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Topic: IOTA - Unmoderated thread - page 7. (Read 70768 times)

sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
February 27, 2017, 09:51:56 AM

PoW IS against sybil. It's what gives one chain, one tx or the "healthy" majority kind of a network credibility because with the most PoW it is chosen over others. this is no guess, it's common knowledge. I mean, srsly. dont make me look for sources for basic stuff like this.

...
more ramblings without backing anything up with anything more than "because I say so and trust IOTA".
...

Really, PoW works against Sybil? How awesome, now where can I download IOTA full node software and run it and have it connect to the rest of the network? Oh right, you cant. Because pow is not protecting against sybils, and not avoiding a "clustering" of peers which then mess up your non-existent "consensus" aka monte-carlo-randomly-select-a-head algorithm so a coordinator is required.  Roll Eyes

You dont "buy 100000 chips", you make one which has such power, an ASIC, or just use an off-the-shelf FPGA and program it - it would give you enough power to block any smaller IoT devices from transacting, or double-spending them. If iota becomes worth anything more than an iota of cow dung, rest assured people will develop "100000 power chips" to attack it just like they developed bitcoin miners.

can we stop forming hot air?
back up your arguments. that's minimum scientific requirement and necessary to fuel this conversation.
google scholar, science direct, even stackoverflow could be helpful here.
Well I cant "back up my arguments", that would require that you understand that 5 is bigger than 3, and that IoT means small power constrained devices which are smaller than bigger devices. The last sentence requires that you understand relative sizes. Toddlers aquire said knowledge around age 2.

Maybe I can back it up like this, see this letter here, O, is big, now see it here, o, is small, and look now, its gonna be so miniscule you can hardly see it . magic isnt it?

Now then, let me back this one up, IoT devices are really power-constrained and energy-constrained devices, look here https://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoard101 and here https://punchthrough.com/bean wow, 32Mhz, 196kib, all do you think that will need 150W of power to run or less than 2W of power to run, what is your guess? How many of those would you need in a network to outcompete a normal PC? Do you want it to be wasting your battery while it computed dumb proofs when you could instead just not waste power, and send a request over a trusted encrypted link to your cloud or whatever platform you have?

A good one https://www.crowdsupply.com/pinoccio/mesh-sensor-network
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
February 27, 2017, 09:01:27 AM
That's very true from day one and the amount shilling in this thread indicates there is no change in that department.

On the other hand, it seems at least David tries to create something tangible using the scammed money. The idiots and noobs who gave money to David could see the process as a crowdfunding exercise - they crowdfunded an ambitious and reasonably novel project.

What did you do to the real altcoinUK?
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
February 27, 2017, 08:08:58 AM
Only fake news to dump your worthless IOTA to newbies, you greedy bastard.

That's very true from day one and the amount shilling in this thread indicates there is no change in that department.

On the other hand, it seems at least David tries to create something tangible using the scammed money. The idiots and noobs who gave money to David could see the process as a crowdfunding exercise - they crowdfunded an ambitious and reasonably novel project.
sr. member
Activity: 360
Merit: 250
February 27, 2017, 07:48:50 AM

PoW IS against sybil. It's what gives one chain, one tx or the "healthy" majority kind of a network credibility because with the most PoW it is chosen over others. this is no guess, it's common knowledge. I mean, srsly. dont make me look for sources for basic stuff like this.

...
more ramblings without backing anything up with anything more than "because I say so and trust IOTA".
...

Really, PoW works against Sybil? How awesome, now where can I download IOTA full node software and run it and have it connect to the rest of the network? Oh right, you cant. Because pow is not protecting against sybils, and not avoiding a "clustering" of peers which then mess up your non-existent "consensus" aka monte-carlo-randomly-select-a-head algorithm so a coordinator is required.  Roll Eyes

You dont "buy 100000 chips", you make one which has such power, an ASIC, or just use an off-the-shelf FPGA and program it - it would give you enough power to block any smaller IoT devices from transacting, or double-spending them. If iota becomes worth anything more than an iota of cow dung, rest assured people will develop "100000 power chips" to attack it just like they developed bitcoin miners.

can we stop forming hot air?
back up your arguments. that's minimum scientific requirement and necessary to fuel this conversation.
google scholar, science direct, even stackoverflow could be helpful here.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
February 27, 2017, 07:38:57 AM

PoW IS against sybil. It's what gives one chain, one tx or the "healthy" majority kind of a network credibility because with the most PoW it is chosen over others. this is no guess, it's common knowledge. I mean, srsly. dont make me look for sources for basic stuff like this.

