inb4 the license file can and will be cracked.
If you can afford a $30k unit, you can afford a cluster of GPU's to crack it.
If you can afford a $30k unit, you can afford a cluster of GPU's to crack it.
Best of luck with that.
Topic: LargeCoin Pricing Announced; Taking Pre-Orders - page 10. (Read 30323 times)
Best of luck with that.
Many people doubted strongly that an ASIC would come along at all, due to supposedly HUGE startup costs.
If the claims about how prohibitive the initial research/development costs would be are valid, surely it would seem incongruous to have the first few units produced be dirt cheap. Quite the contrary, surely it is to be expected that the first production units would be sold to a select clientele at a premium price? If the price of these first few units were in the "reasonable" price ranges you folk would like to see them at doubtless that would have been taken as further proof it must be a scam, due to the evident failure to attempt to recoup some of the "prohibitive" development costs...
-MarkM-
If the claims about how prohibitive the initial research/development costs would be are valid, surely it would seem incongruous to have the first few units produced be dirt cheap. Quite the contrary, surely it is to be expected that the first production units would be sold to a select clientele at a premium price? If the price of these first few units were in the "reasonable" price ranges you folk would like to see them at doubtless that would have been taken as further proof it must be a scam, due to the evident failure to attempt to recoup some of the "prohibitive" development costs...
-MarkM-
Well no. If one has a fixed cost of $1M then to amortize that over 1000 chips will be +$1000 over build cost per chip. If you ammortize that over 20,000 chips it is $50. If you amortize it over 100,000 chips it will be it will be $10 per chip.
ztex (as an example) won't get much lower prices even if he builds 10,000 boards BUT an ASIC w/ huge upfront costs acheives significantly lower cost by scaling production.
Keeping prices high for a select few means less units moved and higher cost per unit. Both company and customer lose. There also is the risk with high prices of slow volume and someone comes along w/ cheaper/faster/cooler unit before you ammortize. Then you are left holding the proverbial bag.
An example:
Hypothetically (excluding profit margin, risk, volume pricing on production runs, etc)
$1M NRE cost.
$100 wafer cost per chip (1 GH/s)
Sell 1000 chips = $100 ea + $1000 NRE share = $1100 per chip ($22,000 per 20GH/s box)
Sell 5,000 chips = $100 ea + $200 NRE share = $300 per chip ($6,000 per 20 GH/s box)
Sell 25,000 chips = $100 ea + $40 NRE = $140 per chip ($2,800 per 20 GH/s box)
etc...
So someone selling a few units at very high cost seems counterintuitive to the economics of ASICS. With ASIC your non sunk cost will be very low. It is in your best interest to undercut everyone else, be the clear choice and line up tens of millions of dollars in orders.
If you want to sell a few units at high premium get early access to 28nm chips. No sense and pricing them low as your cost won't go down much when ramping up volume.
I agree I was excited until I looked at the numbers and thought about the agreement.
1. $4500 is enough to build a fake and run off with the pre-orders.
2. No one knows for sure you can accomplish this.
3. You have no reputation, or testimonials of your past accomplishments.
4. I want to see your face, and more of web presence with an address and phone number
5. You can't start small by selling low cost systems as part of building your rep between now and July?
Well, I hope you are not a fraud as I would love to buy a system.
1. $4500 is enough to build a fake and run off with the pre-orders.
2. No one knows for sure you can accomplish this.
3. You have no reputation, or testimonials of your past accomplishments.
4. I want to see your face, and more of web presence with an address and phone number
5. You can't start small by selling low cost systems as part of building your rep between now and July?
Well, I hope you are not a fraud as I would love to buy a system.
I know that it doesn't prove anything, but during the past year ttul mentioned several times that they were working on an ASIC.
Many people doubted strongly that an ASIC would come along at all, due to supposedly HUGE startup costs.
If the claims about how prohibitive the initial research/development costs would be are valid, surely it would seem incongruous to have the first few units produced be dirt cheap. Quite the contrary, surely it is to be expected that the first production units would be sold to a select clientele at a premium price? If the price of these first few units were in the "reasonable" price ranges you folk would like to see them at doubtless that would have been taken as further proof it must be a scam, due to the evident failure to attempt to recoup some of the "prohibitive" development costs...
-MarkM-
If the claims about how prohibitive the initial research/development costs would be are valid, surely it would seem incongruous to have the first few units produced be dirt cheap. Quite the contrary, surely it is to be expected that the first production units would be sold to a select clientele at a premium price? If the price of these first few units were in the "reasonable" price ranges you folk would like to see them at doubtless that would have been taken as further proof it must be a scam, due to the evident failure to attempt to recoup some of the "prohibitive" development costs...
-MarkM-
If they sold them in Portugal they would need to give a 24 months warranty, wether they liked it or not.
