Is anyone following the Israel & Palestine Situation. - page 17.

hologram

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Quote from: Alphi on July 20, 2014, 10:18:36 AM

1. they can start by giving the Palestinians real authority over the west bank and stop fanatical settlers from moving in and taking land.
they can argue about east Jerusalem later. Right now Isreali settlers in the west bank (Palestinian territory) can do whatever they like short of killing Palestinians and the Palestinian police can do nothing to stop them, they cannot even arrest them. The settlers should either follow the laws of Palestine or be deported.. just like Palestinians in Isreal have to obey Isreali laws.
Right now there is not two states.. only two classes in one state. this is apartheid.

2. yes I am serious..

On November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly voted 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions, in favor of a Partition Plan that created the State of Israel. The British reliquished their mandate over Palestine in 1948.

1.Do you speak about Palestinian in Israel or Arab Israeli ?

2.wasn't my point.

Alphi

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Quote from: hologram on July 20, 2014, 09:59:21 AM

Quote from: Alphi on July 20, 2014, 09:54:24 AM

1) the borders are well defined.. everyone has a map. the settlers know what they are doing when they settle on land which is not part of isreal proper.

2) the UN gave Isreal legitimacy... without it Isreal is nothing more than a foreign invasion and the entire territory of Isreal is occupied land not just Gaza and the West bank. As Isreal relies on the UN to give them legitimacy and recognition as a nation they should also respect the UN and ALL agreements which they themselves signed. So too should the Palestinians.

3) I agree.. the Palestinians need to accept that the Isrealis are not just going to go away... the Isrealis need to accept that the Palestinains are not going to just go away either.

1.So you speak about the 1967 border ?

2.Are you serious ? Without UN Israel would exist and it would be a deal between UK and Jordan for land issues...

3.Sure

1. they can start by giving the Palestinians real authority over the west bank and stop fanatical settlers from moving in and taking land.
they can argue about east Jerusalem later. Right now Isreali settlers in the west bank (Palestinian territory) can do whatever they like short of killing Palestinians and the Palestinian police can do nothing to stop them, they cannot even arrest them. The settlers should either follow the laws of Palestine or be deported.. just like Palestinians in Isreal have to obey Isreali laws.
Right now there is not two states.. only two classes in one state. this is apartheid.

2. yes I am serious..

On November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly voted 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions, in favor of a Partition Plan that created the State of Israel. The British reliquished their mandate over Palestine in 1948.

3. indeed...

redsn0w

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#Free market

Quote from: hologram on July 20, 2014, 09:59:21 AM

Quote from: Alphi on July 20, 2014, 09:54:24 AM

1) the borders are well defined.. everyone has a map. the settlers know what they are doing when they settle on land which is not part of isreal proper.

2) the UN gave Isreal legitimacy... without it Isreal is nothing more than a foreign invasion and the entire territory of Isreal is occupied land not just Gaza and the West bank. As Isreal relies on the UN to give them legitimacy and recognition as a nation they should also respect the UN and ALL agreements which they themselves signed. So too should the Palestinians.

3) I agree.. the Palestinians need to accept that the Isrealis are not just going to go away... the Isrealis need to accept that the Palestinains are not going to just go away either.

1.So you speak about the 1967 border ?

2.Are you serious ? Without UN Israel would exist and it would be a deal between UK and Jordan for land issues...

3.Sure

But why the two peoples do not live together in peace?

hologram

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Quote from: Alphi on July 20, 2014, 09:54:24 AM

1) the borders are well defined.. everyone has a map. the settlers know what they are doing when they settle on land which is not part of isreal proper.

2) the UN gave Isreal legitimacy... without it Isreal is nothing more than a foreign invasion and the entire territory of Isreal is occupied land not just Gaza and the West bank. As Isreal relies on the UN to give them legitimacy and recognition as a nation they should also respect the UN and ALL agreements which they themselves signed. So too should the Palestinians.

3) I agree.. the Palestinians need to accept that the Isrealis are not just going to go away... the Isrealis need to accept that the Palestinains are not going to just go away either.

1.So you speak about the 1967 border ?

2.Are you serious ? Without UN Israel would exist and it would be a deal between UK and Jordan for land issues...

3.Sure

Alphi

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Quote from: hologram on July 20, 2014, 09:41:52 AM

Here we go again...

