Is stealing bitcoins illegal? - page 2.

malaimult

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Quote from: sobitcoin on December 09, 2014, 04:42:44 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Alright, since the general consensus is that stealing bitcoins is illegal.
If I discontinue the use of communication with said person (from a way that can be linked back to my IP address) and continue the conversation on an anonymized, encrypted email, with TOR, a VPN, and tails, and then execute said plan, law enforcement would have no way to prove that it was me who committed the crime and I would not be held accountable due to lack of evidence that it was me, correct?

I hope whoever you are fucking over holds you personally accountable for the worth of every dollar. People like you need to dissapear.

Well he does bring up a very good point. If you are dealing with someone who is anonymous to you then you should assume that he is anonymous overall and should take the associated precautions when trading with such person

Robtc91

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Pretty obvious answer... right? Huh

blossbloss

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This slightly different use case has probably been discussed here before, but I think it also belongs in this thread.

I struggle with what it means to own private keys. I think we just "know" the private keys. Anyone who knows the private key has complete access to the associated bitcoin. So if I try some obscure brainwallet phrase and discover a long unattended address with BTC, is this the same kind of theft as the OP's fraud use case?

Since we can't communicate a warning shot to the person who set up a bad brainwallet passphrase, how can any be sure that the private keys have not been lost due to bad memory/security proceedures? That might be the same thing as finding a $20 bill in the middle of Central Park in NYC. Untraceable owner and no confidence that the authorities can get the money to the rightful owner. Most people would treat it as a windfall, and no one would consider it theft. I think this last point depends on the amount of money found -- if you found a satchel of $100,000 cash, taking it to the authorities would make sense.

But back to the question of "knowing" vs. "owning" private keys. Can there be clear delineation of how to interpret this?

sobitcoin

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Alright, since the general consensus is that stealing bitcoins is illegal.
If I discontinue the use of communication with said person (from a way that can be linked back to my IP address) and continue the conversation on an anonymized, encrypted email, with TOR, a VPN, and tails, and then execute said plan, law enforcement would have no way to prove that it was me who committed the crime and I would not be held accountable due to lack of evidence that it was me, correct?

I hope whoever you are fucking over holds you personally accountable for the worth of every dollar. People like you need to dissapear.

BADecker

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All "wrongdoing" is unlawful if the harmed/damaged person files a complaint. If the complaint is upheld in court, then the wrongdoing becomes illegal, even if it wasn't illegal before.

raganius

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Well, who cares about Laws, anyway?

It is enough to know that this would be a harmful act to decide not to engage in acting this way.

We do not need anyone to create stupid laws that tell us what to do or not to do. As long as you respect others' Life, Liberty and Property you know you are doing the right thing.

Wink

Schleicher

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In germany it would not be theft, since bitcoins are not 'things' (physical objects).
Instead it would be fraud / hacking / sabotage or something similar.

ChuckBuck

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better everyday ♥

Why wouldn't stealing bitcoins not be illegal?

It's money like any other form of currency. Stealing money is illegal, no matter the means or how, so stealing Bitcoins is illegal as well.

LitcoinCollector

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Yes stealing bitcoin in this construction is illegal.

Amph

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not being noticed doesn't make it not illegal

Notanon

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Theft is theft, there are no two ways about it. No different to someone hacking into a bank and transferring small amounts out of different accounts without being noticed.

malaimult

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Quote from: Flashman on December 08, 2014, 09:30:47 AM

Quote from: Dogtanian on December 08, 2014, 09:08:24 AM

but whether the police would be able to do anything about it is another matter.

I'd stick an "immediately" in there. In 5-10 years, all police may have computing resources for deep blockchain analysis, and be able to "clear up" old theft and fraud reports with a couple of mouse clicks. Should the jurisdiction they are in be letting the department keep a proportion of the fine or court award against the thief or fraudster, you become a cash cow to be milked.

This will probably be much more difficult they you imply, especially for smaller amounts.

It is very difficult to know when a transaction is sending bitcoin to another person or just a transfer to yourself (plus if you properly use change addresses, almost every transaction will include one transfer to yourself).

Even if stolen bitcoin is transferred directly to an exchange, it is possible that the exchange could go out of business sometime between now and 10 years from now, leaving behind no records, so even if it is determined that an address associated with stolen bitcoin belongs to a specific exchange (who verified someone's identity) it may not be possible to determine who exactly was behind the transaction

feverpitch

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Quote from: IsaacDestruction on October 11, 2014, 09:41:30 AM

For example, if I mislead someone into sending me a large amount of bitcoins (in the United States) would that be illegal?

If I did not force them to do anything, but they sent them anticipating me to send a product in return, but I never send it.

Would this be considered illegal considering no one would know whether the bitcoin address that received the bitcoins was my address?

Of course it's illegal. It's a federal offence to steal something of value.

botany

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Quote from: Snail2 on December 08, 2014, 10:19:07 AM

As far as I know according to IRS bitcoin should treated as property. If it's property then stealing it is a crime.

I guess stealing bitcoins would have been a crime even before the IRS recognized it as property.
Stealing is stealing, after all.

Snail2

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As far as I know according to IRS bitcoin should treated as property. If it's property then stealing it is a crime.

Flashman

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Hodl!

Quote from: Dogtanian on December 08, 2014, 09:08:24 AM

but whether the police would be able to do anything about it is another matter.

I'd stick an "immediately" in there. In 5-10 years, all police may have computing resources for deep blockchain analysis, and be able to "clear up" old theft and fraud reports with a couple of mouse clicks. Should the jurisdiction they are in be letting the department keep a proportion of the fine or court award against the thief or fraudster, you become a cash cow to be milked.

Dogtanian

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It's obviously a crime as you have stolen someone elses property (even though it's digital), but whether the police would be able to do anything about it is another matter.

Flashman

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Hodl!

I doubt it...

Laws against theft in general, do not need to specifically mention bitcoin in order to protect it. Does the law have to be amended for every new iPhone that comes out in order to make stealing it illegal? No.

If you built a picnic table out of wood grown on your own land, and had some reasonable proof that you did so (Photo etc) and it was stolen, would it need a special law to legally recognise that picnic table before you could report it stolen? No.

lili song

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It depend on every country's regulation

At my country, Bitcoin isn't being notice yet
so my goverment still doesn't make any regulation regarding bitcoin.

Therefore , stealing bitcoin is legal

But my conscience says, illegal

Flashman

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Hodl!

RIAA have warped the kiddies minds... now they can't tell difference between filesharing and stealing, since RIAA insist filesharing is stealing and everybody with an ounce of common sense knows it isn't. So moving any data now looks like filesharing. To be a theft, the use of the data has to be denied of the owner. All the rest are IP or copyright violations, and method of obtaining may be the greater crime than possession.

So, you do anything to anybody else's bitcoins that denies them the future use of those bitcoins, it's theft.

Just to spell it out, this is a crime. Crimes draw cops. Interactions with cops have a nonzero chance of you being shot dead.

Topic: Is stealing bitcoins illegal? - page 2. (Read 9435 times)