but in terms of strategy of presentation, we should always be playing the long game.
It is amazing to read so many people here pretending they are good chess players playing 'the long game'. You are not a good player if you think your opponent is an idiot! Bitcoin is a way to circumvent government and escape from monetary slavery. Any government! You're an idiot if you think people working in the respective government agencies are idiots! 
Topic: jgarzik goes berzerk in #bitcoin-dev, wtf? - page 8. (Read 29037 times)
A while ago, a member of the forum here suggested that an organ/tissue market should be set up for Bitcoin. Indeed, Bitcoin would be great for that, and absolutely people have the right to buy and sell organs (so long as they aren't stolen from someone else).
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/30/chinese_kidney_for_ipad_sentencing/
I'll just leave that here.
As for the bigger picture, it is important that readers review
In short, if you care about bitcoin, if you want bitcoin to survive long term, you need to play a long game.
In particular, big governments have committed billions of dollars and a small specops army to interdicting what they consider their major enemies. Just about the worst thing you can do is look at the targets of the Big Guys -- Iran, North Korea, Taliban, jihadi terrorists -- and put bitcoin squarely in their crosshairs.
Right now bitcoin is weak; a few thousand listening nodes run by hobbyists are all that holds the network together. The switch from GPU/FPGA to ASIC will bring an increase in network strength -- but it also consolidates hash production power in a tiny handful of startup companies. If you think bitcoin can right now sustain a targeted cyber attack, you are dead wrong.
On the legal front, it is also quite clear that law enforcement is taking an active look at bitcoin. There is an active SEC investigation into Pirate-related activities (good; clear out the swamp). The DEA is most certainly looking at Silk Road. The FBI produced an in-depth report on bitcoin, and talks actively about bitcoin at anti-money-laundering conferences.
It is therefore logical to conclude that IRC, forum and other activities are being continually monitored for evidence that can be used in a court of law.
That makes it all the more rich when anonymous forum trolls hurl charges of "cowardice!" and "treason!" when these trolls are neither (a) using their real name, nor (b) contributing in any meaningful way, nor (c) a High Value Target. Teenaged crypto-anarchists may love to mock the "sheeple" who follow the laws of their jurisdiction, but at the end of the day, they just move back into their parents' house if they run into trouble. Not that easy for me.
Just like a great many of people I would like to introduce to bitcoin, I am a law-abiding US citizen, using my real name, in public, volunteering my time to work on multiple bitcoin implementations. Businesses like WordPress are law-abiding businesses. It is logical and normal to expect people to follow the laws of their country.
That is the most revealing, the most saddening part about this thread. In a short-sighted attempt to be a morally pure crypto-anarchist, you could ruin the true monetary freedom bitcoin brings, for the billions on this planet.
- The logic behind Satoshi's Admonition, no don't "bring it on"
- My own Bitcoin Mini-Manifesto
- Sun Tzu's Art Of War
- And learn how to play chess.
In short, if you care about bitcoin, if you want bitcoin to survive long term, you need to play a long game.
In particular, big governments have committed billions of dollars and a small specops army to interdicting what they consider their major enemies. Just about the worst thing you can do is look at the targets of the Big Guys -- Iran, North Korea, Taliban, jihadi terrorists -- and put bitcoin squarely in their crosshairs.
Right now bitcoin is weak; a few thousand listening nodes run by hobbyists are all that holds the network together. The switch from GPU/FPGA to ASIC will bring an increase in network strength -- but it also consolidates hash production power in a tiny handful of startup companies. If you think bitcoin can right now sustain a targeted cyber attack, you are dead wrong.
On the legal front, it is also quite clear that law enforcement is taking an active look at bitcoin. There is an active SEC investigation into Pirate-related activities (good; clear out the swamp). The DEA is most certainly looking at Silk Road. The FBI produced an in-depth report on bitcoin, and talks actively about bitcoin at anti-money-laundering conferences.
It is therefore logical to conclude that IRC, forum and other activities are being continually monitored for evidence that can be used in a court of law.
That makes it all the more rich when anonymous forum trolls hurl charges of "cowardice!" and "treason!" when these trolls are neither (a) using their real name, nor (b) contributing in any meaningful way, nor (c) a High Value Target. Teenaged crypto-anarchists may love to mock the "sheeple" who follow the laws of their jurisdiction, but at the end of the day, they just move back into their parents' house if they run into trouble. Not that easy for me.
Just like a great many of people I would like to introduce to bitcoin, I am a law-abiding US citizen, using my real name, in public, volunteering my time to work on multiple bitcoin implementations. Businesses like WordPress are law-abiding businesses. It is logical and normal to expect people to follow the laws of their country.