1.What is the limit of their land ?

2.Sure, Palestine and Israel should negotiate, but i still don't see the legitimacy of UN, seem the beginning of a world government and i don't like this stuff.

3.Not only, but as i said their is better chance to obtain peace if Palestinian have reasonable claim. It's a problem of moderation.

1) the borders are well defined.. everyone has a map. the settlers know what they are doing when they settle on land which is not part of isreal proper.

2) the UN gave Isreal legitimacy... without it Isreal is nothing more than a foreign invasion and the entire territory of Isreal is occupied land not just Gaza and the West bank. As Isreal relies on the UN to give them legitimacy and recognition as a nation so they should also respect the UN and ALL agreements which they themselves signed. So too should the Palestinians.

3) I agree.. the Palestinians need to accept that the Isrealis are not just going to go away... the Isrealis need to accept that the Palestinains are not going to just go away either.

somebody needs to smack their heads together.
almost every country on earth has colonizers displacing the native people. almost every country on earth has the problem of how to reconcile the two groups.. its not easy but it has to be done for there to be peace.

a binding treaty needs to be signed.

hologram

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Quote from: u9y42 on July 20, 2014, 09:47:08 AM

1. You can start with, where the Palestinian population is being expelled from their homes, to give place to Israeli settlements. As soon as settlements stop, and peace negotiations resume, they can decide on that.

2. Come on... conspiracy theories now?

3. The Palestinians want peace, and to be treated like humans, not animals. It's seems a reasonable claim to me.

4.You've mostly asked all this before, and were answered. Did you actually read any of it?

1.I want something precise, cause you know, for few square kilometer Arabs bomb you for one century...

2.Not, i take care of what government do and the power they bring to them, UN is bad cause it allow government to interfere in other government affair without taking risk and responsibility for their act.

3.Yes, they can have if they stop terrorism and accept few concession.

4.yes

u9y42

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Quote from: hologram on July 20, 2014, 09:41:52 AM

Quote from: u9y42 on July 20, 2014, 09:35:37 AM

1.First, because Israel is violating international law by occupying territory that it shouldn't, creating settlements in that land, and by the way it treats the Palestinian population.

2.Secondly, why "Israel is in a better place to judge"? Shouldn't it be "Palestine and Israel are in a better place to judge"? I guess this represents part of the problem:

3.if you take into account only what Israel wants and ignore what the other party wants, the way to peace isn't easy, because you're going to have to oppress the other party.

Here we go again...

1.What is the limit of their land ?

2.Sure, Palestine and Israel should negotiate, but i still don't see the legitimacy of UN, seem the beginning of a world government and i don't like this stuff.

3.Not only, but as i said their is better chance to obtain peace if Palestinian have reasonable claim. It's a problem of moderation.

1. You can start with where the Palestinian population is being expelled from their homes, to give place to Israeli settlements. As soon as settlements stop, the blockade ends and peace negotiations resume, they can decide on that.

2. Come on... conspiracy theories now?

3. The Palestinians want peace, and to be treated like humans, not animals. It's seems a reasonable claim to me.

You've mostly asked all this before, and were answered. Did you actually read any of it?

hologram

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Quote from: u9y42 on July 20, 2014, 09:35:37 AM

1.First, because Israel is violating international law by occupying territory that it shouldn't, creating settlements in that land, and by the way it treats the Palestinian population.

2.Secondly, why "Israel is in a better place to judge"? Shouldn't it be "Palestine and Israel are in a better place to judge"? I guess this represents part of the problem:

3.if you take into account only what Israel wants and ignore what the other party wants, the way to peace isn't easy, because you're going to have to oppress the other party.

Here we go again...

1.What is the limit of their land ?

2.Sure, Palestine and Israel should negotiate, but i still don't see the legitimacy of UN, seem the beginning of a world government and i don't like this stuff.

3.Not only, but as i said there is better chance to obtain peace if Palestinian have reasonable claim. It's a problem of moderation.

Alphi

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on July 20, 2014, 09:35:29 AM

Quote from: Alphi on July 20, 2014, 07:47:20 AM

I wouldn't blame Palestinians for Hamas.. any more than I would blame Jews for the Israeli government.
and i don't blame Americans for George bush. (im just glad that big mistake is over)

In a democracy you only need 51% of the voter support to form a government.. not everyone.