...
more ramblings without backing anything up with anything more than "because I say so and trust IOTA".
...

Really, PoW works against Sybil? How awesome, now where can I download IOTA full node software and run it and have it connect to the rest of the network? Oh right, you cant. Because pow is not protecting against sybils, and not avoiding a "clustering" of peers which then mess up your non-existent "consensus" aka monte-carlo-randomly-select-a-head algorithm so a coordinator is required.  Roll Eyes

You dont "buy 100000 chips", you make one which has such power, an ASIC, or just use an off-the-shelf FPGA and program it - it would give you enough power to block any smaller IoT devices from transacting, or double-spending them. If iota becomes worth anything more than an iota of cow dung, rest assured people will develop "100000 power chips" to attack it just like they developed bitcoin miners.
sr. member
Activity: 360
Merit: 250
February 27, 2017, 06:50:06 AM

PoW is a prevention against sybil attacks. The PoW, which is necessary is not very much and will then be of minor significance, once the IRI will be changed for industrial appliances.
why PoW at all? well, you have a synchronized, soon to be decentralized system, where data-integrity needs to be established through the "confirm 2 tx before you conduct a new one" thingy. pretty solid architecture. what would you take?
for the computational power: you ever heard about JINN?
the ternary processors will conduct the necessary PoW in fractions of a second. Right now, I need just a few seconds with my CPU so that's completely fine for users. the IoT will be handled differently, but everyone was told that like a hundred times.
the consensus furthermore will be established in a decentralized manner, once the monte carlo random walk is enabled, because right now, like you know, the coordinator is centralizing it, for security and topology-reason. (the wittnesses in BB btw too)
So what is your point? that the PoW is to heavy? well it isn't very long.
That we have no decentralization? well we will have it in approx. july 2017
That it's not suitable? why not, what is still missing?
That is funny, since last time I checked Iota, the PoW didnt help against Sybils, and instead people were asked for social proof to join the network, that ist he Sybil prevention.  Roll Eyes

No, that is not my point that "pow is heavy", read my post again and try really try hard to see the big picture. No offense, just open your eyes.

Hardware, Jinn, if you place one of these on a chip, someone will place 100 000 of them together in one big chip, call it a Specialized Processing Unit, and it would then be able to outpace and outrun at least 100 000 of other smaller chips. What I mean is, at IoT power levels, can not ever compete with a normal PC, lulz that should be obvious and clear as blue day, no matter if you place "specialized non-existent magic hardware" on it or not.

Hence, PoW and IoT are oxymorons. Pick one. You cant protect your IoT devices with PoW scheme.

But you can, with a signature based scheme such as Byteball, and other cryptocurrency, even DPoS works better. See IOTA developers and fans, say, "Oh but IoT will not be a full node, it will only send/sing transactions", Well duh, obviously, any fucking cryptocurrency can delegate a chip to be dumb and trust another full node. What good cryptocurrencies do is, allow the IoT chip to send/receive transactions with its own keys - by signing shit just as other full wallets, and get the protection from scammers and attackers as the rest of the network. Spicy isnt it.


Of course, IOTA, bragging about IoT so much, and now we hear from its supporter "IoT will be handed differently." WHAT. OK.



PoW IS against sybil. It's what gives one chain, one tx or the "healthy" majority kind of a network credibility because with the most PoW it is chosen over others. this is no guess, it's common knowledge. I mean, srsly. dont make me look for sources for basic stuff like this.

