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Topic: Intervention Theory: An alternative to Darwinism and Creationism - page 7. (Read 9473 times)

legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
Who or what were the vegetables for in pre-sin times?

Cool

I suspect some logical extrapolation is allowed here.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/what-do-monkeys-eat.html
Quote
Most monkeys are omnivores. They love eating ripe fruits and seeds, but they also eat vegetables. Besides bark and leaves, they eat honey and flowers as well. The howler monkey is known as the loudest land animal. You can hear their loud calls even when you are 3 miles away from them in jungles. They are strictly vegetarians and enjoy eating small, young, tender leaves by hanging upside down from their tails. Their diet consists of fresh fruits like yams, bananas, grapes, and green vegetables. Various plants in the canopy layer of the rainforests act as cups and store water for them. Facts about monkeys inform us that they use their lips and hands skillfully to eat only those parts of vegetation which they want. All monkeys wander in search of food during the day,
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
The more I think about it, the more I see that God created everything tame and domesticated, under the complete control of mankind. Then sin came, and many (most?) things turned wild. As usual, science has it backward.

Cool

Not sure I would agree in with the underlined part. We are told God's first instructions to man are "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:"

Subdue implies a process dominion yes but not necessarily without effort.


I would agree. Too strong of a statement. We can't even kill all the plants and animals off.

Cool

Also relevant is that in the Garden of Eden man was told that he was to eat from every herb bearing seed upon the face of all the earth, and every tree in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed.

It was only after he had sinned was he told that he would eat the herb of the field.


Fruits became corrupted. Today we see this. Not only do they spoil easily and quickly, but they do not have some of the nutrients that are necessary for life. Vegetables fill the difference. They are hearty, and do not spoil so easily. In addition, even though they often need cooking before people can stomach them, they have nutrients not found in the fruit.

Who or what were the vegetables for in pre-sin times?

Cool
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
The more I think about it, the more I see that God created everything tame and domesticated, under the complete control of mankind. Then sin came, and many (most?) things turned wild. As usual, science has it backward.

Cool

Not sure I would agree in with the underlined part. We are told God's first instructions to man are "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:"

Subdue implies a process dominion yes but not necessarily without effort.


I would agree. Too strong of a statement. We can't even kill all the plants and animals off.

Cool

Also relevant is that in the Garden of Eden man was told that he was to eat from every herb bearing seed upon the face of all the earth, and every tree in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed.

It was only after he had sinned was he told that he would eat the herb of the field.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
Fun stuff. And fun stuff is, well, just that... fun stuff. But this fun stuff seeks to avoid the questions of where it all came from.

Probability math shows us that evolution is impossible beyond any hint of a possibility. So, where did everything come from? especially life, which is extremely complex?

Whomever or Whatever made all this universe is still the question. And with that question, no answers are really found in this "alternative" thread. Only more questions.

Cause and effect, complexity and entropy still prove God. But even if they didn't, nature shows God. So, we are right back at the same point as before. Darwinism is a failure, and God is the Ruler of the universe.

Cool

i completely disagree with you.. nobody can know who is the ruler of the whole universe. none of the scientist or any religious books can prove whether there is a god or not. i hope somebody will prove the existence of god scientifically .After that, we can believe in god.

The proof of the existence of God is right in front of you. It is called nature.

Nature is made up of machines that are inside the gigantic machine of nature. In fact, all our machines come from the example of the greater machines of nature. Machines need builders. The Builder of nature fits our definitions of the word "God."

Science also proves God. Everything operates by cause and effect. We see nothing other than cause and effect in all nature. Who started the causes? What was the Great First Cause? After all, there was a beginning. There had to have been. If there wasn't, entropy would have dissolved all complexity into a "blob" of sameness in all things long ago. So, the high complexity in the universe shows not only that there was a beginning, but that the beginning must have been extremely complex in Itself to have made all the complexity in the universe in the face of entropy.

Cause and effect show that God rules the universe through cause and effect if no other way.

Cool
legendary
Activity: 2310
Merit: 1028
Fun stuff. And fun stuff is, well, just that... fun stuff. But this fun stuff seeks to avoid the questions of where it all came from.

Probability math shows us that evolution is impossible beyond any hint of a possibility. So, where did everything come from? especially life, which is extremely complex?

