Topic: Israel: Operation Protective Edge - page 2. (Read 14723 times)

relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iCcltrV3Jk

sana8410, have you read any interesting books lately? i'm in the mood to read something not work related for once .

Please point out the pressure put on any security council member that was solely done by the UN. Because I would say that the UN made some noise, and the US, China, or Russia did what they chose despite the UN comments. In fact, I would say that the UN only puts out what at least one of those countries wants put out.

Of course, this last part is exactly what I meant. They will do what's in their interest while pretending that pressure made them do whatever it is that was in their interest to do.

Now of course that doesn't mean that Israel did what we were pressuring them to do (engage in a peace process), instead they unilaterally pulled out of Gaza in order to end peace talks with Abbas.

Dov Weisglass (the aid) went on to explain:

"The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process, and when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress."

If there was any ambiguity in that he also stated:

"The disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."

That's fairly cut and dry, so no i'm not just proverbially speaking talking out of my ass, rather I say those things because I have paid attention to internal Israeli political dialogue. I make those claims specifically because I have direct supporting evidence for them.
This actually isn't true either, we see pressures occur all of the time in the absence of security council agreement.

Well, the Moroccans have driven out almost all of the natives from Western Sahara and have replaced them with Moroccan citizens. There is no violence in Western Sahara, partially because there are no natives out there. Almost the entire pre-invasion population of WS is living as refugees in the desolate and cholera-stricken UN camps in Algeria.

Are you saying that Israel should follow similar measures?

Going back to the beginning of our conversation, the only thing I'm discussing is the best way to change the perspective of the American public. The only thing I'm a proponent of is a change in tactics. If I saw that the current tactics were working, I wouldn't be chatting about it at all.

That wasn't the point. Neither side is particularly trying to convince people who study the issue thoroughly, through the use of propaganda. I wasn't indicating you were unable to change your mind.

We have direct evidence of it though. the Sharon government blatantly stated that they pulled out of Gaza for example because of increased international pressure on them to engage in a peace deal with the Palestinian Authority.

From one of the chief initiators of the plan stated when asked why Israel had engaged in it:

"Because in the fall of 2003 we understood that everything was stuck. And although by the way the Americans read the situation, the blame fell on the Palestinians, not on us, Arik [Sharon] grasped that this state of affairs could not last, that they wouldn't leave us alone, wouldn't get off our case. Time was not on our side. There was international erosion, internal erosion. Domestically, in the meantime, everything was collapsing. The economy was stagnant, and the Geneva Initiative had gained broad support. And then we were hit with the letters of officers and letters of pilots and letters of commandos [refusing to serve in the territories]. These were not weird kids with green ponytails and a ring in their nose with a strong odor of grass. These were people like Spector's group [Yiftah Spector, a renowned Air Force pilot who signed the pilot's letter]. Really our finest young people."

That's pretty straightforward, he mentioned both US pressure and several instances of international pressure.

And I'm really not much of a supporter of the UN. It's goals are fine, but they surpass reality. When you consider the majority of countries in the world have some sort of non democratic government, I don't want their opinions forced on me. Nor do I believe my opinion should be forced on some Afghan tribe. Essentially, their goals are too grandiose to be possible.

We see violence change the minds of people all of the time. I can assure you for example that Israel is facing much greater pressure over the issue of Palestine than Morocco is over the issue of Western Sahara and unfortunately, part of the reason for that is the absence of violence in the Western Sahara. There are other reasons of course since Israel is such a prominent interest of our culturally and politically. Conflict doesn't guarantee attention, just ask the Sudanese in South Kordofan.

I'm also not sure how this is a rebuttal or appropriate response to my statement. I'm not sure what you would have me do, give in to propaganda? Refrain from correcting people? Stop talking about it? I'm not really sure what you are advocating here.

Well that is a bit offensive since it implies that I am not capable of changing my mind regardless of the situation and am incapable of impartial analysis. I also find that a bit off since I actually have changed my mind, and quite dramatically, on this issue and used to be a staunch supporter of Israeli occupation which would seem to indicate that my opinion is open to changing dependent upon evidence / research.

I doubt we will agree that Israel has been pressured to do anything in particular. I find it far more likely that they did things they knew could be worked in their favor, then pretended that they were "pressured" into doing it. The UN has no way of bringing effective pressure so long as any one of the security council members opposes it.

I don't see how this is really relevant to anything that I've been saying. though your dismissal of international bodies like the UN I find a bit odd in this case, since we have seen very real cases of Israel being pressured into giving up territory and making concessions by external actors and bodies. If Israeli conservatives had their way it would still be in occupation of Gaza, the Sinai, and Southern Lebanon; and the West Bank would have been purged of Arabs and annexed in full by now.

I mean no offense whatsoever, but there is no possible proof that is available to the world in general that would effectively sway your opinion on the situation there. I can understand that, and I understand your reasoning. But let's be honest, you aren't the person either side is trying to sway. The people both sides are trying to sway are the people I described, who watch a few moments of FOX, or MSNBC, or CNN to form opinions, then switch back to Honey boo boo. Violence will never change their minds.

I ask for proof because it is being used in a propaganda effort to justify Operation Protective Edge and make Hamas out to be the main / sole aggressor within the most recent fighting.

Plus I have my standards, so I tend to demand details when hard claims are made of that nature, especially since I am familiar with some of the nuances of conflict.

If we're talking about swaying US public opinion, the Hamas guy just sabotaged any gains Hamas propaganda has made, and reinforced Israeli propaganda.

And who do you want this proof for?


Some sort of world body like the UN? There is no true such world body that will ever matter in a case like this. Russia is a great example. The UN can say what they like, but it doesn't matter. If anything happens in Ukraine that matters, it will be because the US drags Europe kicking and screaming into an effective sanctions routine. Ban Ki-moon making statements will do nothing important. The same applies to Israel.

His statement was highly ambiguous, when it didn't have any reason to be so. We've seen such things before with other groups like Al Shabaab when it was trying to put forth a public image of control during its three way split and internal power struggle. It becomes especially interesting when the Israeli police reports and independent experts/ analysts both agreed that it hadn't been ordered by Hamas leadership and that they seemed to be operating operationally speaking on their own. The higher ups in the Israeli government are the primary faction stating that Hamas ordered it via primary leadership. Hamas still (right now) denies a role in it.

The truth is hard to get at, I don't know what it is, but neither does anyone with only publicly available records to go off of.

Fuck Israel!