-------------
"Hardware, Jinn, if you place one of these on a chip, someone will place 100 000 of them together in one big chip, call it a Specialized Processing Unit, and it would then be able to outpace and outrun at least 100 000 of other smaller chips. What I mean is, at IoT power levels, can not ever compete with a normal PC, lulz that should be obvious and clear as blue day, no matter if you place "specialized non-existent magic hardware" on it or not. "

I have no fucking idea what point you wanna proof with this. Yes, you surely can buy 100000 chips and try to compete the PoW but what for? Well first you need to make good plans, buy all those chips, either find the right neighbors or deal with the MCRW from july 2017 on but in every case you have a fuckton of costs and work to do. You say any system is hackable? yeah (including BB and BTC), kind of. but is it worth it?
-------------
JINN are not "specialized non-existent magic hardware"
they are "ternary, existent hardware". Just look for it, you will find the source. personal duty to find information and shit...
-------------
and why the fuck do you say things like "...and now we hear from its supporter..."  everything I wrote can be read on my blog, in dozens of articles, guides, FAQ.
what you can do at least is check for public info and updates before you, again, claim you found something fishy, scammy where nothing is, just to fill your badass competition-obsession with byteball. IF byteball is such a winner, why isnt it mentioned anywhere`?
ah wait, they have a nice chatfunction. wow.
and btw: you didn't deliver any proof, again just phrases.
if you think you're a smart person, you won't be mad if we create good terms for a solid conversation. right?
every phrase needs to be backed up.
That's the only meaningful way.
legendary
Activity: 1181
Merit: 1002
February 27, 2017, 04:08:55 AM

[...]Anyway, I was sent by my employer to pick a software library or existing application [...]


Your employer sent you to BTT to pick a software library or application?
 
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
February 27, 2017, 04:05:50 AM

When birthcontrol fails

Im not gonna answer your posts when you begin with insults, the rest of your post is rotten trash.

Which only shows, what can be expected of a project whos leaders talk to other people like this? Smell of rotten fish.

EDIT: This is how you sound like, "Hurr durr, bro, do you even electric circuit? Transistors bro, like, be this small, resistors and shit, IoT, will solve this, computation. Hurr."
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
February 27, 2017, 03:59:31 AM

PoW is a prevention against sybil attacks. The PoW, which is necessary is not very much and will then be of minor significance, once the IRI will be changed for industrial appliances.
why PoW at all? well, you have a synchronized, soon to be decentralized system, where data-integrity needs to be established through the "confirm 2 tx before you conduct a new one" thingy. pretty solid architecture. what would you take?
for the computational power: you ever heard about JINN?
the ternary processors will conduct the necessary PoW in fractions of a second. Right now, I need just a few seconds with my CPU so that's completely fine for users. the IoT will be handled differently, but everyone was told that like a hundred times.
the consensus furthermore will be established in a decentralized manner, once the monte carlo random walk is enabled, because right now, like you know, the coordinator is centralizing it, for security and topology-reason. (the wittnesses in BB btw too)
So what is your point? that the PoW is to heavy? well it isn't very long.
That we have no decentralization? well we will have it in approx. july 2017
That it's not suitable? why not, what is still missing?
That is funny, since last time I checked Iota, the PoW didnt help against Sybils, and instead people were asked for social proof to join the network, that ist he Sybil prevention.  Roll Eyes

No, that is not my point that "pow is heavy", read my post again and try really try hard to see the big picture. No offense, just open your eyes.

Hardware, Jinn, if you place one of these on a chip, someone will place 100 000 of them together in one big chip, call it a Specialized Processing Unit, and it would then be able to outpace and outrun at least 100 000 of other smaller chips. What I mean is, at IoT power levels, can not ever compete with a normal PC, lulz that should be obvious and clear as blue day, no matter if you place "specialized non-existent magic hardware" on it or not.

Hence, PoW and IoT are oxymorons. Pick one. You cant protect your IoT devices with PoW scheme.

But you can, with a signature based scheme such as Byteball, and other cryptocurrency, even DPoS works better. See IOTA developers and fans, say, "Oh but IoT will not be a full node, it will only send/sing transactions", Well duh, obviously, any fucking cryptocurrency can delegate a chip to be dumb and trust another full node. What good cryptocurrencies do is, allow the IoT chip to send/receive transactions with its own keys - by signing shit just as other full wallets, and get the protection from scammers and attackers as the rest of the network. Spicy isnt it.


