Topic: Is anyone following the Israel & Palestine Situation. - page 19. (Read 42678 times)

sad but true.. and there are so many more forgotten conflicts still going on.

"Death and horror" in Gaza as thousands flee Israeli bombardment

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/gaza-thousands-flee-israeli-bombardment

<< Fiercest fighting yet as Israel widens ground offensive and faces accusations of war crimes over rising number of civilian deaths. >>

Nobody wants to get Palestinian refugees for the same reason EU doesn't want to take Romanian gypsies inside. Just look at the country that suffered more with this war, Lebanon. Once one of the most developed countries from Middle East, Beirut was even named the Paris of Middle East, is now... well... that thing.

I think at least part of the reason for the violent resistance on the part of the Palestinians (even though they know they can't possibly win militarily) is due to the fact that when it ends the reporters go home, and they're left with the reality of being under occupation. After all, according to the diplomatic documents leaked by Wikileaks, Israeli policy towards Gaza is to keep the population at a level of survival just above that of an humanitarian crisis; policy towards the West Bank is to take over the important areas, displace the Palestinians living there, and beat up or kill whoever resists - the rest can live in whatever is left, cut off from the outside and with no long term viability if a two state solution is ever implemented with current borders. And of course it doesn't help that Israel isn't particularly interested in peace or negotiations while it has the upper hand.

This isn't to say that I agree with Hamas' tactics, or that I believe that violence is the best way to handle the situation - I don't - but the truth is most people wouldn't even be talking about this now if it wasn't for the escalation of the conflict.

when Janissaries finished their service a lot of them went into either government posts or back to their villages and became village head men or prominent land owners.
many christian families actually wanted to have a son in the Janissary core because of how well they were treated. The families did not have to convert their religion just pay the tax (ie give up one son). Around those times almost every family had at least 1 son in the ottoman army anyways so the Christians actually had a pretty good deal because their son was in the elite core.
And yes ofcourse many of the Janissaries didn't have a clue where they came from because they were taken from conquered lands where they were either slaves/war prisoners or orphans
I was talking about occupied Christians... not the ones that fought bitterly against occupation.

anyways I think we are going way off topic here... but the balkans is not a very good example of religious tolerance. Just ask anyone from Bosnia or Kosovo.. oh and don't forget Vlad Tepes.. probably the most intolerant guy that ever lived in the balkans lol.

maybe there is a lesson to be learnt here.... the Palestinians should stop violently resisting and the Isrealis should stop violently oppressing. because on both sides it seems not to be working.



They seem do have done a better job at keeping regional peace than the Byzantine Christians that preceded them. That's not to say that religion had anything to do with it... just making the point that you shouldn't generalize to much about religion.

You got it all wrong. Here on the Balkans Turks were routinely kidnapping Christian boys. Locals called this ominous practice "blood tax". Children were usually transferred far away, converted into Islam and trained as elite soldiers - janissaries. Since they were taken from their parents at very young age, vast majority of janissaries had no clue about their true origin.


After reading this, one can only wonder why enslaved nations under the Ottoman rule had such desperate urge either to rebel, migrate into adjacent Christian countries, or convert to Islam.

sure  just cherry pick history as it suits your agenda.

back in 1940s and 50s the Israelis were using Guerrilla tactics just like the Palestinians today and they were considered terrorists by the British. the word terrorism changes depending on who is in power.
But that is beside the point.. yes the Isrealis even had weapons manufacturing facilities built into civilian buildings so they must have been using human shields too.. ey?.. if you knew your Isreali history you would know that.
 
you say that they won against the entire Arab world? you say it as if the entire Arab speaking world was united, they never were and they certainly aren't today.

you say why weren't the Palestinians too worried about the Ottoman Turks? well that's because the Turks have always been tolerant of different religions.
The Palestinians were not brutally oppressed by the Turks nor were they locked in outdoor prisons and shot at day and night like fish in a barrel.

the Jews and Christians weren't too worried about the Turks either. In fact the elite special forces of the Turkish army the Janisarries were made up almost entirely of Christians. So not only did the turks tolerate Christians but they even gave them guns and let them guard their Sultan.

