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Topic: Israel: Operation Protective Edge - page 3. (Read 14685 times)

sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
August 29, 2014, 10:16:58 AM
what am i missing here?
Quote
A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676
What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.
this feels like semantics to me. your claim was that hamas didn't claim responsibility, not that hamas was or wasn't involved.
It isn't semantics at all. There is a big difference for instance between an IDF soldier engaging in an abuse on his own and an IDF soldier engaging in abuses via direct orders from his chain of command and the Israeli government and much different implications, unless you want to suggest that the Fort Hood shootings were directed by the Obama Administration for example.
you keep on talking about who is or isn't responsible for some reason. i never responded to any claim you made about that. i was responding explicitly to the claim you made about what that guy said (and NOT about who is or isn't responsible).

that being said, weren't you admonishing someone two posts ago for comparing hamas to a large established beaurocratic government?
Right, and he didn't claim that Hamas ordered it. Not semantics; a fact and an important distinction.
Yes, in so far as groups like Hamas generally have even less operational control over its field operatives which makes said operatives much more likely to act on their own than members of a more tightly structured and monitored system like a federal government. Which just makes my comparison of the two in this specific case all the more potent since the well structured government has less of an excuse for such rogue acting and yet it happens anyway, so no one should be surprised that it also happens within organizations like the al Qassam Brigade.
i feel like im missing something. the dude said quite explicitly that al qassam carried it out (mind you, not that members of al qassam carried it out). now, this might be some weird collective usage of nouns... but on the face of it the quote is the quote.
Think of it this way then: there is more than one Al Qassam Brigade (which is actually literally true as well).
if i read the wiki page on hamas/al qassam will it explain it?
No idea, I haven't read it. It is usually pluralized though (Al Qassam Brigades), the trouble with them is that given the territorial divides there are command issues between Gaza and the West Bank. Fatah and its armed wing Al Asqas experienced the same trouble so even while Abbas had denounced violence in the West Bank you still had Fatah elements engaging in violence in Gaza. Then there is, of course, the issue of perceived public operational control. No organization is going to like to admit that it can't control its own members. During the Algerian war for Independence for example the FLN had to take responsibility publicly for a number of acts that it never ordered for the sake of appearing operationally unified and strong. What we really lack in this statement that was made in Turkey by a long exiled leader is clarification.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
August 29, 2014, 09:55:43 AM
what am i missing here?
Quote
A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676
What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.
this feels like semantics to me. your claim was that hamas didn't claim responsibility, not that hamas was or wasn't involved.
It isn't semantics at all. There is a big difference for instance between an IDF soldier engaging in an abuse on his own and an IDF soldier engaging in abuses via direct orders from his chain of command and the Israeli government and much different implications, unless you want to suggest that the Fort Hood shootings were directed by the Obama Administration for example.
you keep on talking about who is or isn't responsible for some reason. i never responded to any claim you made about that. i was responding explicitly to the claim you made about what that guy said (and NOT about who is or isn't responsible).

that being said, weren't you admonishing someone two posts ago for comparing hamas to a large established beaurocratic government?
Right, and he didn't claim that Hamas ordered it. Not semantics; a fact and an important distinction.
Yes, in so far as groups like Hamas generally have even less operational control over its field operatives which makes said operatives much more likely to act on their own than members of a more tightly structured and monitored system like a federal government. Which just makes my comparison of the two in this specific case all the more potent since the well structured government has less of an excuse for such rogue acting and yet it happens anyway, so no one should be surprised that it also happens within organizations like the al Qassam Brigade.
i feel like im missing something. the dude said quite explicitly that al qassam carried it out (mind you, not that members of al qassam carried it out). now, this might be some weird collective usage of nouns... but on the face of it the quote is the quote.
Think of it this way then: there is more than one Al Qassam Brigade (which is actually literally true as well).
if i read the wiki page on hamas/al qassam will it explain it?
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
August 29, 2014, 09:51:05 AM
what am i missing here?
Quote
A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676
What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.
this feels like semantics to me. your claim was that hamas didn't claim responsibility, not that hamas was or wasn't involved.
It isn't semantics at all. There is a big difference for instance between an IDF soldier engaging in an abuse on his own and an IDF soldier engaging in abuses via direct orders from his chain of command and the Israeli government and much different implications, unless you want to suggest that the Fort Hood shootings were directed by the Obama Administration for example.
you keep on talking about who is or isn't responsible for some reason. i never responded to any claim you made about that. i was responding explicitly to the claim you made about what that guy said (and NOT about who is or isn't responsible).

