jgarzik goes berzerk in #bitcoin-dev, wtf? - page 5.

ArticMine

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: ArticMine on December 01, 2012, 04:19:47 PM

This has the effect of making the sanctions far worse by impacting innocent persons who were not the target of the sanctions in the first place.

Majority is the primary target of sanctions. With time, they become pissed, go mad and demand changes. Once millions are on the street,
things usualy go very nasty for rulers.

To find out who is the target of the sanctions the first step is to actually read the official documentation regarding the sanctions rather than make assumptions about the sanctions and then act on those assumptions to hurt innocent people. Then when innocent people get hurt blame the government, when in fact it is not the government that is really at fault here but rather actors in the private sector.

This why I posted the link to the US Government site further back in this thread.

marcus_of_augustus

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Eadem mutata resurgo

Just now waiting for two things to complete this topic:

1) a Farsi section on bitcointalk forum to spring up

2) a p2p anonymous bitcoin-for-oil exchange

Raoul Duke

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Quote from: gmaxwell on December 01, 2012, 04:06:22 PM

Quote from: smoothie on December 01, 2012, 03:29:29 PM

Who is he to tell others what they can and can't do?

Who are you (and most of the other people in this thread) to tell other people how to run a chat channel which they use and contribute to and you do not?

So, are you saying that if you(or someone else) wants or tries to change bitcoin in a way I don't like or agree with I should just STFU because I never contributed a line of code?

ArticMine

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Quote from: repentance on December 01, 2012, 03:59:01 PM

Quote from: ArticMine on December 01, 2012, 03:28:00 PM

Why not simply read the US sanctions document from the US Treasury and find out?

I know it sounds that simple but like any laws it's all in the interpretation until they're successfully challenged.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/20/us-iran-usa-sanctions-idUSBRE82J18Z20120320

http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-57402034-281/how-u.s-sanctions-hurt-iranian-internet-activists/

Ridiculous things end up being affected by economic sanctions even if those things are in and of themselves exempt. Hell, in the 1990s there were export controls imposed by the US on SSL encryption in browsers.

The sanctions are broad enough that almost anything can be included under them, even if it's technically "exempt".

It is not the law itself or it's interpretation that is the issue here but rather the actions of players in the private sector certain banks and a certain Bitcoin developer come to mind here in response to the sanctions. The classic case (This actually happened with Somalia), where a bank would instead of blocking only those transactions affected by the sanctions blocks all transactions. This has the effect of making the sanctions far worse by impacting innocent persons who were not the target of the sanctions in the first place. What happened in this thread is just as bad.

becoin

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Quote from: repentance on December 01, 2012, 03:24:27 PM

Quote from: Gabi on December 01, 2012, 03:15:57 PM

I have a question: what would happen if a iran guy in iran make a new bitcoin client and we download and use it? US drone will bomb us? We are terrorists?

The cynic in me is inclined to say that if the US government thought it had the potential to totally fuck the Iranian economy they'd probably fund it under the table.

Well, what you are basically saying is that Americans using bitcoin are totally fucking the American economy? Errr I thought that using honest money like gold, silver and bicoin is useful for every economy, not harmful?! May be you should make a distinction between fucking an economy and fucking a government?

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: gmaxwell on December 01, 2012, 04:06:22 PM

Quote from: smoothie on December 01, 2012, 03:29:29 PM

Who is he to tell others what they can and can't do?

Who are you (and most of the other people in this thread) to tell other people how to run a chat channel which they use and contribute to and you do not?

Are you serious? *facepalm*

gmaxwell

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Quote from: smoothie on December 01, 2012, 03:29:29 PM

Who is he to tell others what they can and can't do?

Who are you (and most of the other people in this thread) to tell other people how to run a chat channel which they use and contribute to and you do not?

repentance

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Quote from: ArticMine on December 01, 2012, 03:28:00 PM

Why not simply read the US sanctions document from the US Treasury and find out?

I know it sounds that simple but like any laws it's all in the interpretation until they're successfully challenged.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/20/us-iran-usa-sanctions-idUSBRE82J18Z20120320

http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-57402034-281/how-u.s-sanctions-hurt-iranian-internet-activists/

Ridiculous things end up being affected by economic sanctions even if those things are in and of themselves exempt. Hell, in the 1990s there were export controls imposed by the US on SSL encryption in browsers.

The sanctions are broad enough that almost anything can be included under them, even if it's technically "exempt".

ShadowOfHarbringer

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Quote from: ?? on ??

How about you put some time into getting changes you've made to Bitcoin client become implemented in official client? Let us know why it failed.

Oh, it is a very simple answer. There are multiple reasons, all of them perfectly understandable:
1. My fork (you should call it patch actually) is too simple to be considered for pull-request and to be included in official client
2. I'm not a C/C++ programmer, the code i would produce would be shitty.
3. I don't have time to learn C/C++ properly to make a PROPER fork, so i stick with this patch of mine.
4. None of the official devs, or even alternative client devs care about the feature I want. Actually, even many "normal" people don't care, so that isn't a surprise.

Quote from: ?? on ??

Once Bitcoin is overtaken and become used as one world currency, it won't matter if each and every one of us came up with unique client or coin.

People will always have the freedom to choose if they want to use the official client, or one of the other clients. And there are already multiple clients plus several more clients on-the-way. So you will ALWAYS have choice.

And, If you don't like the set of choises you have, you can write/fork your own. If you know how to do it.

Quote from: ?? on ??

You seems to be unaware of where the world is heading to. Enjoy "freedom" while it lasts.