despite, or perhaps even because of, being an Islamic empire.. the Ottoman Turks were one of the most tolerant and enlightened nations of the region (even the world) for many many centuries. you can even see how tolerant they are today (compared to most Islamic nations)


If a million Muslims were fleeing persecution from Europe they would have been treated worse than the Jews (back then and nowdays).. sorry to say..

just look at the Palestinians today.. very few countries in the middle east (or even the world for that matter) are willing or able to take that many refugees. I'm pretty sure that if they had a choice most Palestinians would have left that desolate scrap of land by now.. but A) they are locked in on all sides.. and B) nobody is willing to accommodate them even if they could get out.

the Israelis were at least given land, international aid and the protection of Foreign superpowers like the USA.. they were also well funded despite being small in number.

its all good and well to say that Israel today is powerful because it has sophisticated weapons including nuclear weapons... but the reality is that they are only powerful because of the international effort to keep weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of the other nations of the region and they were well supported with military technology from the US. The Israelis could not have done it on their own with or without the help of their god.

with that being said.. the term "With great power comes great responsibility" comes to mind. So the world has every right to expect Israel to act responsibly. We are all suffering the consequences of the continued radicalization in the middle east and none of that is being helped by the actions of Israel.

the world has changed so much in the past few decades (including the way in which warfare is carried out) and nobody wants to see Israel cause another large scale conflict in the region.


when the Bush administration invaded iraq in some misguided attempt to free the world from terrorism (terrorism which came from every other country except iraq).. not enough voices spoke out against it..

here we are 13 years later countless civilian deaths and there are now more terrorists and fundamentalists in Iraq than there it has ever had in its entire history.

the lesson is very clear... if you want to create a bigger problem than you started with then lash out attack people using collective punishment.
if you want the madness to end then do as much as you can to avoid hurting the innocent while you seek out the guilty.

its not rocket science. its not even a question of who is morally justified and who isn't.... its just plain old common sense..


EDIT:

I have to concede that things weren't all roses and sunshine under the ottoman Turks... They were also responsible for the Armenian genocide during WWI. it only goes to show that during war.. even tolerant societies can commit unspeakable acts... all the more reason for people to talk things through rather than taking up arms.. I should think.

Israel is hated because they are the top dog now.

But there was a time in 1948 when the Israeli army was nothing but a few Haganah militias and a hastily put together army of men, many of whom with no military experience and fresh off the boats still recovering from the holocaust facing off against the whole Arab world supplied by British and Syrian tanks, rifles and airplanes ready to drive them into the sea dead or alive. At this time it was Israel who was the underdog and miraculously won when all hope was lost, why do you think Arabs call it the "Nabka" or disaster? It was inconceivable that they could have lost.

Can Israel be heavy handed and flagrant to the opinions of the UN? Sure. But let's not forget they are dealing with neighbors who historically allied with Hitler and the Axis powers and wanted to kill them years before Israel even became a country. How nice would you be to someone who tried to wipe you out as a race?

Also I have to ask, if Palestinians cared about occupation by foreigners why did they allow the Turks to occupy and run Palestine for centuries with little resistance? I get the feeling if it was a million Muslims who fled Europe seeking a home after the holocaust they might have been more welcoming to them...

nobody said Israel can't defend themselves.
but seriously if Israel has the technology that can see and shoot down almost every single rocket that is fired at them.. surely they have the technology to check that there are no women and children inside a house before blowing it up. It is simply reckless and stupid to blow up houses regardless of who is inside.

as I have said many times already.. all that does is create more soldiers for hamas and other fundamentalist groups... how can you not see that?

it is the actions of the Isreali government that are giving soldiers to Hamas.. not me.. I don't even support or condone anything they (hamas) do.
I am not even muslim, I have more jewish friends than I do islamic friends, so why are you blaming me for what hamas does?


people go out into a war zone, build houses and put women and children in those houses... and are you are calling me insane?

I am not the one who believes I will go to heaven if I recklessly put my wife and children in danger.

Allowing crazy civilians to occupy and guard land with their wives and children.. is almost as bad as using crazy civilians to guard weapons... so yes I think that is equivalent to using "human shields".

