messiah had come in the person of Jesus (the world gave no evidence that this glorious age had arrived, it was frequently protested) and especially to take issue with the doctrine of the Incarnation and the Trinity...The medieval thinkers who held Christianity but not Islam to be an idolatrous faith did so particularly because of the worship of the Cross; to bow before an icon or a crucifix was held to be akin to bowing to idols...

Menahem Meiri [a thirteenth-century talmudist]... argued that the references to pagans in the talmudic literature could not apply to what he called “people whose lives are governed by religion.” Eventually, a distinction was made, unknown in the talmudic sources, according to which Christianity did constitute idolatry for Jews but not “for them” (i.e. Christians). A Christian did not offend against the Noahide laws [the seven principles, including the rejection of idolatry, by which Judaism expects non-Jews to live] since the Torah allows a Gentile, but not a Jew, to worship another being in addition to God.

This concept was known as shittuf (“association,” of another together with God) and the oft‑quoted legal maxim, allowing for a more liberal attitude towards Christians, is: “A Noahide is not enjoined to reject shittuf.”...

Modern Attitudes
In modern times there has been far greater cooperation between Jews and Christians, many Jews welcoming Jewish‑Christian dialogues in which the aim of each side is to understand the position of the other, and even learn from it, without in any way moving from its own. Some Jews believe that Judaism and Christianity have so much in common that it is permissible to speak of a Jewish-Christian tradition...

A single contemporary Orthodox Jewish theologian in the US has argued that Judaism does not oblige Jews to reject the doctrine of the incarnation as impossible in itself. For him, Jews reject Christianity not because God could not have become incarnate in a human being, since that would compromise God’s omnipotence, but because, in fact, He did not do so in the person of Jesus.

This eccentric view is rejected by all other Jewish theologians on the grounds that God, being God, can as little become human as He can wish Himself out of existence.

It would certainly be incorrect to say that the suspicions of the two religions of one another are a thing of the past. What can be said is that, in an age of greater religious tolerance, there has been a growing realization that the two have enough in common to enable them to work in harmony for human betterment.

Edit: Here is an interesting little video that goes over the differences between Rabbinic and Karaite Judaism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRb7DhWS6Z8&list=PLhG1viERKhXfnbaJp2JlphCVX3OvewpFp
hero member
Activity: 636
Merit: 505
Quoting further from this important material:

The truth about the Talmud and how it relates to Christians is a must-read; I am quoting from Chapter 4:
http://phoenixsourcedistributors.com/html/j025/

The United States Supreme Court has recognized the “secondary meaning” of words. The highest court in the land has established as basic law that “secondary meanings” can acquire priority rights to the use of any dictionary word. Well-planned and well-financed world-wide publicity through every available media by well-organized groups of so-called or self-styled “Jews” for three centuries has created a “secondary meaning” for the word “Jew” which has completely “blacked out” the original and correct meaning of the word “Jew”. There can be no doubt about that.

There is not one person in the whole English-speaking world today who regards a “Jew” as a “Judean” in the literal sense of the word. That was the correct and only meaning in the 18th century. The generally accepted “secondary meaning” of the word “Jew” today with practically no exceptions is made up of four almost universally-believed theories. These four theories are that a so-called or self-styled “Jew” is (1) a person who today professes the form of religious worship known as “Judaism”, (2) a person who claims to belong to a racial group associated with the ancient Semites, (3) a person directly the descendant of an ancient nation which thrived in Palestine in Bible history, (4) a person blessed by Divine intentional design with certain superior cultural characteristics denied to other racial, religious or national groups, all rolled into one.

The present generally accepted “secondary meaning” of the word “Jew” is fundamentally responsible for the confusion in the minds of Christians regarding elementary tenets of the Christian faith. It is likewise responsible today to a very great extent for the dilution of the devotion of countless Christians for their Christian faith.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
Apparently the 613 rules the Jews must abide, require them to use honest weights and measures:

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Thus the fractional reserve banksters such as Soros,Rothschilds etc are not religious Jews (even they claim to descend from Jews or took up the label as a Jew), as admitted by Soros in that 60 Minutes video (banned by YouTube now) in which he had admitted he isn't religious.