Of course, IOTA, bragging about IoT so much, and now we hear from its supporter "IoT will be handed differently." WHAT. OK.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
February 27, 2017, 01:41:08 AM

When birthcontrol fails


Do you even understand how computation work on a basic level? Forget ternary, forget IoT, forget hashfunctions. Do you understand on a basic level how operations are carried out? IOTA's PoW is negligible as a spam-preventer. There is no economic race to the bottom in the shape of hunting crypto nonces for mining rewards... What are you going to do? Spend 10 000 000 to attempt to disrupt a 0.1 cent transaction?

Do you know how many logic gates are necessary for a component that acts like an ASIC for the IOTA Curl hashfunction? Do you know that there is already more than enough room for this on the die, hence no extra expenses?



Check his "trust" rating.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
February 26, 2017, 06:47:08 PM

When birthcontrol fails


Do you even understand how computation work on a basic level? Forget ternary, forget IoT, forget hashfunctions. Do you understand on a basic level how operations are carried out? IOTA's PoW is negligible as a spam-preventer. There is no economic race to the bottom in the shape of hunting crypto nonces for mining rewards... What are you going to do? Spend 10 000 000 to attempt to disrupt a 0.1 cent transaction?

Do you know how many logic gates are necessary for a component that acts like an ASIC for the IOTA Curl hashfunction? Do you know that there is already more than enough room for this on the die, hence no extra expenses?

sr. member
Activity: 360
Merit: 250
February 26, 2017, 06:07:09 PM
Be wary of IOTA, they don't like constructive criticism. Red flags are raised:

They dont take kindly on even asking how Iota is supposed to work.

However, they do spread bullshit about Byteball on here, and in their slack forum, they are originater of "Byteball is a blockchain and DAG hybrid" lie.

Iota action smell bad, like something is rotten.

The whole "we'll beat quantum computing" even is a bunch of bs. How can they beat something that can compute several states at the same time almost instantaneously with regular tech that still computes things one at a time? Sounds like they are spreading a bunch of hype to uninformed individuals.

I'm sure someone in their team is working under Ubuntu and somehow convinced their boss about this new fancy shmancy state of the art technology and the many moneys they will make.

The guy I bought some IOTA from said he was selling all of their coins because of internal conflicts with Come-from-Beyond and hinted that the initial investors have a hard time dealing with someone who doesn't want to discuss how the project even works. To the point that they were not allowed to question iota.

Like you said, smells of another BTC scam. What's new in the alt-world, same thing over and over again.

you guys don't wanna get a better image of IOTA. you just stick to your opinion. This looks to me like a conditioned opinion because this isn't about IOTA. this is about byteball or whatever you invested in instead.
everyone INCLUDING dom and david tried their best and talked to you guys to clear uncertain questions but you still come here to trigger everyone.
and I'm asking myself why.
is this just bottom-feeding or is this an honest scientific opinion based on facts?
because all I can see is an ever repeating trump-argumentation with phrases and neural diarrhea.
for the facts I'm willing to start an AmA. You may ask anything and I don't even give a shit about ad hominem. you insult, you ask, I answer anyway.
the first question I saw is "Is quantum-proof bullshit!?"
no.
Winternitz one time signature scheme enables the quantum resistance. here: this for example doesn't say quantum proof or immune, but resistance. and furthermore, that "Current research suggests, that the
security of hash-based signatures will not be significantly harmed by quantum computer supported
attacks [12]." Side 1, bottom. https://eprint.iacr.org/2011/191.pdf
It is about "pseudo randomization" and "key one-wayness" explained on side 4.
Source: "We begin by reviewing the standard definition of digital signature schemes and the security notion
existential unforgeability under adaptive chosen message attacks (EU-CMA) [11]. We then define
two security notions for function families required for our reduction. The first is the well known
pseudo-randomness property. The second is key one-wayness which states that it is hard to find
a key k such that the function fk maps a given input x to a given output y. We also state two
lemmas about these notions which will be useful for the reduction of W-OTS.
"
This is proven.
If you come up with further bullshit, Ill proof you wrong. gogo.
next question!