EDIT:
human shields is a propaganda term that I wouldn't generally use because it allows the propagandist to dehumanize civilians and make them a more legitimate target for military aggression. I just use it here because it is all too easily used by the Isreali government propaganda machine.

Do? Allow Israel to defend itself instead of blaming it for doing it and by doing so giving legitimacy to the action of hamas.

It has stopped doing so and it was only used during a very small period of time.

settles are human shields? Are you serious or just insane??
I won't even answer it as it's so stupid I am shocked.

The world did not invade Iraq/Afghanistan to fight terrorism, everyone knows it.
I want the world to stop being hypocrite.

In most countries? Hamas is recognized as a terrorist organization in Israel, The United States, Canada, the European Union, Jordan, Egypt and Japan.
That's 34 countries out of 196. Hardly most.

So you saying Egypt does Israel a favor by blocking their side? Because they know they would smuggle weapons more easily? That sounds like a damn good reason to keep the borders closed on the Israeli side too.

Humanitarian? All ships (with the exception of one, and the goods on it were than sent to gaza via trucks) that were sent were sent only to provoke IDF and create propoganda. 2 of them were even caught with weapons on them.
I dare anyone send a provocative ship to China.

And why couldn't they just do it via Egypt, they got a border there? or RedCross (which is recognized by Israel as the official means to send gaza goods), why purposefully create a conflict with IDF unless you did it for propaganda?

gaza is an autonomy now. Israel wants nothing to do with it. The fact that that piece of land used to belong somewhere is irrelevant.

So? It existed 2000 years ago or so, your point? Many countries did not exist until a certain year and many more were "artificially" created - whatever that means, including but not limited to USA, Ukraine, Germany, Italy, Jordan, Syria, All the countries in Africa, and so on.
The age of the country is completely and utterly irrelevant.

Actually it's not a fact.
Let's start with some history:
The name palestine was first given to the land of Israel by the Romans when they conquered the land. The name was after the local settlers who were called Philistines.
The origin of the Philistines isn't certain, but it's agreed by most historians that it most likely Europe, so they aren't native (you insist on going back in time, which I find stupid).
There are many history record that would confirm it, but I would recommend reading "Pleasure Excursion to the Holy Land" by Mark Twain, as it will make eduction pleasurable.
Spoiler: He has no mention of palestinians and this was from 1867.
Moreso, never at any point in time was there a country named palestine, so there's no such nation either.

Also, your land is never yours, it belongs to the country you're living in, and as such, their land was never theirs, it was belong to the British Empire, and before that to the Ottoman Empire, and before that to the Roman Empire and so on...
If you think your land is yours than I got some really bad news for you.

So no, it was not stolen, and no, you can't compare it to denying the holocaust, WTH are you even comparing the two.

Aye, so why can't the people of gaza do the same? Why do they support a regime that has the destruction of Israel on its front banner if that's not what they want.
And if that's what they want, there cannot be peace.

Peaceful nuclear program? That's why they enriched past the "peaceful" level?
That's why their leaders out right say they will destroy Israel?
And if their people don't want this, why don't they do something about it?
If they do not want fundamentalism, why is their leader a religious fanatic? supreme leader ayatollah ali khamenei.

I could say the same to you.

Maybe, hopefully.

So tell hamas to stop the aggression.
Israel doesn't instigate aggression.
It might over-react, but it never just out right shot into gaza. Nor has it shot into populated areas to kill civilians because it's in its agenda.
If given the chance, hamas would cause maximum civilian casualties to Israel.
If given the chance, Israel would cause no casualties to palestinians.


So in essence your solution is I'll go to various thread and post 1 sided comments and point a blaming finger only towards Israel and by that just add wood to the flame.
Because let me tell you something, my family lives in the south, 45 sec alert time from gaza, I lived there most of my life until not to long ago, and there hasn't been a year that we didn't have the alarm go off.
Those who live 15 sec alert time from gaza haven't had a week without alarms since 2005.
And to my frustration, the Israeli government decided to show restraint and not respond to it.
But that, of course, is gone unnoticed to the world, because it's not interesting when they fire at us.
But when Israel finally decides to do something, it performs "atrocities".

in most western countries anyone who goes to the middle east to fight beside Hamas, ISIS or Hizbala or any other terrorist organisation is immediately arrested when they return.
anyone who gives them financial aid is also likely to be jailed. there are also sanctions placed against any country that supports those organisations.

what more do you want us to do ? do you want us to blow up their houses too?

why does Israel use civilians to protect and steal disputed land?

are not Jewish settlers just human shields in another form... ? they try to take land which the world agrees that they have no right to take. They use women and children to do it. they know they will most likely be attacked and could die for doing it.. but they still do it.