Probably the reason the Jews have these strict laws is they are trying to preserve their cultural homogeneity as their group evolutionary strategy. I know from my own experience, that if you intermarry into another culture, you take on all the baggage of that other culture. Yet qwik2learn may have a point, that like most organized religions, it may be another corruption (and yet that may be complementary with an effective K group evolutionary strategy for average males).

It is interesting to note the Torah allows the man to divorce his wife for any reason instantly with a signed declaration. She can then remarry. But the (New Testament at least of) Bible says that that once a man and woman bond in the flesh, they are one and let no man undo what God hath done. It is that rule that I found impossible for me since I had already violated it more than several times. I tried to start following that rule when I came closer to Christianity circa 2006 but I found it just caused me to lie to myself. I think it denies natural pressures to pursue an R evolutionary strategy by default in the absence of any strong cultural heritage and family purpose disincentivizing a male from doing do so. We are given a situation in life, and we can't always choose to be in another situation thus the strategies which are available and compatible with others may not be available to others. But I do understand there is a distinction between an alphamale R evolutionary strategy who deposits his semen for betamales to raise his offspring (e.g. Genghis Khan) and a betamale K group evolutionary strategy which is greatly aided by religion. You've got to limit those alphamales because too much R strategy can cause the society to malfunction. We need some R strategy to improve the gene pool, but it must be highly difficult and competitive. (Note I am not claiming I was trying to father children which I didn't take care of, nor saying I did this.)

I am still not sure where I fit into all this. I am just writing down observations. And trying to sort in my mind what my value system is and should be w.r.t. to group evolutionary strategy and my evolutionary strategy for my genes.

Edit: to expound a bit. In my case, I think it is the case wherein when your father abandons you and/or doesn't provide any culture you want to emulate, you don't really have a strong natural inclination to follow a K strategy, because afaics K strategy bonds are driven significantly (if not entirely) by the extension of the family tree and heritage and the emotions and pride that plays into that. This is why I understand why the Jewish faith doesn't allow intermarriage with goyim (who haven't converted) because the heritage of your culture and the religion that holds the families together can be easily polluted and lost. In my case, it is very difficult to form a new culture or family heritage all by myself. I have to take on the identity and heritage of the family I am marrying into, which didn't work out well for me to say the least. Lol.
hero member
Activity: 636
Merit: 505
Religious worship known and practiced today under the name “Judaism” by so-called or self-styled “Jews” throughout the world was known and practiced in Judea in the time of Jesus under the name “Pharisaism” according to Rabbi Louis Finkelstein, head of The Jewish Theological Seminary of America, and all the other most competent and qualified recognized authorities on the subject.

The form of religious worship known as “Pharisaism” in Judea in the time of Jesus was a religious practice based exclusively upon the Talmud. The Talmud in the time of Jesus was the Magna Charta, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, all rolled into one, of those who practiced “Pharisaism”. The Talmud today occupies the same relative position with respect to those who profess “Judaism”. The Talmud today virtually exercises totalitarian dictatorship over the lives of so-called or self-styled “Jews” whether they are aware of that fact or not. Their spiritual leaders make no attempt to conceal the control they exercise over the lives of so-called or self-styled “Jews”. They extend their authority far beyond the legitimate limits of spiritual matters. Their authority has no equal outside religion.

