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Topic: [LEAKED] Private Bitcoin Foundation Discussions On Blacklisting, more (ZIP dump) - page 14. (Read 61193 times)

full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
So far what I'm reading is a very adult conversation about serious issues Bitcoin faces as it grows up. I'm not seeing the sort of thread that would happen here or Reddit.

It's not decisions being forced by the Foundation and I'm tired of seeing it put across like that. It's a discussion and it's a really important one. Here is why:

Imagine Bin Laden is still around.

...

Bitcoin is not supposed to be a tool that replaces the incompetence of law enforcement.

We need an altcoin that improves the weaknesses bitcoin has, hence allows people to be free once again, and not treated as potential Bin Ladens.

You know this
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1152
I am to the point where I would take a serious look at a codebase released from a group of people I trust to evolve the protocol in a healthy direction which rectifies some of the deficiencies.  gmaxwell, retep, and adam3us come to mind.

Ideally releases from the more desirable codebase would track and inter-operate with releases blessed by the Bitcoin Foundation.  Until they didn't.

You already have a codebase released from that group, the one at http://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin

If it is changed in a way that is seriously objectionable, as opposed to minor disagreements about engineering tradeoffs, believe me, you will see alternative releases from myself and many others pop up.
full member
Activity: 189
Merit: 100
and we thought the foundation had good intentions
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 257
bluemeanie
I cannot formulate the words to adequately express my anger about this. I consider Bitcoin to be revolutionary. It could completely free people from the failing fiat system. It could completely free the people from the restrictions of credit card payments. It combines the best qualities of cash and plastic, AND it's impossible to steal (assuming the proper precautions are taken). And now, as with everything great that's happened since 1920, the US government and some multinational corporations have to find some way to stomp it to the ground for a few kickbacks and maybe a few years in office.

If I could find a person who knowingly allowed this to happen, and I were in the same room as him with a gun in my hand, I would have a very difficult time not pulling the trigger.

Some people might argue that "compromise is the only way to keep Bitcoin legal". If Bitcoin becomes popular enough, this may be true. I say, why gives a fuck? I believe morality overrides legality 100% of the time. I believe that in the modern world, which revolves around the Internet, free software (especially free software infrastructures such as Bitcoin) is the greatest tool we have against authoritarianism. I believe that freedom from governmental and corporate control is a human right. Therefore, I believe that as long as Bitcoin has even a small number of users, it is my moral duty to do my best to keep the Bitcoin ecosystem alive, regardless of the consequences. If everyone shared this same philosophy, Bitcoin would be literally unstoppable.

1. Reject all closed source Bitcoin software, including web wallets, and, God forbid it comes to this, the official client.
2. Reject all Bitcoin software that contradicts Satoshi's paper. This paper is the Constitution of Bitcoin. This includes any software which blacklists addresses, reverses transactions, or has ANY central point of failure, especially a central authority. The difference between Bitcoin and Paypal is that Bitcion is decentralized.
3. Governments exist to catch proverbial murderers. They do not exist to prevent the purchase of proverbial weapons. No matter what governments say, control of currency (Bitcoin or otherwise) does nothing but control innocent people.
4. Corporations exist to serve customers. They do not exist to control customers. Boycott companies that place any restrictions other than the price of their goods or services.

Interesting points but it's not really quite so simple to combat these problems.

Things like web wallets do contributee to the centalization aspect, making it far easier for large banks to come in and start capitalizing- just build a feature that has some price advantage, but uses centralized technologies, and suddenly everyone is back on the old program again.

One problem we face is tolerating technologies that abuse the underlying network.  In my view Color Coins and Mastercoin are an example of this.  The notion of having some kind of for-profit Color Coin system that exploits the assumptions of the network participants is just flat out intolerable if you ask me.

This issue of government charter in the realm of finance has been going on for quite some time.  J. Orlin Grabbe identitied these conflicts some time ago.  http://orlingrabbe.com/money2.htm

Quote
There's a specter haunting the international financial markets: the specter of crime by nomenclature, by theological semantics. To be sure, the faceless piece of transaction information that makes money "money"--a useful medium of exchange, whereby we exchange everything for it, and avoid the direct bartering of wheelbarrows for oranges--has been under attack before. The 60s brought us "euro"-dollars, and the 70s "petro"-dollars. Now we have "narco"-dollars, "terror"-dollars, and (who knows?) maybe "kiddie-porn"-dollars. For some of the data bits stored in banks' computers comprise "clean" money and others "dirty" money, the latter legalistically smitten with original sin.

