I think this product would need to be in the $10,000-$15,000 range to garner any real interest.
Would you buy one if it was $15K?
Topic: LargeCoin Pricing Announced; Taking Pre-Orders - page 12. (Read 30323 times)
I think this product would need to be in the $10,000-$15,000 range to garner any real interest.
Would you buy one if it was $15K?
I am still hung up on the 90 day warranty. How can you drop 30k knowing it may not function in 91 days? Can/will they repair it and at what cost?
+1. Even BFL has stated a 6 month warranty. Most computer manufacturers guarantee their products for at least a year or more.If they sold them in Portugal they would need to give a 24 months warranty, wether they liked it or not.
Also, BFL said something about shipping from Germany, so I have good news. If they do that(and they said they would to avoid customs) they must follow European rules, and guess what: 2 years warranty
Thread about it in a gamers forum:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/xbox-360-hardware/475729-2-year-warranty-standard-eu-law.html
The actual law
http://ec.europa.eu/publications/booklets/move/64/index_en.htm Download the document and it's on page 7(pdf page 9)
More info http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cons_int/safe_shop/guarantees/index_en.htm
Be aware that some countries may not follow the EU directive yet as they have 7(?) years to make it into law, so Germany could have only 1 year mandatory. At least that was the case in The Netherlands not many years ago.
I am still hung up on the 90 day warranty. How can you drop 30k knowing it may not function in 91 days? Can/will they repair it and at what cost?
+1. Even BFL has stated a 6 month warranty. Most computer manufacturers guarantee their products for at least a year or more. 
I am still hung up on the 90 day warranty. How can you drop 30k knowing it may not function in 91 days? Can/will they repair it and at what cost?
I love it when the really important questions are left unanswered...
2nd try:
Leave it unanswered and the scammer accusations will start to flow, and it won't be because of specs!
2nd try:
Million bitcoin question: Who will be the escrow?
Leave it unanswered and the scammer accusations will start to flow, and it won't be because of specs!
Email him and find out then! Jesus christ, any excuse for a whinge.
Any follow up on how it will be pro-rated.
No.FYPFY.
"Pro-rated" without any contract or at least terms of the pro-rate is utterly worthless. Just because you are too stupid to realize that doesn't mean others are.
As an example:
http://www.goodyear.com/en-US/services/tire-warranty
Quote
Replacement price will be calculated by multiplying the tire’s advertised retail selling price at the time of adjustment, by the percentage of usable original tread that has been worn off. You pay for mounting and balancing, and an amount equal to the current Federal Excise Tax (F.E.T. — U.S. only) and any other applicable taxes and government-mandated charges. EXAMPLE: If your disabled tire had an original 8/32" of usable treadwear and is worn to 4/32" usable tread remaining; you have used 50% and therefore must pay 50% of the advertised price of the comparable tire. In addition, you must pay an amount equal to the full current Federal Excise Tax (U.S. only) or any other applicable taxes and government-mandated charges for the comparable new replacement tire at the time of adjustment. If the price of the new comparable tire is $80, the cost to you would be $40, plus F.E.T. (U.S. only), plus any other applicable taxes and government-mandated charges.
Now this is for tires as cheap at $60 for fucks sake. $60 tires have a full paragraph to protect both parties interest in the event the pro-rated refund needs to be used. Yet for a $30K piece of custom hardware something as vague as "will be pro-rated" is sufficient? Really?
Subscribing.
Just for reference, the rig box is guaranteed to be 50.4Gh @ 2.5Kw. This guarantee is in the form of partial refund.
Also BFL last product ended up be 400% of claimed wattage and 66% of claimed hashing power at 20% higher price. If Rig box follows that same trend it is ~30GH/s @ 10 KW and ~$35K. 
Just for reference, the rig box is guaranteed to be 50.4Gh @ 2.5Kw. This guarantee is in the form of partial refund.
Well the single was "guaranteed" to be 1.05 GH @ 20W. Doesn't say much.
"This guarantee is in the form of partial refund."
BFL to me, "The performance specification of 50.4 gh/s @ 2,500w is guaranteed. Should the delivered performance vary from these figures in a negative way, a pro rated refund is the agreed remedy."