OK I will bite.

What use does a scheme requiring a Proof-of-Work - which is designed to be computationally and energy-intensive process, provide for computation and energy-starved Internet-of-Things devices?

Let me rephrase that, a digital currency for Internet-of-Things, it even claims to have IoT in its very name, is building its (still not actually functional but ok, can pass) consensus algorithm on Proof-of-Work.

If you still fail to actually see the god damn problem, you must be blinded by marketing of Iota, as better currencies exist which are more suitable for IoT, those which dont require PoW, nor just waste compute power for no real consensus anyway.

EDIT: As for the quantum marketing. At least something done somewhat OK by Iota. Even a broken clock is right 2 times per day.

you haven't been part of the conversation because last time, we failed to find a shared pov ourselves, but I will answer anyway.

PoW is a prevention against sybil attacks. The PoW, which is necessary is not very much and will then be of minor significance, once the IRI will be changed for industrial appliances.
why PoW at all? well, you have a synchronized, soon to be decentralized system, where data-integrity needs to be established through the "confirm 2 tx before you conduct a new one" thingy. pretty solid architecture. what would you take?
for the computational power: you ever heard about JINN?
the ternary processors will conduct the necessary PoW in fractions of a second. Right now, I need just a few seconds with my CPU so that's completely fine for users. the IoT will be handled differently, but everyone was told that like a hundred times.
the consensus furthermore will be established in a decentralized manner, once the monte carlo random walk is enabled, because right now, like you know, the coordinator is centralizing it, for security and topology-reason. (the wittnesses in BB btw too)
So what is your point? that the PoW is to heavy? well it isn't very long.
That we have no decentralization? well we will have it in approx. july 2017
That it's not suitable? why not, what is still missing?
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
February 26, 2017, 05:26:35 PM
Be wary of IOTA, they don't like constructive criticism. Red flags are raised:

They dont take kindly on even asking how Iota is supposed to work.

However, they do spread bullshit about Byteball on here, and in their slack forum, they are originater of "Byteball is a blockchain and DAG hybrid" lie.

Iota action smell bad, like something is rotten.

The whole "we'll beat quantum computing" even is a bunch of bs. How can they beat something that can compute several states at the same time almost instantaneously with regular tech that still computes things one at a time? Sounds like they are spreading a bunch of hype to uninformed individuals.

I'm sure someone in their team is working under Ubuntu and somehow convinced their boss about this new fancy shmancy state of the art technology and the many moneys they will make.

The guy I bought some IOTA from said he was selling all of their coins because of internal conflicts with Come-from-Beyond and hinted that the initial investors have a hard time dealing with someone who doesn't want to discuss how the project even works. To the point that they were not allowed to question iota.

Like you said, smells of another BTC scam. What's new in the alt-world, same thing over and over again.

you guys don't wanna get a better image of IOTA. you just stick to your opinion. This looks to me like a conditioned opinion because this isn't about IOTA. this is about byteball or whatever you invested in instead.
everyone INCLUDING dom and david tried their best and talked to you guys to clear uncertain questions but you still come here to trigger everyone.
and I'm asking myself why.
is this just bottom-feeding or is this an honest scientific opinion based on facts?
because all I can see is an ever repeating trump-argumentation with phrases and neural diarrhea.
for the facts I'm willing to start an AmA. You may ask anything and I don't even give a shit about ad hominem. you insult, you ask, I answer anyway.
the first question I saw is "Is quantum-proof bullshit!?"
no.
Winternitz one time signature scheme enables the quantum resistance. here: this for example doesn't say quantum proof or immune, but resistance. and furthermore, that "Current research suggests, that the
security of hash-based signatures will not be significantly harmed by quantum computer supported
attacks [12]." Side 1, bottom. https://eprint.iacr.org/2011/191.pdf
It is about "pseudo randomization" and "key one-wayness" explained on side 4.
Source: "We begin by reviewing the standard definition of digital signature schemes and the security notion
existential unforgeability under adaptive chosen message attacks (EU-CMA) [11]. We then define
two security notions for function families required for our reduction. The first is the well known
pseudo-randomness property. The second is key one-wayness which states that it is hard to find
a key k such that the function fk maps a given input x to a given output y. We also state two
lemmas about these notions which will be useful for the reduction of W-OTS.
"
This is proven.
If you come up with further bullshit, Ill proof you wrong. gogo.
next question!