As Yoga Berra might say, it's digital voodoo, all over again.

As we know in post-Bailout America, there is an 'insider group' and these people are working for money interests while telling us that they want to keep up safe from terror, kiddie porn, and irreversible transactions.  Do we still believe these people?

The solution though is to stay vigilant with our values and continue to forge ahead despite the 'knowns' being now salaried employees of various banking interests.  Have a look at my Confidence Chains project, it came out of some of the conclusions I came to regarding these issues and the drawbacks of other similar platforms.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
Quote from: ffssixtynine
Have you read anything at all that I just posted? And if you didn't believe me, have you read through all the posts in the leak? What you just said is a complete fabrication supported by zero evidence.
Maybe it is a fabrication, maybe not, I don't care much. I don't think blacklists will go anywhere because people are mixing their coins for privacy reasons anyway to avoid data mining by vendors, so coins connected to crime already spread through everyone's hands.

I'm just saying that it's actually a good sign when the community shows clearly what they think about such ideas.
Developers and entrepreneurs should not see this as an attack against themselves, but rather against the idea itself.
After all, if no one plans anything evil it means that this is just a misunderstanding and all attacks are directed against foundation members in a parallel universe.

And if such discussions didn't have to get leaked, people wouldn't immediately jump to the conclusion that something shady is going on.

And if those leaks weren't in .zip format people would be able to check for themselves much easier.
]

yep like the 96% of coke on dollar bills , only bitcoins can not be printed and never leave the blockchain!
so can not be replaced by clean ones , this simply does not make sense!
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 1083
Legendary Escrow Service - Tip Jar in Profile
This idea is already useless from the start. I mean its to fight scams right? But any scammer that isnt fully stupid will collect the coins and change it to good ones instantly. I mean you never know before that its a scam. And then, when its a known scam, the coins are marked. And completely innocent people will lose possibly everything.

This is completely useless for preventing scams.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
Every smart person owning bitcoins will rush into altcoins if those plans become reality, altcoins will rise, bitcoin will fall ... you'll loose nothing, they loose everything. Stay calm. The technology is here to stay.
No need to rush into any altcoins, a simple hard fork is all we need.
hero member
Activity: 803
Merit: 500
If this starts happening I'm selling all my Bitcoin to the first suckers buying.

I'm also never going to work a normal job again. I'll get a brain dead job in government and do as little as possible at all times. I'll completely opt out and exploit this corrupt system some call "society" to the fullest of my ability.

Many others will follow (because what's the point...) and money will in time be replaced by pecking orders that naturally form within government – but as I said I will not participate in that; I will be the lowest, laziest form of scum you can imagine. I.e., I will pretend to be "poor" even though I'm not.

..we will essentially all become higher order beggars and criminals.

Stay calm. Also, there are always Altcoins.

listen to this.

Let' them destroy bitcoin, if they want and can. They act out of greed cause they want bitcoin to be complete legitimate to become mainstream. If they want ... it'll never happen. They sell bitcoins soul for their wannabe-profit and 'll end with nothing. Every smart person owning bitcoins will rush into altcoins if those plans become reality, altcoins will rise, bitcoin will fall ... you'll loose nothing, they loose everything. Stay calm. The technology is here to stay.
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 250
So, Redlists / Blacklists and Cointaining is OUT ! Got it...

So what can we do about stolen coins being used... because lets imagine you have 100 BTC stolen from you.. you can see it in the blockchain and want to catch this guy right ? Thats the idea behind the cointainting.. except, the coin tainting only creates more issues... So whats the solution ?

Blockchain Analysis Police
So, let us propose that a company [from MIT because why not? lol] who have developed some really cool algorithms for analysing the blockchain really fast and finding common connections.

Now, with the new merchant style address, ie: IF you pay for something in BTC you just pay the same BTC address as everyone else only include some meta data like order ref for example.. this company could quite quickly build up a list (from google and more) of commonly known addresses.

When I get my 100 BTC stolen, I go to this company website and plugin the transaction id(s) of the theft, maybe upload some documents (such as previous proof of addresss payment, police report, id..etc?)  and this company then logs this theft and begins watching the coins.

Now imagine is doing it with loads of stolen coin thefts over a long period..  

Eventually, these coins would find there way into a publically known address.. at which point, the question can be asked, 'who did you get the coins off ? ' . .they might tell, you, they might not - this email could be automated to a form on the site ?