that being said, weren't you admonishing someone two posts ago for comparing hamas to a large established beaurocratic government?
Right, and he didn't claim that Hamas ordered it. Not semantics; a fact and an important distinction.
Yes, in so far as groups like Hamas generally have even less operational control over its field operatives which makes said operatives much more likely to act on their own than members of a more tightly structured and monitored system like a federal government. Which just makes my comparison of the two in this specific case all the more potent since the well structured government has less of an excuse for such rogue acting and yet it happens anyway, so no one should be surprised that it also happens within organizations like the al Qassam Brigade.
i feel like im missing something. the dude said quite explicitly that al qassam carried it out (mind you, not that members of al qassam carried it out). now, this might be some weird collective usage of nouns... but on the face of it the quote is the quote.
Think of it this way then: there is more than one Al Qassam Brigade (which is actually literally true as well).
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
August 29, 2014, 09:49:57 AM
what am i missing here?
Quote
A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676
What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.
this feels like semantics to me. your claim was that hamas didn't claim responsibility, not that hamas was or wasn't involved.
It isn't semantics at all. There is a big difference for instance between an IDF soldier engaging in an abuse on his own and an IDF soldier engaging in abuses via direct orders from his chain of command and the Israeli government and much different implications, unless you want to suggest that the Fort Hood shootings were directed by the Obama Administration for example.
you keep on talking about who is or isn't responsible for some reason. i never responded to any claim you made about that. i was responding explicitly to the claim you made about what that guy said (and NOT about who is or isn't responsible).

that being said, weren't you admonishing someone two posts ago for comparing hamas to a large established beaurocratic government?
Right, and he didn't claim that Hamas ordered it. Not semantics; a fact and an important distinction.
Yes, in so far as groups like Hamas generally have even less operational control over its field operatives which makes said operatives much more likely to act on their own than members of a more tightly structured and monitored system like a federal government. Which just makes my comparison of the two in this specific case all the more potent since the well structured government has less of an excuse for such rogue acting and yet it happens anyway, so no one should be surprised that it also happens within organizations like the al Qassam Brigade.
i feel like im missing something. the dude said quite explicitly that al qassam carried it out (mind you, not that members of al qassam carried it out). now, this might be some weird collective usage of nouns... but on the face of it the quote is the quote.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
August 29, 2014, 09:47:29 AM
what am i missing here?
Quote
A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676
What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.
this feels like semantics to me. your claim was that hamas didn't claim responsibility, not that hamas was or wasn't involved.
It isn't semantics at all. There is a big difference for instance between an IDF soldier engaging in an abuse on his own and an IDF soldier engaging in abuses via direct orders from his chain of command and the Israeli government and much different implications, unless you want to suggest that the Fort Hood shootings were directed by the Obama Administration for example.
you keep on talking about who is or isn't responsible for some reason. i never responded to any claim you made about that. i was responding explicitly to the claim you made about what that guy said (and NOT about who is or isn't responsible).

that being said, weren't you admonishing someone two posts ago for comparing hamas to a large established beaurocratic government?
Right, and he didn't claim that Hamas ordered it. Not semantics; a fact and an important distinction.
Yes, in so far as groups like Hamas generally have even less operational control over its field operatives which makes said operatives much more likely to act on their own than members of a more tightly structured and monitored system like a federal government. Which just makes my comparison of the two in this specific case all the more potent since the well structured government has less of an excuse for such rogue acting and yet it happens anyway, so no one should be surprised that it also happens within organizations like the al Qassam Brigade.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
August 29, 2014, 09:37:39 AM
what am i missing here?
Quote
A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676
What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.
this feels like semantics to me. your claim was that hamas didn't claim responsibility, not that hamas was or wasn't involved.
It isn't semantics at all. There is a big difference for instance between an IDF soldier engaging in an abuse on his own and an IDF soldier engaging in abuses via direct orders from his chain of command and the Israeli government and much different implications, unless you want to suggest that the Fort Hood shootings were directed by the Obama Administration for example.
you keep on talking about who is or isn't responsible for some reason. i never responded to any claim you made about that. i was responding explicitly to the claim you made about what that guy said (and NOT about who is or isn't responsible).