The eminent Rabbi Louis Finkelstein, the head of the The Jewish Theological Seminary of America, often referred to as the “The Vatican of Judaism”, in his Forward to his First Edition of this world-famous classic “The Pharisees, The Sociological Background of Their Faith”, on page XXI states:

“. . .Judaism. . .Pharisaism became Talmudism, Talmudism became Medieval Rabbinism, and Medieval Rabbinism became Modern Rabbinism. But throughout these changes in name. . .the spirit of the ancient Pharisees survives, unaltered. . .From Palestine to Babylonia; from Babylonia to North Africa, Italy, Spain, France and Germany; from these to Poland, Russia, and eastern Europe generally, ancient Pharisaism has wandered. . .demonstrates the enduring importance which attaches to Pharisaism as a religious movement. . .”

In case you have never had the opportunity to investigate the contents of the “63 books” of the Talmud so well summarized by Rabbi Morris N. Kertzer in his illuminating article “What is a Jew”, previously quoted, may I here impose upon your precious time and quote a few passages for you until you find the time to conveniently investigate the Talmud’s contents personally. If I can be of any assistance to you in doing so please do not hesitate to let me know in what manner you can use my help.

From the Birth of Jesus until this day there have never been recorded more vicious and vile libelous blasphemies of Jesus, of Christians and the Christian faith by anyone, anywhere, or anytime than you will find between the covers of the infamous “63 books” which are “the legal code which forms the basis of Jewish religious law” as well as the “textbook used in the training of rabbis”. The explicit and implicit irreligious character and implications of the contents of the Talmud will open your eyes as they have never been opened before. The Talmud reviles Jesus, Christians and the Christian faith as the priceless spiritual and cultural heritage of Christians has never been reviled before or since the Talmud was completed in the 5th century. You will have to excuse the foul, obscene, indecent, lewd and vile language you will see here as verbatim quotations from the official unabridged translation of the Talmud into English. BE PREPARED FOR A SURPRISE.

The Soncino Edition of the Talmud with its footnotes is like a double-edged sword. It teaches the Talmud to countless millions of the younger generation of so-called or self-styled “Jews” who are not able to read the Talmud in the many ancient languages in which the Talmud was written by its authors between 200 B.C. and 500 A.D. It also teaches Christians what the Talmud has to say about Jesus, about Christians and about the Christian faith. Someday this is bound to back-fire. Christians will some day challenge the assertion that the Talmud is the “sort of book” from which Jesus allegedly “drew the teachings which enabled him to revolutionize the world” on “moral and religious subjects”. The rumbling is already heard in places.

Before giving any more verbatim quotations from the “sort of book” from which it is falsely alleged Jesus “drew the teachings which enable him to revolutionize the world” on “moral and religious subjects” I wish to here again recall to your attention the official statement by Rabbi Morris N. Kertzer in Look Magazine for June 17, 1952. In that official statement made by Rabbi Morris N. Kertzer on behalf of the American Jewish Committee, self-styled “The Vatican of Judaism”, informed the 20,000,000 readers of Look magazine that the Talmud “IS THE LEGAL CODE WHICH FORMS THE BASIS OF JEWISH RELIGIOUS LAW AND IT IS THE TEXTBOOK USED IN THE TRAINING OF RABBIS”. Please bear this mind as your read further.

The truth about the Talmud and how it relates to Christians is a must-read; I am quoting from Chapter 4:
http://phoenixsourcedistributors.com/html/j025/
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
My understanding is that the Judaism holds that personal responsibility and the Torah is the way to  achieve true freedom. They view the 10 commandments in particular as necessary restrictions to maintain a free society.

It appears you missed the class on Talmudic Judaism because everything you typed only pertains to Jews dealing with other Jews.  Non-Jews are referred to as "goyim", and are essentially cattle to be used as slaves.

Here they are in a 1 minute clip flat out saying it as usual.  No, this is not even close to a one off; this is the norm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCLtAbULUtw

I would agree that the video you linked to above shows two Jewish men (probably Ultra-Orthodox) who say some rather disturbing things such as:

"All the non Jews in the world exist for the Jews benefit."

There are bigots and racists among all peoples be they Jews, Christians, Muslims, or Others. Even with my, very limited, knowledge of Judaism I am confident in stating that the views expressed by those two (probably drunk) Jews in the video do not accurately represent Judaism as a whole.