I do now know why these people do crazy things like steal land and hide rockets in their houses.. maybe you should ask them?

the only thing I can think is that these people do not want peace.

it might surprise you to realize but my countries people are also being blown up by stupid militants and terrorists.
just look at what happened in Ukraine 2 days ago.. 300 innocent people dead from an act of sheer stupidity.

the difference is.. that we do not go and blow up the house of the terrorist and kill their entire family.
because most of us realize that this will only create more militants capable of doing stupid things like that..


The world does what it can to fight terrorism.... they even invaded Iraq and Afghanistan.
the problem is that in the case of Iraq, the war was based on lies and too many innocent people died in Iraq.. and this only made the problem worse.
do you want the world to start more wars and create more problems?


In most countries.. anyone caught funding or supporting Hamas will go to jail.. how can you say they they are not putting pressure on Hamas?
notice how nobody on this forum is talking in support of Hamas? this is because they have very little support in the international community, people are only talking about helping the poor Palestinian civilians who get caught up in the mess created by the Isreali government and Hamas.


Do you want Egypt to open the border with Hamas? this would create an even bigger problem.. more bombs and rockets going into Gaza. Only a few years ago Egypt was governed by the Muslim Brotherhood.
if they did not have a relatively peaceful revolution then you would have even more militants and weapons going into Gaza. Egypt is not in a perfect situation now but clearly the people of Egypt did not want to move towards more fundamentalism. Gaza is part of Isreal/Palestine and has been for thousands of years, not part of Egypt.

I think most people would prefer to have medicine and food coming from Isreal than weapons coming from Eqypt into Gaza.

Eqypt also did not blockade ships of humanitarian aid from going into Gaza. Isreal did.



Erasing Israel from the map is rhetoric and propaganda.
I do not agree with rhetoric and propaganda but.
Did you know that Isreal was missing from the world map for nearly 1000 years until 1947?
the Isreal of today is an artificially created state.. created from land taken from the Palestinians who have been living there for 1000s of years and giving it to Foreigner settlers from all over the world.
this is just a fact... Denying that land was stolen from Palestinians and other people living there in the 1940s is no different from Denying the Holocaust.
We cannot deny history or change it, all we can do is try to live with it.

the Jews have a right to have a homeland.. and so do the Palestinians. Isrealis have a right to sleep at night without fear of being blown up at any moment and so do Palestinians.
the way that the Palestinians are living now is worse than the way the Jews were living in the 1930s... they have no power, no home, no money and nowhere to run to..
this is not to blame Isreal for all the problems.. but merely to state the reality of the Palestinian situation.

Speaking about pressure on 'Arab' countries
I will point to Egypt as an example.. the pressure came from within.. the people did not want fundamentalism they did not want war with Isreal so they had a revolution.
If they are all raised to hate and destroy Isreal then they would not have such a revolution against the Muslim brotherhood.

Again I will give you another example.. IRAN... they are supposed to be Isreal's greatest enemy. If this is true then why are they fighting so hard against ISIS? why is Iran moving towards a peaceful nuclear program?  this is because the people of IRAN do not want fundamentalism and war. It is only rhetoric and propaganda used by the powers that be to control the people.

Actions speak louder than words.. do not believe all the rhetoric and propaganda being used by the various governments.. and just look at what they are actually doing.

Peaceful revolution was happening all over the middle east.. These are people who do not want to destroy Isreal, they do not want fundamentalism, they just want to live in peace and stability.

this could happen in Gaza too if given enough time but more deaths make Peaceful revolutions less likely...
As we can see in Syria, too many people died and now there is only a bitter fight to the death on all sides... nobody wants this to happen again and in Gaza.