That is the most revealing, the most saddening part about this thread. In a short-sighted attempt to be a morally pure crypto-anarchist, you could ruin the true monetary freedom bitcoin brings, for the billions on this planet.
I agree with Garzik generally on these points. Specifically, on the Sun Tzu point. I won't comment on whether it was right to ban anyone from anything, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with making a Farsi translation, but in terms of strategy of presentation, we should always be playing the long game.
A while ago, a member of the forum here suggested that an organ/tissue market should be set up for Bitcoin. Indeed, Bitcoin would be great for that, and absolutely people have the right to buy and sell organs (so long as they aren't stolen from someone else). However, I recommended strongly against such an operation, not because I'm opposed to organ markets, but because it would be foolish from a strategic perspective.
Strategy and tactics, gentlemen.
The wider spread, on different IP networks, the better. Our accessible P2P network is something like 0.2% the size of the Azureus Island (total accessible Azureus/Vuze), and an even smaller fraction of the total active-at-any-one-time bittorrent userbase. In file sharing terms, we are barely to the level of a popular torrent.
Have any devs ever talked about maybe making BitTorrent client plugins that act as a Bitcoin node (with empty wallet?) as a step to piggybacking on BitTorrent popularity. The added traffic would be trivial in comparison to file downloading. If getting the node count up is important then this seems like it has potential.Absolutely. Or even better, maybe the plugin would permit you to send somebody bitcoins in exchange for a file, or file storage.
Is Bitcoin ready for a fight with MPAA? Because as soon as you offer "Imma gonna pay you for your illegal copy of that movie" functionality, you know MPAA will be lawyering up like crazy.
Fact 1: The US Government is trying to subvert the Iranian Government
Fact 2: Much of any government's power comes from its ability to print and control currency
Fact 3: Bitcoin, to the extent that it's used instead of a national currency, removes power from governments
Conclusion 1: Perhaps the US Gov should be covertly promoting and disseminating Bitcoin in Iran. What better way to bring down the regime than to collapse its currency and empower the citizens with a tool to resist the regime monetarily?
In other words, the State Dept. should help with the Farsi translations.
Fact 2: Much of any government's power comes from its ability to print and control currency
Fact 3: Bitcoin, to the extent that it's used instead of a national currency, removes power from governments
Conclusion 1: Perhaps the US Gov should be covertly promoting and disseminating Bitcoin in Iran. What better way to bring down the regime than to collapse its currency and empower the citizens with a tool to resist the regime monetarily?
In other words, the State Dept. should help with the Farsi translations.
The wider spread, on different IP networks, the better. Our accessible P2P network is something like 0.2% the size of the Azureus Island (total accessible Azureus/Vuze), and an even smaller fraction of the total active-at-any-one-time bittorrent userbase. In file sharing terms, we are barely to the level of a popular torrent.
Have any devs ever talked about maybe making BitTorrent client plugins that act as a Bitcoin node (with empty wallet?) as a step to piggybacking on BitTorrent popularity. The added traffic would be trivial in comparison to file downloading. If getting the node count up is important then this seems like it has potential.Absolutely. Or even better, maybe the plugin would permit you to send somebody bitcoins in exchange for a file, or file storage.
As for the bigger picture, it is important that readers review
In short, if you care about bitcoin, if you want bitcoin to survive long term, you need to play a long game.
In particular, big governments have committed billions of dollars and a small specops army to interdicting what they consider their major enemies. Just about the worst thing you can do is look at the targets of the Big Guys -- Iran, North Korea, Taliban, jihadi terrorists -- and put bitcoin squarely in their crosshairs.
Right now bitcoin is weak; a few thousand listening nodes run by hobbyists are all that holds the network together. The switch from GPU/FPGA to ASIC will bring an increase in network strength -- but it also consolidates hash production power in a tiny handful of startup companies. If you think bitcoin can right now sustain a targeted cyber attack, you are dead wrong.
On the legal front, it is also quite clear that law enforcement is taking an active look at bitcoin. There is an active SEC investigation into Pirate-related activities (good; clear out the swamp). The DEA is most certainly looking at Silk Road. The FBI produced an in-depth report on bitcoin, and talks actively about bitcoin at anti-money-laundering conferences.
It is therefore logical to conclude that IRC, forum and other activities are being continually monitored for evidence that can be used in a court of law.