Charges Against the Jews

http://archive.adl.org/presrele/asus_12/the_talmud.pdf
Quote
II. The Charges
A. Non-Jews as Non-Human

Probably the most far-reaching claim made by anti-Talmud polemicists is that Judaism
views non-Jews as a subhuman species deserving only hatred and contempt from its
Jewish superiors.

The visceral hatred that Jews are alleged to bear for non-Jews is
proven, they claim, by a variety of statements in the Talmud and by Jewish law itself,
which purportedly encourages Jews to exploit their non-Jewish neighbors and engage in
criminal activities against them. Many go so far as to claim that Jews are intent on
subjugating non-Jews around the world and even on committing genocide against them.

In its long history, Judaism has had its share of bigots, racists and xenophobes, some of
whom expressed their prejudices in religious terms. In certain historical periods there
have even been Jewish sects whose worldview placed Jews higher than non-Jews in
inherent value.
But normative Judaism has never diminished the essential humanity—
and the concomitant holiness, derived from the doctrine of creation in imago Dei—shared
by Jews and non-Jews alike. Based on verses in the biblical verses in Genesis 1:26-28,
the principle that all men and women are created in the image of God is codified in the
Mishnah (Avoth 3:14) and Talmud (Avoth 9b):

[רבי עקיבא] היה אומר: חביב אדם שנברא בצלם. חיבה יתרה נודעת לו שנברא בצלם,
שנאמר (בראשית ט:ו), "כי בצלם אלקים עשה את האדם."
[Rabbi Akiva] used to say, “Beloved is man, for he was created in God’s image; and the
fact that God made it known that man was created in His image is indicative of an even
greater love. As the verse states (Genesis 9:6), ‘In the image of God, man was created.’)”

This doctrine is echoed by one of the great rabbis of the twentieth century, Rabbi Joseph
B. Soloveitchik (Man of Faith in the Modern World, p. 74):

"Even as the Jew is moved by his private Sinaitic Covenant with God to embody
and preserve the teachings of the Torah, he is committed to the belief that all
mankind, of whatever color or creed, is “in His image” and is possessed of an
inherent human dignity and worthiness. Man’s singularity is derived from the
breath “He [God] breathed into his nostrils at the moment of creation” (Genesis
2:7). Thus, we do share in the universal historical experience, and God’s
providential concern does embrace all of humanity."

In the face of these Jewish doctrines expressing concern for men and women of all
religions, the attempts of anti-Semites to portray normative Judaism as bigoted and
hateful are revealed as thorough distortions of Jewish ethics.

Jewish Attitudes Toward Non-Jews

http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm
Quote
Judaism maintains that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. This has been the majority rule since the days of the Talmud. Judaism generally recognizes that Christians and Moslems worship the same G-d that we do and those who follow the tenets of their religions can be considered righteous in the eyes of G-d.

Contrary to popular belief, Judaism does not maintain that Jews are better than other people. Although we refer to ourselves as G-d's chosen people, we do not believe that G-d chose the Jews because of any inherent superiority. According to the Talmud (Avodah Zarah 2b), G-d offered the Torah to all the nations of the earth, and the Jews were the only ones who accepted it. The story goes on to say that the Jews were offered the Torah last, and accepted it only because G-d held a mountain over their heads! (In Ex. 19:17, the words generally translated as "at the foot of the mountain" literally mean "underneath the mountain"!) Another traditional story suggests that G-d chose the Jewish nation because they were the lowliest of nations, and their success would be attributed to G-d's might rather than their own ability. Clearly, these are not the ideas of a people who think they are better than other nations.