Also, BFL said something about shipping from Germany, so I have good news. If they do that(and they said they would to avoid customs) they must follow European rules, and guess what: 2 years warranty
[...]
Also, if LargeCoin only sells to businesses the purchaser can get a VAT refund, at least, in Denmark (where I live), and I suspect also in most other EU countries. It seems almost like a waste of money to *not* purchase this as a business in the EU, where each member state is required to have a minimum VAT rate of 15%.
inb4 the license file can and will be cracked.
If you can afford a $30k unit, you can afford a cluster of GPU's to crack it.
If you can afford a $30k unit, you can afford a cluster of GPU's to crack it.
As many noted in this thread @ $30k a pop the ROI is terribly low and anyone investing in this would effectively be gambling for the next 24-36months hoping to get to breakeven and then start to profit.
I don't agree. The operating margin will always be 7 - 100x better with an ASIC-based mining rig versus an FPGA or GPU based rig. If you're placing a bet on Bitcoin, buying ASICs ensures you will receive an operating profit regardless of what happens to the exchange rate. Late last year, GPU miners had to switch off in many power jurisdictions. ASICs would have been strongly profitable the entire time.
You fail to understand my logic, Im not doubting in ASIC, I am stating that your product and its price is not a good investment.
Of course cheaper ASIC solutions would be a far better choice than GPU/FPGA.
As many noted in this thread @ $30k a pop the ROI is terribly low and anyone investing in this would effectively be gambling for the next 24-36months hoping to get to breakeven and then start to profit.
I don't agree. The operating margin will always be 7 - 100x better with an ASIC-based mining rig versus an FPGA or GPU based rig. If you're placing a bet on Bitcoin, buying ASICs ensures you will receive an operating profit regardless of what happens to the exchange rate. Late last year, GPU miners had to switch off in many power jurisdictions. ASICs would have been strongly profitable the entire time.
We've had orders for five at a time already.
You won't know for sure until money starts changing hands. Do you think we'll ever see a 42u rack completely filled with c200s?
That depends on whether anyone is willing to take such a sizeable wager on Bitcoin mining. A full rack costs $1.2M; but for that you'd get 800 GHash/s with still negligible power costs. Throw in $1,000/month for hosting the rack and you're still earning an operating profit of something like $80K/month at today's exchange rate and difficulty metric.
Im confused why you keep mentioning that this is meant for "Industrial operations", do you honestly think any large scale operation wouldnt raise an eyebrow at the terrible ROI proposed by this solution?
Yes, they are. We've had orders for five at a time already. Everyone knows that power efficiency is important with mining, but there hasn't been much mention of spatial efficiency. With ASICs, we can crank 7x more Bitcoins for the same power investment as an FPGA, and yet use 1/10th of the space. Compared with GPU the ratios are at least ten times better again.
This is all just text, there is no evidence available to suggest anyone ordered this equipment from you.
ROI is the key to investing in something as volatile as bitcoins. If spatial efficiency and power usage is such a huge concern, then anyone would be a fool hosting this at a datacentre considering you keep saying it uses so little space you may aswell host it at a different location that is way more cost beneficial than a datacentre.
As many noted in this thread @ $30k a pop the ROI is terribly low and anyone investing in this would effectively be gambling for the next 24-36months hoping to get to breakeven and then start to profit.
We've had orders for five at a time already.
You won't know for sure until money starts changing hands. Do you think we'll ever see a 42u rack completely filled with c200s?
Im confused why you keep mentioning that this is meant for "Industrial operations", do you honestly think any large scale operation wouldnt raise an eyebrow at the terrible ROI proposed by this solution?
Yes, they are. We've had orders for five at a time already. Everyone knows that power efficiency is important with mining, but there hasn't been much mention of spatial efficiency. With ASICs, we can crank 7x more Bitcoins for the same power investment as an FPGA, and yet use 1/10th of the space. Compared with GPU the ratios are at least ten times better again.
Im confused why you keep mentioning that this is meant for "Industrial operations", do you honestly think any large scale operation wouldnt raise an eyebrow at the terrible ROI proposed by this solution?
15k is much more reasonable; also license file non time liked with out remote drm. I like the escrow in fact it's essential; why not 5k up front and then 1k per month with each payment you send a license file until 15k is paid. You could also come up with a formulae on price by incorporating the difficulty ratio at the time.
If you have good credit, we can (as can any business) arrange an equipment lease. But keep in mind this will bind you to a 12 to 48 month lease contract.
The problem is that once you start doing contracts for leasing, the cost starts to approach the purchase price, and it may no longer makes sense to lease. The only reason to lease then is so that if the equipment breaks after 6 months, you can break the lease or get new equipment. But then if you do month to month leases, it makes less sense for LargeCoin to lease you the equipment when they can make more money just mining themselves with it.
WTF?