That makes it all the more rich when anonymous forum trolls hurl charges of "cowardice!" and "treason!" when these trolls are neither (a) using their real name, nor (b) contributing in any meaningful way, nor (c) a High Value Target. Teenaged crypto-anarchists may love to mock the "sheeple" who follow the laws of their jurisdiction, but at the end of the day, they just move back into their parents' house if they run into trouble. Not that easy for me.
Just like a great many of people I would like to introduce to bitcoin, I am a law-abiding US citizen, using my real name, in public, volunteering my time to work on multiple bitcoin implementations. Businesses like WordPress are law-abiding businesses. It is logical and normal to expect people to follow the laws of their country.
That is the most revealing, the most saddening part about this thread. In a short-sighted attempt to be a morally pure crypto-anarchist, you could ruin the true monetary freedom bitcoin brings, for the billions on this planet.
It is even worse than I thought.- The logic behind Satoshi's Admonition, no don't "bring it on"
- My own Bitcoin Mini-Manifesto
- Sun Tzu's Art Of War
- And learn how to play chess.
In short, if you care about bitcoin, if you want bitcoin to survive long term, you need to play a long game.
In particular, big governments have committed billions of dollars and a small specops army to interdicting what they consider their major enemies. Just about the worst thing you can do is look at the targets of the Big Guys -- Iran, North Korea, Taliban, jihadi terrorists -- and put bitcoin squarely in their crosshairs.
Right now bitcoin is weak; a few thousand listening nodes run by hobbyists are all that holds the network together. The switch from GPU/FPGA to ASIC will bring an increase in network strength -- but it also consolidates hash production power in a tiny handful of startup companies. If you think bitcoin can right now sustain a targeted cyber attack, you are dead wrong.
On the legal front, it is also quite clear that law enforcement is taking an active look at bitcoin. There is an active SEC investigation into Pirate-related activities (good; clear out the swamp). The DEA is most certainly looking at Silk Road. The FBI produced an in-depth report on bitcoin, and talks actively about bitcoin at anti-money-laundering conferences.
It is therefore logical to conclude that IRC, forum and other activities are being continually monitored for evidence that can be used in a court of law.
That makes it all the more rich when anonymous forum trolls hurl charges of "cowardice!" and "treason!" when these trolls are neither (a) using their real name, nor (b) contributing in any meaningful way, nor (c) a High Value Target. Teenaged crypto-anarchists may love to mock the "sheeple" who follow the laws of their jurisdiction, but at the end of the day, they just move back into their parents' house if they run into trouble. Not that easy for me.
Just like a great many of people I would like to introduce to bitcoin, I am a law-abiding US citizen, using my real name, in public, volunteering my time to work on multiple bitcoin implementations. Businesses like WordPress are law-abiding businesses. It is logical and normal to expect people to follow the laws of their country.
That is the most revealing, the most saddening part about this thread. In a short-sighted attempt to be a morally pure crypto-anarchist, you could ruin the true monetary freedom bitcoin brings, for the billions on this planet.
In short, if you care about bitcoin, if you want bitcoin to survive long term, you need to resign from core devs group. You just don't understand what bitcoin is and what would be the consequences for the state, politics, economy, and generally for the society if bitcoin succeeds! You don't understand that bitcoin success is incompatible with the laws of a police and militaristic state where personal freedom is just an empty word!
I suggest you write an open (or not so open) letter to the government asking for their mercy and then try to deserve it by coding a back door in the bitcoin client to allow some agencies better monitor all bitcoin transfers from and to Iran? Because, face it, this is exactly what every 'law-abiding US citizen' is supposed to do these days!
The wider spread, on different IP networks, the better. Our accessible P2P network is something like 0.2% the size of the Azureus Island (total accessible Azureus/Vuze), and an even smaller fraction of the total active-at-any-one-time bittorrent userbase. In file sharing terms, we are barely to the level of a popular torrent.
Have any devs ever talked about maybe making BitTorrent client plugins that act as a Bitcoin node (with empty wallet?) as a step to piggybacking on BitTorrent popularity. The added traffic would be trivial in comparison to file downloading. If getting the node count up is important then this seems like it has potential.Absolutely. Or even better, maybe the plugin would permit you to send somebody bitcoins in exchange for a file, or file storage.
This same type of situation happened in #bitcoin with me. I was simply trying to help newer bitcoin users secure their computer and wallet(s) and the different strategies that can be used, and ended up getting banned by gmaxwell. Some of these people act like petulant children.
i say we let bitcoin grow a little bit before we pick a fight.
