Topic: Just-Dice.com : now with added CLAMs : Play or Invest - page 52. (Read 454823 times)

Yep. 

dooglus seed is getting weaker as time goes by.

1 question sir, since i see that you are stakng the clam, how do your customer withdraw their winning?im new in altcoin thing, but from what i see, once coins start staking, it cant be moved

What are you getting at? I'm not sure if you're still misunderstanding things (like when you were talking about timing being important a few posts back) or not.

It's a gambling site, so of course it's not risk free for the play. They play exactly because they want risk. They risk some coins in the hope of winning more. If you remove 100% of the risk then it's not a gambling site any more. It's a paper wallet encased in concrete and buried in the forest.

So what's the risk you're not happy with?

Some I can think of:

1) you deposit, and I pretend you didn't
2) you withdraw, and I send it to the wrong address
3) I roll the wrong number to make you lose and hope you don't verify your rolls
4) I take the site down just as you're about to win big. "Sorry, we're closed"
5) I forcibly change your seeds "for technical reasons" just as you're about to win big
6) you ask to withdraw and I say "no, go away"

I would say that all of those are detectable. There's no way I can be sure to get away with any of them without people finding out.

Did I cover the risk you have in mind? Or is there more?

Except they can't figure out their seed. It is never 100% risk free for the user.

Safe from whose point of view?  You the user?  Or Doog the site administrator? 

For you it's safe.  It's showing that the rolls can not be manipulated in the sites favor. 

For Doog, not as safe.  If someone figured out their seed, they could in theory Clean house.   

This is exactly right.

I made a post in this thread describing how the rolls are generated just a few days ago:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10421193


Well, he won 3.5k then lost 2.5k... That's kind of a break... He was also over 1k in profit before he started yesterday:

So you can verify your rolls, it doesn't mean it's 100% safe but at least random.

It's like this:

1) the server picks a random "server seed" for your account
2) the server tells you the hash of the server seed, and you make a note of it
3) you pick a "client seed"
4) you make a bunch of bets - each roll is the result of hashing the two seeds (server and client) together with a nonce which is 1 for the first bet you make, and goes up by 1 for each subsequent bet you make
5) you click 'randomize'; the server publishes your server seed
6) go to 1

a) You then compare the hash of the server seed from (5) with the hash given in (2) to make sure that the seed you were given after you played matches the hash you were given before you played. That proves to you that the site committed to a particular server seed before you picked your client seed.

b) Then you use the server seed (5) and the client seed (3) to regenerate all the rolls you made. You can compare them with the rolls the site actually gave you.

Since the site provably picked the server seed before you played and before you told it your client seed (a), and since the site used those two seeds to generate all your rolls (b), there's no way the site could have cheated you.

So in a sense the rolls are random, since they depend on the server seed, which is random.

But in another sense the rolls are predetermined once you've picked your client seed, since the pair of seeds uniquely and completely determines all your future rolls.

Since you pick the client seed *after* we pick the server seed, we can't pick what numbers you are going to roll. The client seed has the final say on that, and that's entirely your decision.

If each roll was truly random, there would be no way for you to check whether the site was cheating. You play "less than 98", we pick "99". You lose. Did we cheat? We went to random.org and it told us 99. Honest! There's no way you can be sure we went to random.org and didn't just pick a number bigger than 98 to make you lose. So that's why we do it how we do - so that there's no way we can cheat the players.

On the other hand, we *can* cheat the investors. I can see what my next roll is going to be (it's 98.3610), and so I can be sure of winning it if I want to. That's the same with any provably fair site - you have to trust that the operator isn't going to play with knowledge of his upcoming rolls.

Here are the first 3 rolls I made with my current seed pair:



and here's my "prediction" of the 4th roll:



This is why, if I'm going to play against the investors for more than small amounts, I go to great lengths to prove that it's legit. For example:
  http://www.reddit.com/r/justdice/comments/1vbo1p/justdice_owner_plays_his_own_game_and_wins/

Edit: I made that 4th roll:

This is exactly right.

I made a post in this thread describing how the rolls are generated just a few days ago:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10421193


Well, he won 3.5k then lost 2.5k... That's kind of a break... He was also over 1k in profit before he started yesterday:

On a serious note, there is nothing "random" about the roll.  The nonce, and thus hash, and thus roll, would have been the same regardless of the timing of the "click".  There is no actively accumulated entropy in the "rng".

Poor BAC, can't get a break recently

It was an incredible session, thanks for the feedback. I don't want to ruin your comment but the very next roll would have been random so manybe not 99.x if he kept betting at 1% since he would not have clicked exactly at the same time and since it would be a different univers so a random result

People have asked about it before, but I don't think it would really work. The house edge is only 1%, and 90% of that goes to the investors. That means that the site only takes 0.1% of turnover on average. Affiliate programs usually pay way more than that, so we just can't compete.

You're welcome to refer people anyway, since now that you're invested you'll get a share of anything they lose. But I don't think a referral program is worth doing. I hate affiliate links in general anyway. It just encourages people to spam places.


Ha!

BayAreaCoins made some pretty big bets today on the site. He was up over 3000 on the day when he started betting 1 CLAM at 1%, trying to hit the 99x payout. After a bunch of losses he upped his bet to 2 CLAM, 5 CLAM, 10 CLAM. After 239 losing bets rolling 'hi' at 1% he gave up and switched to betting 1000 CLAMs at 49.5%, lo. And guess what... the very next roll was a 99.x and the 1% would finally have hit. He stopped playing exactly at the wrong time, at the end of a 239 bet losing streak:



It's lucky we're provably fair because nobody would believe it otherwise.

Ha!

BayAreaCoins made some pretty big bets today on the site. He was up over 3000 on the day when he started betting 1 CLAM at 1%, trying to hit the 99x payout. After a bunch of losses he upped his bet to 2 CLAM, 5 CLAM, 10 CLAM. After 239 losing bets rolling 'hi' at 1% he gave up and switched to betting 1000 CLAMs at 49.5%, lo. And guess what... the very next roll was a 99.x and the 1% would finally have hit. He stopped playing exactly at the wrong time, at the end of a 239 bet losing streak:



It's lucky we're provably fair because nobody would believe it otherwise.

Yeah, I was wondering why me seeds changed. I knew the exact two rolls after my last one (if I were to believe what was told to me.) And I thought I did it myself, and was like "oh no, I lost my magic seeds!"

All this while, I just assumed he randomized everyone when he re-launched with CLAMs, cuz, that would make the most sense.

...
It's lucky we're provably fair because nobody would believe it otherwise.