jgarzik goes berzerk in #bitcoin-dev, wtf? - page 7.

Raoul Duke

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Quote from: casascius on November 30, 2012, 01:10:17 PM

Quote from: Technomage on November 30, 2012, 01:06:03 PM

but I would certainly like to hear Jeff's take on it at some point.

Would you like to hear Jeff's take on it when his words are on the record, or what Jeff's take on it would be if the two of you were sitting at a bar? I don't know Jeff personally, but my reading of the situation suggests they'd be drastically different.

They have a name for that: hypocrisy.

ShadowOfHarbringer

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Quote from: jgarzik on December 01, 2012, 12:53:19 PM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on December 01, 2012, 08:51:33 AM

It may be too late for the long game, since Iranians apparently already know about Bitcoin, and by prolonging discussion in this thread you only increase the probability that even more Iranians will get to know Bitcoin because of viral Streissand Effect which you created with your censorship act.

Let's see. What if one knew ahead of time that

the forum is full of idiot trolls
the chat logs are watched closely by said trolls

Like I said. Chess.

Phinnaeus Gage

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Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending

Quote from: evoorhees on December 01, 2012, 06:51:19 AM

Fact 1: The US Government is trying to subvert the Iranian Government

Fact 2: Much of any government's power comes from its ability to print and control currency

Fact 3: Bitcoin, to the extent that it's used instead of a national currency, removes power from governments

Conclusion 1: Perhaps the US Gov should be covertly promoting and disseminating Bitcoin in Iran. What better way to bring down the regime than to collapse its currency and empower the citizens with a tool to resist the regime monetarily?

In other words, the State Dept. should help with the Farsi translations.

This would work--short term. Imagine if some US entity did approach say the TBF and asked for their help to implement this. And let's say the members of the TBF obliged. Down the road, said entity will request of further help with some other regime, crisis, whatever, but this time the TBF members reply with no-can-do for some reason. At this point, the US entity threatens them with if-you-don't-we're-telling-what-you-did-back-when. See the quagmire?

~Bruno K~

ShadowOfHarbringer

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(I don't know if you are talking to me or not, so I will answer just in case)

Quote from: ?? on ??

Your suggesting bitcoin development should be done behind closed doors?

No, development can be done openly even if all devs are known only under their nicknames. IRC, Git, SSH, Email, Web forums - all of these can be accessed using TOR, I2P, Freenet, Gnunet and similiar technologies.

hazek

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Quote from: jgarzik on December 01, 2012, 12:53:19 PM

Satoshi also knew that you don't challenge the biggest governments on their biggest issues. That's just stupid.

Fallacy: begging the question.

It's a very subtle one but no one conceded this point as true upon which your argument is based so please first show how some random person talking about translating the Bitcoin source into farsi is challenging the biggest governments.

Also why couldn't you personally/individually have just ignored him to solve that "problem"?

SysRun

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Portland Bitcoin Group Organizer

100% heat, 0% light.

What do you do with a group of people who have similar interests but violently fundamental ideology? How can that work?

justusranvier

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This is an interesting book in its own right, but is most relevant to this thread for its tagline: http://www.starvingthemonkeys.com/

jgarzik

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Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on December 01, 2012, 08:51:33 AM

It may be too late for the long game, since Iranians apparently already know about Bitcoin, and by prolonging discussion in this thread you only increase the probability that even more Iranians will get to know Bitcoin because of viral Streissand Effect which you created with your censorship act.

Let's see. What if one knew ahead of time that

the forum is full of idiot trolls
the chat logs are watched closely by said trolls

Like I said. Chess.

Quote

The question is not if, but when this will happen. So if you are that much afraid of US govt, perhaps you should either move to Europe or disappear from the Internet and return under different, TORified and anonymous identity, just like I2P devs did. Satoshi knew exactly what he was doing - this is why he remains anonymous.