The wider spread, on different IP networks, the better. Our accessible P2P network is something like 0.2% the size of the Azureus Island (total accessible Azureus/Vuze), and an even smaller fraction of the total active-at-any-one-time bittorrent userbase. In file sharing terms, we are barely to the level of a popular torrent.
Have any devs ever talked about maybe making BitTorrent client plugins that act as a Bitcoin node (with empty wallet?) as a step to piggybacking on BitTorrent popularity. The added traffic would be trivial in comparison to file downloading. If getting the node count up is important then this seems like it has potential.If you think bitcoin can right now sustain a targeted cyber attack, you are dead wrong.
This seems like a bug.Help fix it
Average people can help simply by running a full node that accepts incoming connections from the Internet. Just download the client and run it, 24/7 -- ideally with an empty wallet for maximum security. Or maybe make a bitcoin clone of torservers.net, a vehicle where people may donate to strengthen the network.
The wider spread, on different IP networks, the better. Our accessible P2P network is something like 0.2% the size of the Azureus Island (total accessible Azureus/Vuze), and an even smaller fraction of the total active-at-any-one-time bittorrent userbase. In file sharing terms, we are barely to the level of a popular torrent.
If you can afford it, get an ASIC or FPGA unit, and mine. Mine p2pool or at a smaller pool, rather than a big pool. The more decentralized the mining power, the better. But even just running a full node is a huge contribution.
Test the pre-release of the next Bitcoin client, 0.8. Automated, might-crash-and-eat-your-data builds at http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/
If you are a programmer, help implement and test SPV mode clients. There is a long list of projects that will improve the decentralization, performance, diversity and resilience of the network, that simply are not coded yet. There are many tests, but many more need writing. There are high standards, but we will answer all technical questions if you have the patience to ask them! This is one of those engineering projects where any mistake can be, literally, costly.
And that is just the technical side. On the cultural side, do something that makes bitcoins interesting, appealing and friendly to others. Pick a project, an idea, a blog post that gets people excited about bitcoin in a positive, uplifting way. Think about how bitcoin can improve a person's or business's way of life.
If you think bitcoin can right now sustain a targeted cyber attack, you are dead wrong.
This seems like a bug.Hmm. Of course, I agree that bitcoin is extremely vulnerable. But what type of attack are we talking about here? The message is vague.
You are exploiting vague, unverifiable fears in order to encourage obedience. It is a dirty trick.
Can you make the concerns explicit and verifiable instead? This would keep everyone honest and rational. If not, it is probably best to avoid discussion of the issue entirely.
If you think bitcoin can right now sustain a targeted cyber attack, you are dead wrong.
This seems like a bug.Hopefully it more like a bug than like a feature. I wouldn't have an interest in Bitcoin if I thought so (using the term 'interest' in several ways.)
To me it sounds like a simple statement of fact by someone who knows his shit. In all of my speculation in BTC itself considerations of the Bitcoin solution and of other possible similar solutions, I have deliberately made the basic assumption that Jeff's statement is true (while hoping it is not.) This is why Bitcoin to be yet pretty experimental and a pretty risky place to park net worth.
If you think bitcoin can right now sustain a targeted cyber attack, you are dead wrong.
This seems like a bug.
Firstly, thanks Jeff for your explanation. Without it one could reasonably hypothesize that a fair fraction of the rational behind the action was simply a personal agreement that Iran as a nation and the Iranian people themselves are in 'our' way and should be squashed. Lots of people seem to feel this way and I personally feel that it is ugly, inhuman, and a crime against humanity (but that is neither here nor there.)
I have to say that I'm starting to agree with this. If the people in the US are too afraid of the US government, we have a problem. I'm not saying they shouldn't be afraid. Maybe they do need to be afraid. What I'm saying is that maybe we need to decentralize a little more. Having so many "major players" of Bitcoin in the US is not necessarily a very good thing.
I rather small minority of people seemed to have some concerns in the discussion about the formation of the Bitcoin Foundation, and this event seems to be among a class of issues that I had some qualms about. Whether Jeff's actions had much if anything to do with the Bitcoin Foundation I don't know. I do hope that as Bitcoin Foundation evolves some of the potential liabilities that it brings into existence will be considered and some thought put towards how to minimize them.
Someone stated smartly in THE Bitcoin Foundation thread that we need to separate de Bitcoin project from the USA.
Now we have USA devs, working in a Washington based foundation and forums with USA moderators fearing USA laws censoring worldwide users.
Fuck, I need a hamburguer now
Now we have USA devs, working in a Washington based foundation and forums with USA moderators fearing USA laws censoring worldwide users.