Whomever or Whatever made all this universe is still the question. And with that question, no answers are really found in this "alternative" thread. Only more questions.

Cause and effect, complexity and entropy still prove God. But even if they didn't, nature shows God. So, we are right back at the same point as before. Darwinism is a failure, and God is the Ruler of the universe.

Cool

i completely disagree with you.. nobody can know who is the ruler of the whole universe. none of the scientist or any religious books can prove whether there is a god or not. i hope somebody will prove the existence of god scientifically .After that, we can believe in god.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
Doesn't 'ample evidence' equate to 'fact'?
Well, if you think that the Sumerian records are mainly a matter of interpretation and cannot be regarded as evidence then there is still other evidence for you to look at, so you can simply come back around to studying the meaning of the ancient records later...

I went and watched the video ObscureBean linked. In the Youtube sidebar, there were all kinds of additional videos that talked about the same thing. Sumerian evidence is evidence of what their record states. ObscureBean seems to be accurate in his conclusion that Sumerian evidence doesn't really have anything to do with this topic/thread, even though he doesn't say so directly... or does he?

Cool
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
The more I think about it, the more I see that God created everything tame and domesticated, under the complete control of mankind. Then sin came, and many (most?) things turned wild. As usual, science has it backward.

Cool

Not sure I would agree in with the underlined part. We are told God's first instructions to man are "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:"

Subdue implies a process dominion yes but not necessarily without effort.


I would agree. Too strong of a statement. We can't even kill all the plants and animals off.

Cool
hero member
Activity: 636
Merit: 505
Doesn't 'ample evidence' equate to 'fact'?
Well, if you think that the Sumerian records are mainly a matter of interpretation and cannot be regarded as evidence then there is still other evidence for you to look at, so you can simply come back around to studying the meaning of the ancient records later...
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
The more I think about it, the more I see that God created everything tame and domesticated, under the complete control of mankind. Then sin came, and many (most?) things turned wild. As usual, science has it backward.

Cool

Not sure I would agree in with the underlined part. We are told God's first instructions to man are "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:"

Subdue implies a process dominion yes but not necessarily without effort.

Rather then the entire world changing when sin came it seems more likely that only man changed only man went wild. The sin (obtaining knowledge of good and evil) had so altered mans nature that he could no longer live in harmony in the garden. His very essence now made that impossible.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1000

There is ample evidence for it.



Doesn't 'ample evidence' equate to 'fact'? I'm not sure how you can say something is a fact when the only support for your claim is somebody else's research/understanding. It's like saying this is a fact because they said so. Surely you can recognize that interpretation of ancient texts is guesswork at best. Check out the video below for a different interpretation of some of the texts about the Annunaki.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbBvYxx1ODc
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
The more I think about it, the more I see that God created everything tame and domesticated, under the complete control of mankind. Then sin came, and many (most?) things turned wild. As usual, science has it backward.

Cool
sr. member
Activity: 368
Merit: 252
sr. member
Activity: 368
Merit: 252
That's a lot of words to read. Anyway, just like the wide variety of dogs that we have, people bread them and bread the animal with the interesting characteristics that they are looking for. . It's not rocket science.

I'll throw in this dog breed as an example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briard

Quote
They were originally bred to herd as well as guard flocks of sheep. And they were often left to their own devices in order to accomplish their assigned tasks. This makes the Briard different from those breeds that only guard and those that only herd.

All dog come from wolves. Yet a long, long, long time ago some humans, picking specific personality characteristics where able to create a dog that could do a specific function for them. In this case herd sheep. And they do it naturally.
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
You are actually trying to make something out of nothing.

What is wrong with finding examples of domestication and asking questions about these traits?

Nothing wrong at all. Having an open mind and questioning accepted consensus is what allows progress. However, I am also not yet fully convinced of the validity of the first posit in the OP.  Given this uncertainty I would note that my argument in the OP can proceed if only the second posit is true.
 
Intervention Theory in regards to plant domestication is a bold claim. It is a factual claim and one that with time and study we should be able to find increasing and objective evidence for one way or another. As we lack definitive data currently it is not unreasonable for most to support the status quo of modern biology.

However, I also believe it unwise to totally reject the theoretical possibility of intervention theory. Our overall knowledge is limited. Until the history of crop domestication is fully understood one cannot completely rule it out.
hero member
Activity: 636
Merit: 505
You are actually trying to make something out of nothing.