that being said, weren't you admonishing someone two posts ago for comparing hamas to a large established beaurocratic government?
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
August 29, 2014, 09:32:31 AM
what am i missing here?
Quote
A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676
What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.
this feels like semantics to me. your claim was that hamas didn't claim responsibility, not that hamas was or wasn't involved.
It isn't semantics at all. There is a big difference for instance between an IDF soldier engaging in an abuse on his own and an IDF soldier engaging in abuses via direct orders from his chain of command and the Israeli government and much different implications, unless you want to suggest that the Fort Hood shootings were directed by the Obama Administration for example.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
August 29, 2014, 09:24:02 AM
what am i missing here?
Quote
A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676
What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.
Sometimes you don't need proof or evidence that acts are being done with, at a minimum, the acquiescence of leadership. Take the IRS debacle as a comparative example ,,,
I have higher standards than that. And your comparison is pretty bogus since Hamas is not in operational control of the West Bank which is where the attack occurred. Also, comparing a spread out terrorist organization with secretive cells to a federal government structure is way off in terms of methodology of operation.
newbie
Activity: 8
Merit: 0
August 29, 2014, 09:22:58 AM
what am i missing here?
Quote
A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676
What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.
this feels like semantics to me. your claim was that hamas didn't claim responsibility, not that hamas was or wasn't involved.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
August 29, 2014, 09:17:56 AM
what am i missing here?
Quote
A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676
What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.
Sometimes you don't need proof or evidence that acts are being done with, at a minimum, the acquiescence of leadership. Take the IRS debacle as a comparative example ,,,
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
August 29, 2014, 09:11:59 AM
what am i missing here?
Quote
A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676
What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
August 29, 2014, 09:00:18 AM
what am i missing here?
Quote
A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
August 29, 2014, 08:58:08 AM
israel's greatest victory against the palestinians over the last 65 years is the propaganda war. they've successfully convinced the western world that this a battle of two equal sides with equal claim to disputed land. Not only that but they've even managed to get people to believe that they are the victims in all of this, it's brilliant really.
the greatest victory the zionists have is being on the winning side of every violent conflict since the inception of the country... which i suppose was exactly the point of zionism to being with.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
August 29, 2014, 08:54:18 AM
israel's greatest victory against the palestinians over the last 65 years is the propaganda war. they've successfully convinced the western world that this a battle of two equal sides with equal claim to disputed land. Not only that but they've even managed to get people to believe that they are the victims in all of this, it's brilliant really.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
August 29, 2014, 08:51:36 AM
Something I was thinking about regarding the media aspect of the war...

When Israel capture Palestinian fighters, it is referred to as detainment/arrest and they are called prisoners. When Hamas captures Israeli fighters, it is referred to as grabbing/snatching and they are called victims of kidnapping.
The truth of the matter is the media has robbed palestinians of their legitimacy. They've been turned into the aggressors when anyone with an ounce of independent thought can see it's the other way around. don't tell mover that though.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
August 28, 2014, 11:19:08 AM
You seem to flitter between realpolitik and the issuing of your own opinions. Maybe it's just the nature of communicating over forum boards here and I have been misinterpreting.

I'll boil down my stance here though in a nut shell:

1.) Israel isn't a partner for peace, Abbas in the West Bank is for the Palestinians.

2.) There can be no peace unless Israel is a partner

3.) In order to make Israel a partner the pressure needs to come from external forces since it certainly isn't going to come within Israel given the rise of conservatism domestically and the powerful Ultra-Orthodox lobby.