Because of our acceptance of Torah, Jews have a special status in the eyes of G-d, but we lose that special status when we abandon Torah. Furthermore, the blessings that we received from G-d by accepting the Torah come with a high price: Jews have a greater responsibility than non-Jews. While non-Jews are only obligated to obey the seven commandments given to Noah, Jews are responsible for fulfilling the 613 mitzvot in the Torah, thus G-d will punish Jews for doing things that would not be a sin for non-Jews.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
My understanding is that the Judaism holds that personal responsibility and the Torah is the way to  achieve true freedom. They view the 10 commandments in particular as necessary restrictions to maintain a free society.

It appears you missed the class on Talmudic Judaism because everything you typed only pertains to Jews dealing with other Jews.  Non-Jews are referred to as "goyim", and are essentially cattle to be used as slaves.

Because the goyim choose to enslave themselves with the leftist, atheist religion. Thus is intellectually honest to refer to them as having a group evolutionary strategy which is more idiotic than that of cows. Giving the goyim their free will is not analogous to treating/thinking of them as sub-human. One can be objective that the goyim choose their fate upon granted their free will to choose. (I don't identify myself as a goyim even though I might be, but I am not quite sure what I am and what group evolutionary strategy I have chosen even if by default, as this is a matter for more future study and reflection)

And there is no freedom from the NATURAL LAW. You can pretend you are free without any NATURAL LAW consequences, but you are lying to yourself if you do.

As CoinCube has explained, the core of the Christian faith is about individual adherence to the NATURAL LAW (which includes the natural law outcome of the group evolutionary strategy). There are of course Christian sects which have fallen away from the core point of Christianity. As for the issue of Jews vs. Jesus, I am not sufficiently knowledgeable on that theology aspect and so I don't have anything to say on that matter.

The Lord commands Christians to not have a King (a State) in 1 Samuel 8. But the people do not listen. Thus he gives them the State they reap. If everyone followed the NATURAL LAW, in theory we wouldn't need a King on earth to rule over us.


Every human has to decide to interopt with society and nature in some form of group evolutionary strategy. We don't get a free pass from that decision. It is unavoidable, even by default.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
My understanding is that the Judaism holds that personal responsibility and the Torah is the way to  achieve true freedom. They view the 10 commandments in particular as necessary restrictions to maintain a free society.

It appears you missed the class on Talmudic Judaism because everything you typed only pertains to Jews dealing with other Jews.  Non-Jews are referred to as "goyim", and are essentially cattle to be used as slaves.

Here they are in a 1 minute clip flat out saying it as usual.  No, this is not even close to a one off; this is the norm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCLtAbULUtw
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
The Jews sit outside the collectivism and anneal with it groupwise

Collectivism is the fault of those who participate in it

Most irrational thing I've ever read.  Jews are the most collectivist, borg-like, hive mind people on the planet.  This is why they're currently winning.  History is a lesson of individuals coming in contact with collectivist groups, who then force the individual into his own collectivist group in order to not be trampled.  

You attempted to take a contrarian viewpoint on the Jewish question out of some ego trip and failed miserably.  It's already been analyzed by millions of intelligent people before all coming to the same conclusion.

Collectivists are a threat to the freedom of the individual, but collectivists cannot be beaten without participating in an opposing collectivist group yourself.

My understanding is that the Judaism holds that personal responsibility and the Torah is the way to  achieve true freedom. They view the 10 commandments in particular as necessary restrictions to maintain a free society. The Jewish view on freedom is nuanced.

Judaism and Freedom
http://m.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/161003/jewish/What-Kind-of-Freedom-is-this-Anyway.htm
Quote
It depends on how you define freedom. If being free means doing whatever you want, with no rules or limits whatsoever, then you are right. If I am only free as long as no one tells me what to do and I can follow my every whim and fancy, then being forbidden to eat bread is indeed an infringement of my "freedom."

But is that really freedom? Am I not then just a slave to my whims and fancies? What if my fancies are not really coming from me? Maybe I have desires that were placed in my head by others. Am I truly free if I follow those desires? What if I have instinctive drives that are harmful to myself? Can you call me free if I am bound by those drives? What about compulsive or addictive behavior? Bad habits? Can't you also be a slave to what you want?