Over time this goes on and on and on until eventually a profile is made to a certain degree of certainty as to who the criminal is.

--

Now, I'm not saying this idea is how it would / should / could work, I'm just saying it's an idea of how I could possibly see coin thefts being resolved in the future..  feel free to add / amend / change / improve / bash idea as much as possible.
While the idea is good, wouldn't it harm the anonymity of bitcoin?

Everything could already be done as is... no additional interaction / submitting 'this is my address people' to the state type stuff is required.
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 257
bluemeanie
They are destroying the work of satoshi which aimed decentralized currency. Maybe its time to find a new bitcoin developers.

please have a look at what I'm working on(links below).

it addresses many of these issues as it does away with mining altogether.

thanks and I 100% agree with OP, it's a huge problem.  This isn't really what Bitcoin was meant to be.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
I have just read some of this crap. It is really disgusting.

People like that should not have the power to represent or decide ANYTHING in Bitcoin. Mike should be kicked out of the foundation immediately and the foundation should be moved to Switzerland in order to remove pro-government lobbying & political pressure (if that even helps - but after reading I doubt it).
newbie
Activity: 45
Merit: 0
I cannot formulate the words to adequately express my anger about this. I consider Bitcoin to be revolutionary. It could completely free people from the failing fiat system. It could completely free the people from the restrictions of credit card payments. It combines the best qualities of cash and plastic, AND it's impossible to steal (assuming the proper precautions are taken). And now, as with everything great that's happened since 1920, the US government and some multinational corporations have to find some way to stomp it to the ground for a few kickbacks and maybe a few years in office.

If I could find a person who knowingly allowed this to happen, and I were in the same room as him with a gun in my hand, I would have a very difficult time not pulling the trigger.

Some people might argue that "compromise is the only way to keep Bitcoin legal". If Bitcoin becomes popular enough, this may be true. I say, why gives a fuck? I believe morality overrides legality 100% of the time. I believe that in the modern world, which revolves around the Internet, free software (especially free software infrastructures such as Bitcoin) is the greatest tool we have against authoritarianism. I believe that freedom from governmental and corporate control is a human right. Therefore, I believe that as long as Bitcoin has even a small number of users, it is my moral duty to do my best to keep the Bitcoin ecosystem alive, regardless of the consequences. If everyone shared this same philosophy, Bitcoin would be literally unstoppable.

1. Reject all closed source Bitcoin software, including web wallets, and, God forbid it comes to this, the official client.
2. Reject all Bitcoin software that contradicts Satoshi's paper. This paper is the Constitution of Bitcoin. This includes any software which blacklists addresses, reverses transactions, or has ANY central point of failure, especially a central authority. The difference between Bitcoin and Paypal is that Bitcion is decentralized.
3. Governments exist to catch proverbial murderers. They do not exist to prevent the purchase of proverbial weapons. No matter what governments say, control of currency (Bitcoin or otherwise) does nothing but control innocent people.
4. Corporations exist to serve customers. They do not exist to control customers. Boycott companies that place any restrictions other than the price of their goods or services.

Free as in Freedom!
legendary
Activity: 1145
Merit: 1001
If this starts happening I'm selling all my Bitcoin to the first suckers buying.

I'm also never going to work a normal job again. I'll get a brain dead job in government and do as little as possible at all times. I'll completely opt out and exploit this corrupt system some call "society" to the fullest of my ability.

Many others will follow (because what's the point...) and money will in time be replaced by pecking orders that naturally form within government – but as I said I will not participate in that; I will be the lowest, laziest form of scum you can imagine. I.e., I will pretend to be "poor" even though I'm not.

..we will essentially all become higher order beggars and criminals.

Stay calm. Also, there are always Altcoins.
Rez
full member
Activity: 132
Merit: 100
I will be the lowest, laziest form of scum you can imagine. I.e., I will pretend to be "poor" even though I'm not.


So you will become everything you claim you despise. If you can find it in you to live a life like this, you should perhaps pursue what may be your calling.

Quote

..we will essentially all become higher order beggars and criminals.

Please don't speak for me.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
I cannot formulate the words to adequately express my anger about this. I consider Bitcoin to be revolutionary. It could completely free people from the failing fiat system. It could completely free the people from the restrictions of credit card payments. It combines the best qualities of cash and plastic, AND it's impossible to steal (assuming the proper precautions are taken). And now, as with everything great that's happened since 1920, the US government and some multinational corporations have to find some way to stomp it to the ground for a few kickbacks and maybe a few years in office.