None of those are reasons why legit companies lease equipment (do you really think Google signs leases to get out of paying when equipment breaks
). Companies acquire assets by lease because it frees up capital.I am not saying you can or should but hypothetically lets say you had two options:
A) Pay $30K for a single unit.
That gives you (at current difficulty and price) ~$2K revenue.
OR
B) Pay $5K deposit ea on 6 units and lease them 48 months @ $600 per month with $1 buyout.
That gives you (at current difficulty and price) ~$12K gross revenue - $3600 lease payment = $8,400 revnue.
THAT is why companies lease equipment. It provides better utilization of capital. Now you may say I could just buy the 6 for $180K cash and pocket the full $12K. Sure, but with 180K cash you could also lease (hypothetically) 36 units by putting $180K down and making $21K per month lease payment with gross revenue of $72K monthly.
None of this should be viewed as an endorsement it is simply illustrating how/why companies would use a lease for capital deployment.
15k is much more reasonable; also license file non time liked with out remote drm. I like the escrow in fact it's essential; why not 5k up front and then 1k per month with each payment you send a license file until 15k is paid. You could also come up with a formulae on price by incorporating the difficulty ratio at the time.
If you have good credit, we can (as can any business) arrange an equipment lease. But keep in mind this will bind you to a 12 to 48 month lease contract.
How much for a 12 month lease?
This is highly dependent on your credit score. What monthly payment would make sense for 20 GHash/s?
I will make some calculations on what I think a reasonable lease payment would be and get back with you.
The problem is that once you start doing contracts for leasing, the cost starts to approach the purchase price, and it may no longer makes sense to lease. The only reason to lease then is so that if the equipment breaks after 6 months, you can break the lease or get new equipment. But then if you do month to month leases, it makes less sense for LargeCoin to lease you the equipment when they can make more money just mining themselves with it.
You're partly correct - leasing is no free lunch and is quite different from "renting". Leases are mostly used for tax purposes and for cash flow management in a business that can prove to the financer that it has the ability to pay a series of lease payments over time.
$30,000 is a large chunk of money for many folks, but this appliance is not aimed at the hobbyist miner. We're selling to industrial operations who are concerned about rack density and power consumption. For these types of operations, a lease may be preferred because the lease can be written off against income, whereas the equipment must be depreciated over a longer time period (for tax purposes).
If you're a hobby miner, my suggestion - and we don't mind helping with this - is for groups to get together and buy a LargeCoin appliance, and then find a rack to host it in collectively. At the current difficulty rate, these appliances will generate close to $25,000 per year with negligible power consumption. I don't know how many other investments you can make where you get a near 100% ROI within one year. But this is probably less risky and more profitable than angel investing.
15k is much more reasonable; also license file non time liked with out remote drm. I like the escrow in fact it's essential; why not 5k up front and then 1k per month with each payment you send a license file until 15k is paid. You could also come up with a formulae on price by incorporating the difficulty ratio at the time.
If you have good credit, we can (as can any business) arrange an equipment lease. But keep in mind this will bind you to a 12 to 48 month lease contract.
How much for a 12 month lease?
This is highly dependent on your credit score. What monthly payment would make sense for 20 GHash/s?
15k is much more reasonable; also license file non time liked with out remote drm. I like the escrow in fact it's essential; why not 5k up front and then 1k per month with each payment you send a license file until 15k is paid. You could also come up with a formulae on price by incorporating the difficulty ratio at the time.
If you have good credit, we can (as can any business) arrange an equipment lease. But keep in mind this will bind you to a 12 to 48 month lease contract.
The problem is that once you start doing contracts for leasing, the cost starts to approach the purchase price, and it may no longer makes sense to lease. The only reason to lease then is so that if the equipment breaks after 6 months, you can break the lease or get new equipment. But then if you do month to month leases, it makes less sense for LargeCoin to lease you the equipment when they can make more money just mining themselves with it.
Only a 90 day warranty on a $30k piece of equipment? And tied to your host site? Yeesh - you could fake mining at 20 GH/s for 90 days and then cut it off (claiming that the unit must be broken) and still come out way ahead. Too many red flags here..
I agree I was excited until I looked at the numbers and thought about the agreement.
1. $4500 is enough to build a fake and run off with the pre-orders.
2. No one knows for sure you can accomplish this.
3. You have no reputation, or testimonials of your past accomplishments.
4. I want to see your face, and more of web presence with an address and phone number
5. You can't start small by selling low cost systems as part of building your rep between now and July?
Well, I hope you are not a fraud as I would love to buy a system.
15k is much more reasonable; also license file non time liked with out remote drm. I like the escrow in fact it's essential; why not 5k up front and then 1k per month with each payment you send a license file until 15k is paid. You could also come up with a formulae on price by incorporating the difficulty ratio at the time.
If you have good credit, we can (as can any business) arrange an equipment lease. But keep in mind this will bind you to a 12 to 48 month lease contract.
How much for a 12 month lease?
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