Judaism defines freedom very differently. True freedom is the ability to express who you really are. If there are levels to your personality that have not been explored, if your soul has not had the opportunity to be expressed, then you are not yet free.

The Torah is the instruction manual to our souls. Even its seemingly restrictive laws are only there to allow us to tap in to our inner self. Because sometimes it is only through restrictions that our true self can come out.

Another less abstract explanation of the same point can be found here:
https://www.prageru.com/courses/religionphilosophy/i-am-lord-your-god

There is no doubt that many Jews especially secular Jews currently and historically have taken leadership roles in the left and many of those causes are undoubtedly collectivists.

However, the left is not Judiadm a point that was highlighted recently by Dennis Prager who is Jewish.

Left-Wing Jews Are Embarrassing Judaism
http://www.dennisprager.com/left-wing-jews-are-embarrassing-judaism/
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A highly respected American rabbi named Dr. Irving “Yitz” Greenberg used to tell American Jewish audiences, whether Reform, Conservative Orthodox, “I don’t care what denomination you’re a member of, as long as you’re ashamed of it.”

I have adopted that phrase, and I apply it to religions generally. One could just as easily say to Catholics, Protestants and Muslims, “I don’t care what religion you identify with, as long as you’re ashamed of it.” Meaning, of course, you’re ashamed of what many of its members have done to it.
Just think of what has happened to much of mainstream Protestantism; to much of Catholicism, including, sadly, the current pope; and most especially, to the Islamic world.

Given the subject of this column — the destructive influence of leftism on Jews and Judaism — it is relevant to mention some of my Jewish involvement. Among other things, I taught Jewish history and religion at Brooklyn College, was the spokesman for the Student Struggle for Soviet Jewry, have written two books and hundreds of essays and columns on Jews and Judaism, received the American Jewish Press Association Louis Rapoport Award for Excellence in Jewish Commentary, have brought many thousands of Jews to Judaism and have lectured to more Jewish groups in the past 40 years than almost any living Jew.

So, I say this with only sadness: Many American Jews on the left, including rabbis and lay leaders, are embarrassing Jews and Judaism. I say this to ring an alarm in Jewish life and to tell non-Jewish America that these people represent leftism, not Judaism. Furthermore, I am talking only about leftist Jews, not liberal Jews. Unfortunately, however, liberalism has become synonymous with leftism both within and outside Judaism.
This past week, the embarrassing behavior of left-wing Jews reached a new level.

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported that Jews and their clergy at various synagogues around America were gathering to sit shiva — the Hebrew and Jewish term for the seven-day period of grieving that Jews engage in after the loss of an immediate relative — because Donald Trump was elected president.
Consider for a moment how childish and narcissistic this is, using the sacred ritual reserved for the death of one’s child or parent as a way to express disappointment over a presidential election.

And of course, there were the irresponsible, over-the-top outbursts by Jewish columnists and academics. Take Washington Post columnist Dana Milbank, who devoted his column after the election to writing an open letter to his 12-year-old daughter...

Add similar comments made during the election by other Jewish leftists in the media and academia, and you get the picture.

How are we to understand this?

Here’s one explanation: When Jews abandoned Judaism, many of them did not abandon Judaism’s messianic impulse. From Karl Marx — the grandson of two Orthodox rabbis — and onwards, they simply secularized it and created secular substitutes, such as Marxism, humanism, socialism, feminism and environmentalism.


If left-wing Jews want to sit shiva, they should do so for their religion, which, like much of Protestant Christianity and Roman Catholicism, has been so deeply and negatively influenced by leftism.