What is wrong with finding examples of domestication and asking questions about these traits?
The hereditary basis of this phenomenon constitutes one of the oldest problems in genetics.
...and this problem is still not solved, despite some attempts...
Source: http://www.genetics.org/content/197/3/795

I suspect that you are trying to NOT talk about Lloyd Pye's ideas because he has the physical evidence to back up what he is saying about intervention:


Source: http://www.lloydpye.com/starchildskull.htm
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
....such complex manipulations of nature could be carried out by primitive yeomen in eight geographical areas over 5,000 years.....

It's no different than the meticulous records for millenia kept to enable predicting eclipses of the sun and moon.

A lot of people have difficulty understanding that "primitive yeomen" were as smart as you or I.

But they were.

Not even you or I are smart enough to breed a domesticated plant from a wild variety.
Smart enough?

We're smart enough to want more of what tastes better, and that's about all it takes.

You are actually trying to make something out of nothing.
hero member
Activity: 636
Merit: 505
If there was an intervention we should see genetic changes to crops that vastly exceed the rate of change if these plants had be subjected to pressure via selective breeding alone. I would be interested to know if this is the case.
I found an example, it shows that the 5' UTR associated with tb1 faced far more selection pressure than the coding region of tb1; in other words, more selection pressure was applied to that region of the genome which does NOT express a phenotype than to its associated allele:

Selection on Candidate Genes and Linked Regions

Tests for selection have been applied most commonly to data from genes for which there has been a priori evidence of a role in domestication or crop improvement. One example is tb1 in maize, where the pattern of nucleotide polymorphism was particularly striking ( Wang et al., 1999). As expected after a domestication bottleneck, the coding region of tb1 contains less genetic diversity in maize than teosinte; the maize coding region retains ∼40% of the genetic diversity in teosinte. The more surprising observation was that the reduction in diversity was far more severe in the 5′ untranslated region (UTR), where maize retains only 2% of teosinte diversity. Further, the pattern changed abruptly over a narrow ∼100 base pair region. Based on these observations, Wang et al. (1999) made two conclusions. First, they concluded that selection targeted the tb1 5′ UTR during domestication, consistent with previous observations that tb1 expression differs between maize and teosinte ( Doebley et al., 1997). Second, based on the abrupt shift in the pattern of diversity, they concluded that recombination had been sufficient to uncouple the history of the 5′ UTR from the coding region.

...

Notably, the cultivated sh4 allele weakens, but does not fully eliminate, the shattering phenotype, which might be critical, because farmers need seed that stays on the plant long enough to be harvested but which can subsequently be freed from the plant by threshing.

Finally, the ability to detect selection also depends on the history of the favored allele. Selection can be difficult to detect if the beneficial variant pre-existed as a common neutral polymorphism prior to domestication (Innan and Kim, 2004 and Przeworski et al., 2005). In this special case, the variant had the opportunity to recombine onto a number of haplotypes prior to the onset of selection. When selection commenced, it favored the variant and dragged along multiple linked haplotypes. These different haplotypes may encompass substantial genetic diversity. As a result, selection does not substantially reduce genetic diversity around the selected site, and nucleotide polymorphism data may not provide a clear signature of a selection event. However, it is not clear whether this model conforms to reality. Many mutations for domestication traits, such as shattering, would have been deleterious in the wild population; thus, it is unlikely that such variants pre-existed as common, neutral alleles in wild populations.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867406015923
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
...
What if EVERYTHING were domesticated back in prehistory, and there were no "aliens" or whatever to improve things. What if the closest to this were only demons that caused complex domesticated things to become wild.

What if everything still is domesticated. Perhaps the only things that are wild are man and that which man has bent to his will and corrupted.
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
....such complex manipulations of nature could be carried out by primitive yeomen in eight geographical areas over 5,000 years.....

It's no different than the meticulous records for millenia kept to enable predicting eclipses of the sun and moon.

A lot of people have difficulty understanding that "primitive yeomen" were as smart as you or I.

But they were.

Not even you or I are smart enough to breed a domesticated plant from a wild variety.

The Sumerians weren't, either. But they were really good at embedding science fiction into their culture. And many people today believe it as truth.

Cool
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