No surprise there, I know exactly where the world is going - it is going into totalitarian state mode.
The difference between me and you is that i think that Bitcoin, together with Internet, Linux, TOR, Freenet, I2P, OpenVPN and many other OS technologies can stop that from happening.

Raoul Duke

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Quote from: Gabi on December 01, 2012, 03:22:34 PM

Quote from: Raoul Duke on December 01, 2012, 03:20:50 PM

Quote from: Gabi on December 01, 2012, 03:15:57 PM

I have a question: what would happen if a iran guy in iran make a new bitcoin client and we download and use it? US drone will bomb us? We are terrorists?

I will never download software made by terrorists. Roll Eyes

Even if it's open source and better than what we have?

eh, your sarcasm detectors are broken.

Isn't the whole thread about someone not wanting talks about a certain country because a certain government decided they're all terrorists, even folks like you and me?

Now for real: In my view the US gov. is the biggest terrorist of them all, therefore every american citizen or inhabitant is a terrorist and I despise you all and wish you all die in the flames of hell.

OK, maybe it wasn't that much "for real"...

ShadowOfHarbringer

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on December 01, 2012, 02:08:33 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

You're obviously unaware of serious disadvantages of Open Source model. Why not check some articles on how HTML 5.0 came into being?
You should be able to realise how easy is to manufacture consensus, which is about removing any chance for oppossition to fight back, ever.

OMG, what the hell you are talking about ?
I'm starting to think you're delirious or trolling.

Actually, i have perfect proof that what you said above is total crap. This topic. This very topic is the perfect example that proves that it is extremely difficult it is to manufacture consensus in the Open Source world !

Really? What you are obviously not aware of is that you, me and everyone else oppossing jgarzik lost the battle before it even started.

Incorrect again.

This is similiar situation to the topic of Bitcoin Foundation establishment. And guess what - somebody made a poll asking "do you support bitcoin foundation", and about 30-40% (if memory serves me right) responded that they do not trust the foundation (do some searching, the poll is still on the forum).

This is not a centralized project and nobody tells us what to think.

smoothie

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Wow just reading that pastebin also made me lose much respect for Jeff.

Who is he to tell others what they can and can't do?

If they wanted to do something illegal then that is their choice.

Perhaps he had a right to ban that guy but trying to shove your morals down someone else's throat is wrong.

Bitcoin is free-market money. Who cares what the government(s) thinks.

Jeff is only mad because he is holding a ton of bitcoins and don't want bitcoin to get bad attention.

Cheesy

ArticMine

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Quote from: Gabi on December 01, 2012, 03:15:57 PM

I have a question: what would happen if a iran guy in iran make a new bitcoin client and we download and use it? US drone will bomb us? We are terrorists?

Why not simply read the US sanctions document from the US Treasury and find out?

This entire thread is predicated on the assumption that the activity mentioned is the article is actually illegal in the United States. If this turns out to be false then most the arguments being passionately debated here become moot.

Now back the original issue raised by the OP. I believe there is way more than enough reasonable doubt with respect to the illegality in the United States of what Jeremias promoted on #bitcoin-dev for Jeremias to be re-instated.

repentance

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Quote from: Gabi on December 01, 2012, 03:15:57 PM

I have a question: what would happen if a iran guy in iran make a new bitcoin client and we download and use it? US drone will bomb us? We are terrorists?

The cynic in me is inclined to say that if the US government thought it had the potential to totally fuck the Iranian economy they'd probably fund it under the table.

Gabi

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If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat

Quote from: Raoul Duke on December 01, 2012, 03:20:50 PM

Quote from: Gabi on December 01, 2012, 03:15:57 PM

I have a question: what would happen if a iran guy in iran make a new bitcoin client and we download and use it? US drone will bomb us? We are terrorists?

I will never download software made by terrorists. Roll Eyes

Even if it's open source and better than what we have?

ShadowOfHarbringer

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Quote from: becoin on December 01, 2012, 03:09:31 PM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on December 01, 2012, 03:01:26 PM

You don't understand what you are talking about.

I know, I know. You don't know that the Gopher protocol presented an alternative to the World Wide Web

Where did you guess that from ? Surely not from my post.

FIY, i used gopher and telnet intensively in high school. SSH barely even existed yet (as did internet banking or firewalls) and everybody used unencrypted protocols for freaking e.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g. We also played Text-MMO's (called "MUDs") before even the "MMO" name was invented. So yeah, I know how the internet looked before the WWW era.

Raoul Duke

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Quote from: Gabi on December 01, 2012, 03:15:57 PM

I have a question: what would happen if a iran guy in iran make a new bitcoin client and we download and use it? US drone will bomb us? We are terrorists?

I will never download software made by terrorists. Roll Eyes

Gabi

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If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat

I have a question: what would happen if a iran guy in iran make a new bitcoin client and we download and use it? US drone will bomb us? We are terrorists?

repentance

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One interesting question I think this discussion raises is whether Bitcoin is mature enough yet to survive without the official client being updated. If the core devs walked away from Bitcoin tomorrow, what would that mean for the future of Bitcoin? Another question is whether Bitcoin has now become overly dependent on those who are "in it for the money" - let's face it, people aren't spending tens of thousands of dollars on ASICs to maintain the network - and what that means for the future of Bitcoin.

becoin

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Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on December 01, 2012, 03:01:26 PM

You don't understand what you are talking about.

I know, I know. You don't know that the Gopher protocol presented an alternative to the World Wide Web in its early stages, but I'm the one that doesn't understand how the Internet is working, huh?

Topic: jgarzik goes berzerk in #bitcoin-dev, wtf? - page 5. (Read 29038 times)