For the reasons above I therefore disagree with the claim that Judaism is collectivists though the Jewish left certainly is. Torah observant Judaism appears to be arguing that true freedom requires responsibility and presenting itself as the optimal way to achieve freedom. That is one of the reasons I find the religion so fascinating.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
The Jews sit outside the collectivism and anneal with it groupwise

Collectivism is the fault of those who participate in it

Most irrational thing I've ever read.  Jews are the most collectivist, borg-like, hive mind people on the planet.  This is why they're currently winning.  History is a lesson of individuals coming in contact with collectivist groups, who then force the individual into his own collectivist group in order to not be trampled.  

You attempted to take a contrarian viewpoint on the Jewish question out of some ego trip and failed miserably.  It's already been analyzed by millions of intelligent people before all coming to the same conclusion.

Collectivists are a threat to the freedom of the individual, but collectivists cannot be beaten without participating in an opposing collectivist group yourself.



sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
Nazism subscribed to theories of racial hierarchy and Social Darwinism

Whoever wrote this sentence gets an F-.  Anarchy is social Darwinism, while Nazism is group evolutionary strategy.  Jews practice Nazism themselves, they just call it "Zionism" or "Judaism" as a red herring when both groups practice the exact same thing:

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Jewish_group_evolutionary_strategy

Incorrect. The Nazis (and all groups other than the Jews) practice evolutionary groupwise self-destruction. The Nazis were collectivists (go study it!).

The Jews are succeeding because their group strategy is correctly aligned with the natural laws of nature.

The Jews sit outside the collectivism and anneal with it groupwise. The is essentially what George Soros was saying when he said being amoral w.r.t. to opportunity costs is rational. This is why the Jews don't do usury to each other (they are a small group scattered across many collectivist regimes, forming a common philosophical bond or group strategy, and usury is collectivism paradigm in the large), only to the other gentiles.

Collectivism is the fault of those who participate in it. The Jews did not take away the free will of the gentiles. Even farm animals have less free will then the gentiles. No wonder the gentiles are less intelligent (on a groupwise basis) than cows, because they choose collectivism every damn time even though the Lord said not to in 1 Samuel 8.

Example:

Also no need for ad hominem attacks, calling me a dumb ass is not constructive to the debate. Also nothing you've said proves that man is not capable of impacting the long term temperature of the Earth.

Because you implied (upthread) that we are not rational, when it is you who needs to do your homework. We already have.

And because you don't do your homework, you choose to destroy your free-will:

Incorrect. The Nazis (and all groups other than the Jews) practice evolutionary groupwise self-destruction. The Nazis were collectivists (go study it!).

The Jews are succeeding because their group strategy is correctly aligned with the natural laws of nature.

The Jews sit outside the collectivism and anneal with it groupwise. The is essentially what George Soros was saying when he said being amoral w.r.t. to opportunity costs is rational. This is why the Jews don't do usury to each other (they are a small group scattered across many collectivist regimes, forming a common philosophical bond or group strategy, and usury is collectivism paradigm in the large), only to the other gentiles.

Collectivism is the fault of those who participate in it. The Jews did not take away the free will of the gentiles. Even farm animals have less free will then the gentiles. No wonder the gentiles are less intelligent (on a groupwise basis) than cows, because they choose collectivism every damn time even though the Lord said not to in 1 Samuel 8.

And we will let you do it. Please continue. You will reap what you sow.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
Intervention Theory is simply another plaything that some people use to distract us from all-pervading cause and effect.

Cool
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
Nazism subscribed to theories of racial hierarchy and Social Darwinism

Whoever wrote this sentence gets an F-.  Anarchy is social Darwinism, while Nazism is group evolutionary strategy.  Jews practice Nazism themselves, they just call it "Zionism" or "Judaism" as a red herring when both groups practice the exact same thing:

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Jewish_group_evolutionary_strategy

I believe it comes from this guy. The first paragraph was missing it's quotes.