Fuck, I need a hamburguer now
I have to say that I'm starting to agree with this. If the people in the US are too afraid of the US government, we have a problem. I'm not saying they shouldn't be afraid. Maybe they do need to be afraid. What I'm saying is that maybe we need to decentralize a little more. Having so many "major players" of Bitcoin in the US is not necessarily a very good thing.
I rather small minority of people seemed to have some concerns in the discussion about the formation of the Bitcoin Foundation, and this event seems to be among a class of issues that I had some qualms about. Whether Jeff's actions had much if anything to do with the Bitcoin Foundation I don't know. I do hope that as Bitcoin Foundation evolves some of the potential liabilities that it brings into existence will be considered and some thought put towards how to minimize them.
With all due respect, it is logical and normal to expect people to inform themselves and to stand up against atrocities commited by their government in their name.
Why don't you lead by example and tell us about all the ways in which you are standing up against atrocities committed by your government (because no matter where you live, your government is either committing atrocities or supporting nations which do). Or are you just another armchair anarchist who would have watched safely from the sidelines while encouraging others to stand before the tanks in Tiananmen Square?
No, I am not an armchair anarchist. I don't even consider myself an anarchist. I did spend (literally spend) years of my life actively opposing immoral and illegal actions of the government of my own country during the Yugoslav civil war. I refused to serve in armed forces. My father did refuse too, and lost his job over it. In the midst of severe trade sanctions, with no legal ways to import or buy medications, fuel, spare parts, and occasionally food. No way of competing in the Olympics. No way of getting to read latest science journals at the university. How do you think city buses and hospitals operate under trade sanctions?
I never whined about it all, as I knew very well that actions of my own government were causing much greater suffering of people in the neighboring region. I spent days and nights in direct action groups, in clouds of tear gas, with rubber and occasionally real bullets flying around, being chased, beaten, and harassed by the riot police and undercover agents. We arrested our own president, and he died in prison some years later, for crimes much smaller than what each and every of Jeff Garzik's presidents typically commits in only a year.
There are some rather reasonable arguments in this thread as to why we should not openly promote Bitcoin as sanction-busting tool. I don't even think it would be a good tool for that purpose. But Jeff's words in IRC to me demonstrated a worrisome level of comfort with his own sociopathic government, and total disregard and disrespect of their innocent victims, who suffer much more than he would ever suffer even if the "evil government" nailed him. I hereby apologize if I misinterpreted his words as selfish and ignorant.
Thank you for reading this.
With all due respect, it is logical and normal to expect people to inform themselves and to stand up against atrocities commited by their government in their name.
Why don't you lead by example and tell us about all the ways in which you are standing up against atrocities committed by your government (because no matter where you live, your government is either committing atrocities or supporting nations which do). Or are you just another armchair anarchist who would have watched safely from the sidelines while encouraging others to stand before the tanks in Tiananmen Square?
somewhere along the line this thread just turned into a trollfest
I am going to have to agree with jgarzik here.
We as a community are asking for swift trouble from US govt bullies if we are actively marketing Bitcoin to Iran. It has nothing to do with whether it's legal, moral, ethical or not. We are lucky they have left this project alone thus far. Doing anything that looks like marketing to Iran will change that quickly.
Also, bitcoin-dev is a publicly logged channel. If I am a Bitcoin developer on a publicly logged chat channel where my actions could be scrutinized by the media and the world and someone wants to discuss Iran, kicking and banning in a publicly visible manner would be prudent. That is truly not a good place to talk about that subject.
I sure as hell would not want to discuss bringing Bitcoin to Iran in any place where my discussion was being logged and published.
We as a community are asking for swift trouble from US govt bullies if we are actively marketing Bitcoin to Iran. It has nothing to do with whether it's legal, moral, ethical or not. We are lucky they have left this project alone thus far. Doing anything that looks like marketing to Iran will change that quickly.
Also, bitcoin-dev is a publicly logged channel. If I am a Bitcoin developer on a publicly logged chat channel where my actions could be scrutinized by the media and the world and someone wants to discuss Iran, kicking and banning in a publicly visible manner would be prudent. That is truly not a good place to talk about that subject.
I sure as hell would not want to discuss bringing Bitcoin to Iran in any place where my discussion was being logged and published.
I'm only on page two of this thread, but so far I totally agree with this.
Using the dev chan to promote advertising BTC to Iran is ridiculous. The west is more serious about the Iranian sanctions now than they've ever been. Talking about using Bitcoin to skirt those sanctions is suicide for this community.
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