4.) Thus in order for international pressure to build against Israel and force Israel's hand (something we've seen happen before) a discussion of right and wrong absolutely needs to take place, constantly and in public.
While I don't really disagree with anything there in a sense, I also don't believe Israel will ever be a partner for peace voluntarily. And as long as Hamas or some successor continues to send rockets over and kidnaps/kills people as in the case of those students, no amount of discussion will change minds in the US. Well, maybe in 50 or 75 years, but not in a foreseeable timeline. We don't necessarily disagree on anything except tactics.
legendary
Activity: 3752
Merit: 1217
August 28, 2014, 11:05:05 AM
3.) In order to make Israel a partner the pressure needs to come from external forces since it certainly isn't going to come within Israel given the rise of conservatism domestically and the powerful Ultra-Orthodox lobby.

I agree that the current Israeli government is being led by the Conservatives (esp. Likud-Beitenu). But the Ultra-Orthodox parties (Shas & UTJ) have lost all the powers which they had enjoyed in the past. The current ruling coalition is a mix of the conservative religious groups (Benjamin Netanyahu& Naftali Bennett), Russian Jews (Avigdor Lieberman) and the non-religious (led by Yair Lapid).  
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
August 28, 2014, 11:01:52 AM
Something I was thinking about regarding the media aspect of the war...

When Israel capture Palestinian fighters, it is referred to as detainment/arrest and they are called prisoners. When Hamas captures Israeli fighters, it is referred to as grabbing/snatching and they are called victims of kidnapping.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
August 28, 2014, 10:59:52 AM
Quote
I don't believe you thought that through. "Are you going to believe all this theory, or your lying eyes?" Or in this case, ears.
I'll give an example then: I speak to a lot of Nigerians concerning Boko Haram, they tell me all about how it is a CIA plot to discredit Islam and keep Goodluck Johnathan and southerners in power after the 2015 elections. Now I could just listen to people on the street here and there, or I could file that away, look at larger attitudes through a more rigorous polling methodology, see how they compare, and examine intelligence reports as well as well as my own background knowledge of the situation.
Again, you're discussing something other than American opinion/perspective, which is almost totally based on what they see on their favorite news program. And that is what forms opinions for most people.
I'm not talking about negotiations with a country that has no interest in negotiations (Israel) I'm talking about using discourse of right and wrong to politically force action from Israel through external means. Israel can only use Hamas as an excuse for as long as the international community allows them to, and instead of surrendering to that propaganda and obfuscation line I'd rather further public discourse through attention to right and wrong.
Quote
It's also an example of someone who purports to be a senior Hamas spokesman accepting blame for the kidnappings. Whatever is the truth beyond that remains cloudy to most.
He didn't accept blame for them though.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
August 28, 2014, 10:46:51 AM
As far as the NPR link goes, after reading it here I see that the source is Saleh al-Arouri; which would mean that the attack did not stem from Hamas leadership in Gaza, but rather more likely through an exile chain operating independently in the West Bank and directed from Turkey (where he lives).

But even here there isn't evidence of it being directed even from Turkey. All he said in his statement was that Al Qassam Brigade members carried it out, which we already knew, it was merely determined that they were operating alone and not under the direction of Hamas (by the Israeli police chief of the area and by independent analysts). While this douche bag is praising them, he did not actually state that he or Hamas in Gaza ordered the attack. Which of course makes the NPR headline a bit misleading.
Who corrected it? Hamas? Nope.And that's the problem.
Corrected it? Hamas denied that it carried the attack out from the start. Or do you mean who solved the situation by rescuing the students? That question would seem to imply that you think that Gaza's operational headquarters in Gaza have operational control of the West Bank branch of the attackers or even of the larger West Bank Qassam Brigade branch.
It doesn't matter in the least what either one of us thinks. Perception is key, and American perception remains the same or worse.
I can't say that I fully agree. I saw much more outrage, particularly among the youth in our country and on social media during this conflict than I did during Operation Cast Lead, or during Operation Pillar of Defense. Now I don't have solid data on it, so who knows.

As far as the kidnappings go, it is in Israel's interests to blame the leadership of Hamas for it because it wants to destroy the unity government so that it isn't forced into a peace process that it doesn't want to take part in. Just another example of Netanyahu's administration not being a partner for peace.
It's also an example of someone who purports to be a senior Hamas spokesman accepting blame for the kidnappings. Whatever is the truth beyond that remains cloudy to most.
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