OK I will bite.

What use does a scheme requiring a Proof-of-Work - which is designed to be computationally and energy-intensive process, provide for computation and energy-starved Internet-of-Things devices?

Let me rephrase that, a digital currency for Internet-of-Things, it even claims to have IoT in its very name, is building its (still not actually functional but ok, can pass) consensus algorithm on Proof-of-Work.

If you still fail to actually see the god damn problem, you must be blinded by marketing of Iota, as better currencies exist which are more suitable for IoT, those which dont require PoW, nor just waste compute power for no real consensus anyway.

EDIT: As for the quantum marketing. At least something done somewhat OK by Iota. Even a broken clock is right 2 times per day.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
February 25, 2017, 06:38:16 AM
I never cry, because I never bought your shit. But other noobs were scammed by you, yeah, again, Asian empty deal? And the exchanges?

Should I be offended by scam accusation if on BTT "scam" means "innovative project that makes a lot of guys jealous"?
hero member
Activity: 524
Merit: 500
February 25, 2017, 06:34:13 AM
Idiot, where is Asian big deal? Where is exchange news release in last year? Only fake news to dump your worthless IOTA to newbies, you greedy bastard.

Cry, baby, cry. The purpose of your life is to entertain me while I'm having a break between work tasks, you are doing it pretty good.

I never cry, because I never bought your shit. But other noobs were scammed by you, yeah, again, Asian empty deal? And the exchanges?
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
February 25, 2017, 06:23:48 AM
You can't erase posts here, you're the weak one here.

Oh, you are back? Integrity is not the strongest your quality as I see. Let's discuss how (in)ability to erase posts here affects my weaknesses.
sr. member
Activity: 360
Merit: 250
February 25, 2017, 06:15:50 AM
Neckbeard alert.

Won't bother anymore, everyone has been warned about your "high intellect". You actually do more neckbeard talk than anything.

Have fun scamming people, maybe one day you'll step out of your neckbeard shell.

Another weak troll. This is the main problem with all trolls here: they come and go and I have to find new ones to use as jokers. Luckily doing things right is enough to lure new trolls.

You just can't erase my posts here, you're the weak one here.

Scammer neckbeard  Cool

that leaves us with the first coward. just phrases, allegations, insults. no proof of anything.
ladies and gentlemen: LemonAndFriesOne, the pride of creation
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
February 25, 2017, 06:12:28 AM
Neckbeard alert.

Won't bother anymore, everyone has been warned about your "high intellect". You actually do more neckbeard talk than anything.

Have fun scamming people, maybe one day you'll step out of your neckbeard shell.

Another weak troll. This is the main problem with all trolls here: they come and go and I have to find new ones to use as jokers. Luckily doing things right is enough to lure new trolls.

You can't erase posts here, you're the weak one here.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
February 25, 2017, 06:10:05 AM
Neckbeard alert.

Won't bother anymore, everyone has been warned about your "high intellect". You actually do more neckbeard talk than anything.

Have fun scamming people, maybe one day you'll step out of your neckbeard shell.

Another weak troll. This is the main problem with all trolls here: they come and go and I have to find new ones to use as jokers. Luckily doing things right is enough to lure new trolls.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
February 25, 2017, 06:04:02 AM
Idiot, where is Asian big deal? Where is exchange news release in last year? Only fake news to dump your worthless IOTA to newbies, you greedy bastard.

Cry, baby, cry. The purpose of your life is to entertain me while I'm having a break between work tasks, you are doing it pretty good.

Neckbeard alert.

Won't bother anymore, everyone has been warned about your "high intellect". You actually do more neckbeard talk than anything.

Have fun scamming people, maybe one day you'll step out of your neckbeard shell.

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