Any follow up on how it will be pro-rated. A 1% reduction in price for a 1% miss in performance = solid. A 1% reduction in price for every 20% missed in performance = not so solid.
Since there are two specs how is the pro-rated refund work for a miss on both.
If power is 20% higher and performance is 20% lower is it a 20% refund, 0.8*0.8 = 36% refund, or 0.2 + 0.2 = 40% refund or none of the above?
Without knowing that and spelled on in contract BFL guarantee is no better than Tommy Boy example. They already released one guaranteed product.
Guaranteed 50 MH/W -nope (and laughable they got this one so wrong)
Guaranteed in 4 to 6 weeks - nope (not even close)
Guaranteed 1.05 GH/s - nope.
I think this product would need to be in the $10,000-$15,000 range to garner any real interest.
Subscribing.
Just for reference, the rig box is guaranteed to be 50.4Gh @ 2.5Kw. This guarantee is in the form of partial refund.
Also BFL last product ended up be 400% of claimed wattage and 66% of claimed hashing power at 20% higher price. If Rig box follows that same trend it is ~30GH/s @ 10 KW and ~$35K.
Just for reference, the rig box is guaranteed to be 50.4Gh @ 2.5Kw. This guarantee is in the form of partial refund.
Well the single was "guaranteed" to be 1.05 GH @ 20W. Doesn't say much.
"This guarantee is in the form of partial refund."
BFL to me, "The performance specification of 50.4 gh/s @ 2,500w is guaranteed. Should the delivered performance vary from these figures in a negative way, a pro rated refund is the agreed remedy."
Subscribing.
Just for reference, the rig box is guaranteed to be 50.4Gh @ 2.5Kw. This guarantee is in the form of partial refund.
Also BFL last product ended up be 400% of claimed wattage and 66% of claimed hashing power at 20% higher price. If Rig box follows that same trend it is ~30GH/s @ 10 KW and ~$35K.
Just for reference, the rig box is guaranteed to be 50.4Gh @ 2.5Kw. This guarantee is in the form of partial refund.
Well the single was "guaranteed" to be 1.05 GH @ 20W. Doesn't say much.
"This guarantee is in the form of partial refund."
Subscribing.
Just for reference, the rig box is guaranteed to be 50.4Gh @ 2.5Kw. This guarantee is in the form of partial refund.
Also BFL last product ended up be 400% of claimed wattage and 66% of claimed hashing power at 20% higher price. If Rig box follows that same trend it is ~30GH/s @ 10 KW and ~$35K.
Just for reference, the rig box is guaranteed to be 50.4Gh @ 2.5Kw. This guarantee is in the form of partial refund.
Well the single was "guaranteed" to be 1.05 GH @ 20W. Doesn't say much. Reminds me of the movie Tommy Boy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8jIIPocqUU
Subscribing.
Just for reference, the rig box is guaranteed to be 50.4Gh @ 2.5Kw. This guarantee is in the form of partial refund.
Also BFL last product ended up be 400% of claimed wattage and 66% of claimed hashing power at 20% higher price. If Rig box follows that same trend it is ~30GH/s @ 10 KW and ~$35K.
Just for reference, the rig box is guaranteed to be 50.4Gh @ 2.5Kw. This guarantee is in the form of partial refund.
Million bitcoin question: Who will be the escrow?
....
See the post on this page explaining the DRM thing.
If you are going to assume that price doubles due to reward halving or if your calculations assume that btc price goes up a lot to reduce the break even time, then it makes more sense for you to buy BTC today and wait for the price to go up. You will make more money that way. So as far as I'm concerned, I need to assume btc price stays constant or that it only increases enough to cancel out the increase in difficulty.
I was just adding to your assumptions because it may be relevant for some people. In the bitcoin world, anything measured in years is a gamble...
....
See the post on this page explaining the DRM thing.
Any one want to wager on whether this comes true or not? 
Feel free to open a thread in the off-topic section to discuss and bet on that.
Any one want to wager on whether this comes true or not?
Just my 0.02 bitcents, the keying/licensing requirement is absurd. According to the release announcement, the rig can be controlled via a web interface hosted on their servers, which means that they have complete control over it, just as much as the buyer does.