If I had a solution to the problems in the middle east then I would win a nobel peace prize.
I am not saying the problem is easy to fix.
I am only saying that there are many things that must not be done because all they do is make the situation worse.
we can learn from the mistakes made in the past made by Russia, China, India and the USA (and many other countries)

well I hope we can.....

People who want to live in peace should reject fundamentalism in all its forms. It does not matter what religion you are, it is the Ideas that are dangerous not the religion.

I would disagree with this as the israel army has occupied palestine before successfully.

I think Hamas are more willing to use civilians as human shields to protect themselves and their weapons stockpiles.

Funders, don't care and irrelevant.
Leaders, no, they don't hide. Granted, they aren't on the front lines, but that does not equate hiding.

Of course I don't want it to happen. I honestly wish there could be peace, but sadly there cannot be.
When the border with gaza was opened, extremists used it to arm and send suicide bombers. I lived in Israel during that time and it was frightening.
Everyday you'd hear about a suicide bomber exploding inside a bus, dozens killed and no1 around the world would give a shit.

That's why Israel left gaza and gave them autonomy and also why they closed the borders to it, with the exceptions of water, electricity, medicine and food (they are still getting those from Israel on a daily basis).

Egypt got a border with gaza too btw, but for some reasons, most people ignore that simply fact and blame Israel for blockading gaza.

Why do people point so many blaming fingers at Israel?  Why don't they put pressure on hamas to put limit on civilians casualties, civilians that they purposefully aim at.
Why no-ones goes and blames Egypt for closing its border to gaza?
Where's the pressure on the various arab countries that raise generation after generations to hate Israel? (erasing it from the map of the globe, spreading that the Holocaust is a fictional even Jews use to buy sympathy in the world, Jews rules the world, Zionism = terrorism)?

And last, what is your solution? Sit there idle do nothing and suck it up? (because trying to minimize the damage is already being done, IDF soldiers do not shot with intent to kill civilians).
Would the USA suck it up?
Russia?
China?
India?

Edit:
Where are the pointing fingers towards hamas that has on its front banner the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews?
Where are the pointing fingers towards hamas using the money it's getting (and it's getting hundred of millions of dollars from Iran, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, etc) to build rockets and buy weapons and to build tunnels to hide them in, rather than build bunkers to protect its citizens (since Israel is so evil in your eyes)?
Why does hamas use people to protect its rockets as opposed to Israel that uses rockets to protects its people?

do you really think that isreali leaders and funders are not hiding safely in bunkers or hotels outside of isreal?

people are fighting and dying on the streets for their ideology and the leaders pulling the strings are always hiding far away from the front lines.

the innocent die while the real criminals hide in the shadows and live in luxury...

right now a green flag flies over Gaza... and many people around the world do condemn the actions of Hamas.
but Isreal does not understand that by killing civilians (whether intentionally or not) instead of weakening Hamas all they are doing is making sure that if that green flag is torn down it will be replaced by a black flag.

do you really want that to happen?
the world does not want this... this is why they put so much pressure on Isreal to limit civilians casualties. The implications of this war are much bigger than simply Isreal Vs Gaza...
the entire region is unstable and at risk of being overrun by fundamentalist flags.

As war returns to Gaza, it is the children who are frozen in fear

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/19/gaza-israel-palestine-terror-children

<< Our correspondent has watched as 12 days of terror have overwhelmed the region, leaving at least 300 dead. >>

This is just depressing MJ1990

I wish this can stop but as we can see its just increasing by the moment. With the new ground offensive started in Palestine the number of dead people is just going to increase. War has never had any good outcomes. Just Negative one.

God bless the people of Gaza and stops this injustice !!!

Our prayers and well wishes are with innocent people on both sides being affected.

Duke

Playing the Jewish card doesn't work anymore for Israel...
I think Jewish people should respect their religion and not let Judaism be used as a tool to justify Israel's War Crimes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZBZX4ZxPjA

YOU DO NOT WANNA MISS THIS!

"The Gaza Bombardment - What You're Not Being Told"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXRO1YFreNA