Hamas was elected in 2012 with more than 50% support, and the level of support has increased ever since. If the Palestinians were serious about living in peace, then they should have given a chance to the more moderate parties.

please tell me you read the part where Gaza governed by Hamas only makes up less than half of Palestine.

as I already said.. its very easy to vote extremists into power.. its very hard to vote them out.. they are the ones hold the guns, controlling the services like power, and water...

u9y42

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on July 20, 2014, 09:35:29 AM

Quote from: Alphi on July 20, 2014, 07:47:20 AM

I wouldn't blame Palestinians for Hamas.. any more than I would blame Jews for the Israeli government.
and i don't blame Americans for George bush. (im just glad that big mistake is over)

In a democracy you only need 51% of the voter support to form a government.. not everyone.

Hamas was elected in 2012 with more than 50% support, and the level of support has increased ever since. If the Palestinians were serious about living in peace, then they should have given a chance to the more moderate parties.

As I've just said, Hamas has recently agreed to all the terms the Quartet had imposed on them when they joined with the PA. It's hard to demand more of them; and in fact, when they agreed, Israel canceled the peace negotiations, which is telling in my view.

u9y42

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Quote from: hologram on July 20, 2014, 09:25:48 AM

Quote from: u9y42 on July 20, 2014, 09:22:08 AM

Hologram, this is the third or fourth thread in which we've been discussing this, and you always go back to saying the exact same thing. Please do us both a favor and research this stuff; this information is public, so there is no excuse for anyone not to know it: there has been a peace proposal which virtually everyone accepts as being fair, and which only the US and Israel refuse. Hell, even Hamas has offered more concessions than those present in that proposal when it recently formed the unity government with the PA.

You still don't explain me why this majority is legitimate to talk on this issue. History have not a good record on what the majority think it's fair... Maybe Israel is in a better place to judge ?

Actually, I've explained it on the previous three or four threads, though you've obviously ignored it every time. First, because Israel is violating international law by occupying territory that it shouldn't, creating settlements in that land, and by the way it treats the Palestinian population. Secondly, why "Israel is in a better place to judge"? Shouldn't it be "Palestine and Israel are in a better place to judge"? I guess this represents part of the problem: if you take into account only what Israel wants and ignore what the other party wants, the way to peace isn't easy, because you're going to have to oppress the other party.

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: Alphi on July 20, 2014, 07:47:20 AM

I wouldn't blame Palestinians for Hamas.. any more than I would blame Jews for the Israeli government.
and i don't blame Americans for George bush. (im just glad that big mistake is over)

In a democracy you only need 51% of the voter support to form a government.. not everyone.

Hamas was elected in 2012 with more than 50% support, and the level of support has increased ever since. If the Palestinians were serious about living in peace, then they should have given a chance to the more moderate parties.

Alphi

hero member

Activity: 798

Merit: 1000

Quote from: hologram on July 20, 2014, 09:12:03 AM

Quote from: u9y42 on July 20, 2014, 09:07:41 AM

Here, I'll explain. It's easy, really: in order to oppress people and take their land you need to spend a lot of money. If you stop trying to do that, you don't need to spend that money. Did that help?

Again Hamas are good people and don't want just kill all the Jews, they will stop terrorism if Israel give back few square kilometer of land delimited by a treaty Arab don't accept cause they preferred try to kill all the Jews...

hamas wont stop being fundamentalists but if you treat Palestinians like human beings and stop stealing their land and allow them to work and trade, the power of hamas will weaken.

if you treat people with dignity they become dignified.
if you treat people like animals they become animals.

just look at IRAN everyone thought that they were a terrorist nation hell bent on destroying America and Isreal.
Now that the rhetoric has toned down they are gradually opening up... you will see in the next few years the power of the hard liners will weaken further and the power of the people will gain strength...