I certainly see value in the rack formfactor and the low power usage. Apparently up to 40 can be fit in per 42U rack, which means 4KW or a little less than 40 amps at 120VAC - almost all datacenters allow that much power for the basic rack price. For me locally, 42U with 40 amps and 1 mbps of ethernet would be $600/month
I hate to keep pulling out the Rig Box as a comparison, but let's assume for the moment that they are retaining their non-rackmountable design and pulling 2500 watts each - guessing from the picture, you could probably fit 2 side-by-side on a rack shelf, and perhaps within 4U each. So that means 20 Rig Boxes per 42U rack, for a total power usage of 50KW. This is lower power density than a set of blade servers, but far more than many datacenters can handle, so yes you may have issues putting them anywhere for a reasonable price. (400 amps per rack anyone?)
To gain acceptance from the hardcore miners, you must remove the idiotic keying/licensing model, and remove the requirement for the web interface to be hosted by you. The more ideal way to do this is as follows: Since you can apparently fit 40 in a rack, allow customers to also run their own control head server (1 more U) preferably based on an open-source platform. The final U remaining would be used by a network router with 42 ports.
It appears that the keying requirement is only to support the distribution of units without payment in full, but escrow removes this need completely. I echo the question earlier - what if something happens to make it quit working? That means unnecessary mining downtime for a stupid DRM equivalent, and we have seen in the past how DRM can break spectacularly when implemented poorly.
I certainly see value in the rack formfactor and the low power usage. Apparently up to 40 can be fit in per 42U rack, which means 4KW or a little less than 40 amps at 120VAC - almost all datacenters allow that much power for the basic rack price. For me locally, 42U with 40 amps and 1 mbps of ethernet would be $600/month
I hate to keep pulling out the Rig Box as a comparison, but let's assume for the moment that they are retaining their non-rackmountable design and pulling 2500 watts each - guessing from the picture, you could probably fit 2 side-by-side on a rack shelf, and perhaps within 4U each. So that means 20 Rig Boxes per 42U rack, for a total power usage of 50KW. This is lower power density than a set of blade servers, but far more than many datacenters can handle, so yes you may have issues putting them anywhere for a reasonable price. (400 amps per rack anyone?)
To gain acceptance from the hardcore miners, you must remove the idiotic keying/licensing model, and remove the requirement for the web interface to be hosted by you. The more ideal way to do this is as follows: Since you can apparently fit 40 in a rack, allow customers to also run their own control head server (1 more U) preferably based on an open-source platform. The final U remaining would be used by a network router with 42 ports.
It appears that the keying requirement is only to support the distribution of units without payment in full, but escrow removes this need completely. I echo the question earlier - what if something happens to make it quit working? That means unnecessary mining downtime for a stupid DRM equivalent, and we have seen in the past how DRM can break spectacularly when implemented poorly.
Does this clear up everyone's concerns about DRM?
Understood. Thank youOk, let's assume data center costs and power costs are $0. Mining this at 20ghash/s nets you about $2000 a month. Let's assume both bitcoin price and difficulty either don't increase or cancel each other out. So you get 5 months at $2000 a month, and when the mining rewards halves in December of this year, you start making only $1000/month. It will take 25 months to make back your initial investment.
You guys really need to rethink your strategy. Maybe leasing makes sense. But purchasing your device doesn't make any sense if it doesn't break even for 2 years (which doesn't even include the data center and power costs!)
For comparison, The BitForce Single takes 8.8 months to break even and the BitForce Rig takes 6.5 months to break even. And these 2 numbers assumes power costs $0.30 per kwh.
You guys really need to rethink your strategy. Maybe leasing makes sense. But purchasing your device doesn't make any sense if it doesn't break even for 2 years (which doesn't even include the data center and power costs!)
For comparison, The BitForce Single takes 8.8 months to break even and the BitForce Rig takes 6.5 months to break even. And these 2 numbers assumes power costs $0.30 per kwh.
You also assume that the reward halving has no impact in price.
Anyway, this is a choice I don't need to worry about because I don't have the money to buy it.
If you are going to assume that price doubles due to reward halving or if your calculations assume that btc price goes up a lot to reduce the break even time, then it makes more sense for you to buy BTC today and wait for the price to go up. You will make more money that way. So as far as I'm concerned, I need to assume btc price stays constant or that it only increases enough to cancel out the increase in difficulty.
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