Re-read the very first link in my long post... to a Satoshi post. Satoshi also knew that you don't challenge the biggest governments on their biggest issues. That's just stupid.

paulie_w

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Quote

you people that exposed yourselves are a major threat to it.

as fucking crazy as you usually seem, unfortunately i think you might be right.

paulie_w

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Quote

Satoshi knew exactly what he was doing - this is why he remains anonymous.

jgarzik could be satoshi for all you know..

sunnankar

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Quote from: BkkCoins on December 01, 2012, 09:22:05 AM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on December 01, 2012, 08:38:30 AM

Quote from: evoorhees on December 01, 2012, 06:51:19 AM

Fact 1: The US Government is trying to subvert the Iranian Government

Fact 2: Much of any government's power comes from its ability to print and control currency

Fact 3: Bitcoin, to the extent that it's used instead of a national currency, removes power from governments

Conclusion 1: Perhaps the US Gov should be covertly promoting and disseminating Bitcoin in Iran. What better way to bring down the regime than to collapse its currency and empower the citizens with a tool to resist the regime monetarily?

In other words, the State Dept. should help with the Farsi translations.

This is actually GENIUS. Quite seriously. It turns whole matter around.

Even more genius is to use Bitcoin for that purpose until it's pretty much successful and then turn around and hit Bitcoin with full force as violating sanctions in order to make sure as Iran falls so does Bitcoin. Muahahaha.

Precisely. But there could be blowback like with the CIA and Al Qaeda.

But screwing with decentralized open-source software is very risky because due to the increased complexity of work resulting from cooperation without coordination (highly recommend watching!) the software can mutate and grow at exponential rates which results in it quickly becoming uncontrollable.

200 days is long enough to filter out any short-term news, like WordPress announcement, etc. and reveal the long-term secular trend. Here is a 200 day moving average of Bitcoin's market capitalization:

thebitcoinchannel

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Quote from: evoorhees on December 01, 2012, 06:51:19 AM

Fact 1: The US Government is trying to subvert the Iranian Government

Fact 2: Much of any government's power comes from its ability to print and control currency

Fact 3: Bitcoin, to the extent that it's used instead of a national currency, removes power from governments

Conclusion 1: Perhaps the US Gov should be covertly promoting and disseminating Bitcoin in Iran. What better way to bring down the regime than to collapse its currency and empower the citizens with a tool to resist the regime monetarily?

In other words, the State Dept. should help with the Farsi translations.

Perhaps, or perhaps not. Would converting a country's economy over to bitcoin stabilize it or destabilize it in the long run? If in the US we abolished the FED and the IRS, and went to a free market based system of competing currencies, would that make things more stable or less? The fact is that the Rial has already collapsed:

"On September 25, 2012, the Iranian rial fell to a new low, trading at 26,500 to the US dollar. The drop followed the government's launch of a foreign exchange centre a day before, that would provide importers of some basic goods with foreign exchanges, at a rate about 2% cheaper than the open market rate on a given day. The announced rate at the centre on September 24, 2012 was 23,620 rials to USD.[23] By early October 2012, Rial had further fell in value to about 38,500 Rials per USD."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_rial

If the currency has already collapsed but the regime has not, what does that portend? Turkey sure seems desperate to raise as much gold as they can lately.

http://www.blanchardonline.com/investing-news-blog/econ.php?article=5088
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/iran-gold-imports-turkey-surge-8-billion-ytd-gold-increasingly-used-currency
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/29/world/meast/turkey-iran-gold-for-oil/index.html

<----- Grabs more popcorn....

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: benjamindees on December 01, 2012, 09:29:21 AM

Nothing like an otherwise irrelevant display of irreverent free speech to bring out the uncritical Legalists among us.

Quote from: Polvos on December 01, 2012, 08:25:28 AM

I see this kind of chess game, USA Government Vs garzik and foundation members:

This is perfect. Unfortunately, only perhaps 1% of those here will actually understand it.

Bitcoin is on the left, I presume.

benjamindees

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Nothing like an otherwise irrelevant display of irreverent free speech to bring out the uncritical Legalists among us.

Quote from: Polvos on December 01, 2012, 08:25:28 AM

I see this kind of chess game, USA Government Vs garzik and foundation members:

This is perfect. Unfortunately, only perhaps 1% of those here will actually understand it.