Baum, Bruce David (2006). The Rise and Fall of the Caucasian Race: A Political History of Racial Identity. New York City / London: New York University Press. p. 156

Below is a paper arguing that the Nazis did believe in social Darwinism.
https://www.csustan.edu/sites/default/files/History/Faculty/Weikart/Darwinism-in-Nazi-Racial-Thought.pdf
legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 1145
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
Nazism subscribed to theories of racial hierarchy and Social Darwinism

Whoever wrote this sentence gets an F-.  Anarchy is social Darwinism, while Nazism is group evolutionary strategy.  Jews practice Nazism themselves, they just call it "Zionism" or "Judaism" as a red herring when both groups practice the exact same thing:

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Jewish_group_evolutionary_strategy



legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
The thing that defeated nazi germany on russian territory was pretty much the same thing that defeated napoleon some hundred years ago: the weather (and of course the russian army that needed time to rally).

Secret communication can be broken best example is the enigma.

The US entry into ww2 was nothing of a wonder it was more or less very obvious for all war parties (supporting allied powers with money, arms and soldiers while having economic sanctions and blockades against the axis powers).

All in all the war was very unlikely to be won after germany went into a 3 front war in the west, east and south in africa.
Germany itself has nearly no resources and could only run their war machinery by looting the invaded nations and getting help by swiss bankers who they used to sold their stolen goods (mostly gold) for foreign currency to buy war needed assets (historians say that probaly 75% went through switzerland).

There is a reason why people want to save their (illegal) money in swissbanks. And the reason is if even nazis could do good, secret and stable business in wartime their everyone else could too.

The best example of WW2 code breaking was the Tunny code for that was the more complex code used for high level communications. It was more secure then enigma which was for routine army communications. Less people know about Tunny because it was not declassified until 2002.

https://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/lorenz/fish.htm
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The German mistake

As the number of intercepts, now being made at Knockholt in Kent, increased a section was formed in Bletchley Park headed by Major Ralph Tester and known as the Testery. A number of Depths were intercepted but not much headway had been made into breaking the cipher until the Germans made one horrendous mistake. It was on 30 August 1941. A German operator had a long message of nearly 4,000 characters to be sent from one part of the German Army High command to another — probably Athens to Vienna. He correctly set up his Lorenz machine and then sent a twelve letter indicator, using the German names, to the operator at the receiving end. This operator then set his Lorenz machine and asked the operator at the sending end to start sending his message. After nearly 4,000 characters had been keyed in at the sending end, by hand, the operator at the receiving end sent back by radio the equivalent, in German, of "didn't get that — send it again".

They now both put their Lorenz machines back to the same start position. Absolutely forbidden, but they did it. The operator at the sending end then began to key in the message again, by hand. If he had been an automaton and used exactly the same key strokes as the first time then all the interceptors would have got would have been two identical copies of the cipher text. Input the same — machines generating the same obscuring characters — same cipher text. But being only human and being thoroughly disgusted at having to key it all again, the sending operator began to make differences in the second message compared to the first.

The weather definitely played a huge role in the Nazi defeat but most people believe it was a normal Russian winter that so hindered the Germans when it was anything but normal. In fact it may have been the worst winter in the history of modern Russia. In was part of a global climate anomaly that led to warmer temperatures in the US especially Alaska and shockingly cold temperatures in European Russia. Below is a study on that abnormality if you are interested.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1256/wea.248.04/asset/2005601203_ftp.pdf;jsessionid=5315F60F80655CFF39BD158D8AFF5E94.f03t04?v=1&t=iwtytht6&s=20cbb924f6b287ee48ab4b9d71231917c48a314a

The US entry eventually may not be a surprise but the speed of that entry is of note. It took the US three years to enter into WWI for example and public opinion was absolutely against US involvement in WWII. Pearl Harbor changed that calculus and accelerated US entry into the war by at least six months maybe more. Below is an analysis by a historian arguing that Roosevelt would not have gotten a declaration of War without Pearl Harbor.

http://www.historynet.com/would-fdr-have-gotten-a-declaration-of-war-without-pearl-harbor.htm

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