Iran is far from a completely free society but compared to the mess that is in Isreal/Gaza, Syria and Iraq they are the peaceful ones right now.
positive change can happen but with Gaza and Israel I cannot see that happening for a very long time. It takes many years to get over the pain of losing a mother, sibling or child, perhaps even an entire generation.

redsn0w

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#Free market

Quote from: hologram on July 20, 2014, 09:25:48 AM

Quote from: u9y42 on July 20, 2014, 09:22:08 AM

Hologram, this is the third or fourth thread in which we've been discussing this, and you always go back to saying the exact same thing. Please do us both a favor and research this stuff; this information is public, so there is no excuse for anyone not to know it: there has been a peace proposal which virtually everyone accepts as being fair, and which only the US and Israel refuse. Hell, even Hamas has offered more concessions than those present in that proposal when it recently formed the unity government with the PA.

You still don't explain me why this majority is legitimate to talk on this issue. History have not a good record on what the majority think it's fair... Maybe Israel is in a better place to judge ?

Quote from: redsn0w on July 20, 2014, 09:23:00 AM

No << Si vis pacem, para bellum >>

I trust in peace but in few years i think. maybe 2020.

we hope that someday we will be the true PEACE !

hologram

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Quote from: u9y42 on July 20, 2014, 09:22:08 AM

Hologram, this is the third or fourth thread in which we've been discussing this, and you always go back to saying the exact same thing. Please do us both a favor and research this stuff; this information is public, so there is no excuse for anyone not to know it: there has been a peace proposal which virtually everyone accepts as being fair, and which only the US and Israel refuse. Hell, even Hamas has offered more concessions than those present in that proposal when it recently formed the unity government with the PA.

You still don't explain me why this majority is legitimate to talk on this issue. History have not a good record on what the majority think it's fair... Maybe Israel is in a better place to judge ?

Quote from: redsn0w on July 20, 2014, 09:23:00 AM

No << Si vis pacem, para bellum >>

I trust in peace but in few years i think. maybe 2020.

redsn0w

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#Free market

Quote from: hologram on July 20, 2014, 09:19:14 AM

Quote from: redsn0w on July 20, 2014, 09:16:54 AM

maybe, but Why do you the war?

To protect myself ?

No << Si vis pacem, para bellum >>

u9y42

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Quote from: hologram on July 20, 2014, 09:12:03 AM

Quote from: u9y42 on July 20, 2014, 09:07:41 AM

Here, I'll explain. It's easy, really: in order to oppress people and take their land you need to spend a lot of money. If you stop trying to do that, you don't need to spend that money. Did that help?

Again Hamas are good people and don't want just kill all the Jews, they will stop terrorism if Israel give back few square kilometer of land delimited by a treaty Arab don't accept cause they preferred try to kill all the Jews...

Hologram, this is the third or fourth thread in which we've been discussing this, and you always go back to saying the exact same thing. Please do us both a favor and research this stuff; this information is public, so there is no excuse for anyone not to know it: there has been a peace proposal which virtually everyone accepts as being fair, and which only the US and Israel refuse. Hell, even Hamas has offered more concessions than those present in that proposal when it recently formed the unity government with the PA.

EDIT: So that there are no doubts, the concessions Hamas agreed to when joining the PA were recognition of Israel, non-violence and adherence to previous agreements; those were the conditions that the Quartet had imposed. In response, Israel canceled the peace negotiations.

hologram

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Quote from: redsn0w on July 20, 2014, 09:16:54 AM

maybe, but Why do you the war?

To protect myself ?

redsn0w

legendary

Activity: 1778

Merit: 1043

#Free market

Quote from: hologram on July 20, 2014, 09:12:03 AM

Quote from: u9y42 on July 20, 2014, 09:07:41 AM

Here, I'll explain. It's easy, really: in order to oppress people and take their land you need to spend a lot of money. If you stop trying to do that, you don't need to spend that money. Did that help?

Again Hamas are good people and don't want just kill all the Jews, they will stop terrorism if Israel give back few square kilometer of land delimited by a treaty Arab don't accept cause they preferred try to kill all the Jews...

maybe, but Why do you the war?

hologram

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Activity: 504

Merit: 250

Quote from: u9y42 on July 20, 2014, 09:07:41 AM

Here, I'll explain. It's easy, really: in order to oppress people and take their land you need to spend a lot of money. If you stop trying to do that, you don't need to spend that money. Did that help?

Again Hamas are good people and don't want just kill all the Jews, they will stop terrorism if Israel give back few square kilometer of land delimited by a treaty Arab don't accept cause they preferred try to kill all the Jews...

Topic: Is anyone following the Israel & Palestine Situation. - page 17. (Read 42678 times)