BkkCoins

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firstbits:1MinerQ

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on December 01, 2012, 08:38:30 AM

Quote from: evoorhees on December 01, 2012, 06:51:19 AM

Fact 1: The US Government is trying to subvert the Iranian Government

Fact 2: Much of any government's power comes from its ability to print and control currency

Fact 3: Bitcoin, to the extent that it's used instead of a national currency, removes power from governments

Conclusion 1: Perhaps the US Gov should be covertly promoting and disseminating Bitcoin in Iran. What better way to bring down the regime than to collapse its currency and empower the citizens with a tool to resist the regime monetarily?

In other words, the State Dept. should help with the Farsi translations.

This is actually GENIUS. Quite seriously. It turns whole matter around.

Even more genius is to use Bitcoin for that purpose until it's pretty much successful and then turn around and hit Bitcoin with full force as violating sanctions in order to make sure as Iran falls so does Bitcoin. Muahahaha.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: Polvos on December 01, 2012, 09:01:07 AM

Yeah, sure. The USA is going to comit the same mistake twice? Do you remember when they allowed the Persian Sha to print their own 100$ bills? Are you sure the USA is interested in spread a system designed to destroy the rial, and after that, the dollar too?

That's what they do best.

Polvos

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Quote from: evoorhees on December 01, 2012, 06:51:19 AM

Conclusion 1: Perhaps the US Gov should be covertly promoting and disseminating Bitcoin in Iran. What better way to bring down the regime than to collapse its currency and empower the citizens with a tool to resist the regime monetarily?

In other words, the State Dept. should help with the Farsi translations.

Yeah, sure. The USA is going to comit the same mistake twice? Do you remember when they allowed the Persian Sha to print their own 100$ bills? Are you sure the USA is interested in spread a system designed to destroy the rial, and after that, the dollar too?

Occam's razor: Jeremias was banned because Garzik was trying to hide a USA covert operation vs the rial or simply he shitted his pants? In my opinion the answer is clear.

ShadowOfHarbringer

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@jgarzik

I generally agree with you on most points, however there is a logical concept you don't seem to grasp:

Quote from: jgarzik on November 30, 2012, 11:40:51 PM

In short, if you care about bitcoin, if you want bitcoin to survive long term, you need to play a long game.

It may be too late for the long game, since Iranians apparently already know about Bitcoin, and by prolonging discussion in this thread you only increase the probability that even more Iranians will get to know Bitcoin because of viral Streissand Effect which you created with your censorship act.

So i would say the thing to do now is prepare for shit hitting the fan once Iranians start taking Bitcoin seriously and US government notices the issue.

The question is not if, but when this will happen. So if you are that much afraid of US govt, perhaps you should either move to Europe or disappear from the Internet and return under different, TORified and anonymous identity, just like I2P devs did. Satoshi knew exactly what he was doing - this is why he remains anonymous.

ShadowOfHarbringer

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Quote from: evoorhees on December 01, 2012, 06:51:19 AM

Fact 1: The US Government is trying to subvert the Iranian Government

Fact 2: Much of any government's power comes from its ability to print and control currency

Fact 3: Bitcoin, to the extent that it's used instead of a national currency, removes power from governments

Conclusion 1: Perhaps the US Gov should be covertly promoting and disseminating Bitcoin in Iran. What better way to bring down the regime than to collapse its currency and empower the citizens with a tool to resist the regime monetarily?

In other words, the State Dept. should help with the Farsi translations.

This is actually GENIUS. Quite seriously. It turns whole matter around.

Polvos

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Nefario claimed he was playing "the long game too" and tried to put GLBSE full legit until he came here crying about shutting it down because the Government made stalemate showing him the road to the can.

Nice. Now we have to be careful with our government and to be careful with our devs because they are willing to start a chess game they aren't going to win

I see this kind of chess game, USA Government Vs garzik and foundation members:

Topic: jgarzik goes berzerk in #bitcoin-dev, wtf? - page 7. (Read 28980 times)