If I could find a person who knowingly allowed this to happen, and I were in the same room as him with a gun in my hand, I would have a very difficult time not pulling the trigger.

Some people might argue that "compromise is the only way to keep Bitcoin legal". If Bitcoin becomes popular enough, this may be true. I say, why gives a fuck? I believe morality overrides legality 100% of the time. I believe that in the modern world, which revolves around the Internet, free software (especially free software infrastructures such as Bitcoin) is the greatest tool we have against authoritarianism. I believe that freedom from governmental and corporate control is a human right. Therefore, I believe that as long as Bitcoin has even a small number of users, it is my moral duty to do my best to keep the Bitcoin ecosystem alive, regardless of the consequences. If everyone shared this same philosophy, Bitcoin would be literally unstoppable.

1. Reject all closed source Bitcoin software, including web wallets, and, God forbid it comes to this, the official client.
2. Reject all Bitcoin software that contradicts Satoshi's paper. This paper is the Constitution of Bitcoin. This includes any software which blacklists addresses, reverses transactions, or has ANY central point of failure, especially a central authority. The difference between Bitcoin and Paypal is that Bitcion is decentralized.
3. Governments exist to catch proverbial murderers. They do not exist to prevent the purchase of proverbial weapons. No matter what governments say, control of currency (Bitcoin or otherwise) does nothing but control innocent people.
4. Corporations exist to serve customers. They do not exist to control customers. Boycott companies that place any restrictions other than the price of their goods or services.

Quoted For Awesomness.

Well said, sir.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
I believe morality overrides legality 100% of the time.
I agree with this.

On a related note, there's nothing wrong with feeling and expressing anger but escalating it to hypothetical acts of violence isn't cool.
legendary
Activity: 4690
Merit: 1276

You can do an awful lot on top of the protocol I'm afraid.
...

Ya, that kind of sucks.

I am to the point where I would take a serious look at a codebase released from a group of people I trust to evolve the protocol in a healthy direction which rectifies some of the deficiencies.  gmaxwell, retep, and adam3us come to mind.

Ideally releases from the more desirable codebase would track and inter-operate with releases blessed by the Bitcoin Foundation.  Until they didn't.

sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 251
I cannot formulate the words to adequately express my anger about this. I consider Bitcoin to be revolutionary. It could completely free people from the failing fiat system. It could completely free the people from the restrictions of credit card payments. It combines the best qualities of cash and plastic, AND it's impossible to steal (assuming the proper precautions are taken). And now, as with everything great that's happened since 1920, the US government and some multinational corporations have to find some way to stomp it to the ground for a few kickbacks and maybe a few years in office.

If I could find a person who knowingly allowed this to happen, and I were in the same room as him with a gun in my hand, I would have a very difficult time not pulling the trigger.

Some people might argue that "compromise is the only way to keep Bitcoin legal". If Bitcoin becomes popular enough, this may be true. I say, why gives a fuck? I believe morality overrides legality 100% of the time. I believe that in the modern world, which revolves around the Internet, free software (especially free software infrastructures such as Bitcoin) is the greatest tool we have against authoritarianism. I believe that freedom from governmental and corporate control is a human right. Therefore, I believe that as long as Bitcoin has even a small number of users, it is my moral duty to do my best to keep the Bitcoin ecosystem alive, regardless of the consequences. If everyone shared this same philosophy, Bitcoin would be literally unstoppable.

1. Reject all closed source Bitcoin software, including web wallets, and, God forbid it comes to this, the official client.
2. Reject all Bitcoin software that contradicts Satoshi's paper. This paper is the Constitution of Bitcoin. This includes any software which blacklists addresses, reverses transactions, or has ANY central point of failure, especially a central authority. The difference between Bitcoin and Paypal is that Bitcion is decentralized.
3. Governments exist to catch proverbial murderers. They do not exist to prevent the purchase of proverbial weapons. No matter what governments say, control of currency (Bitcoin or otherwise) does nothing but control innocent people.
4. Corporations exist to serve customers. They do not exist to control customers. Boycott companies that place any restrictions other than the price of their goods or services.
legendary
Activity: 1064
Merit: 1000
I don't want anything that's been proposed but I can see the need for a good digital identity system.
Here I must give you right. But Namecoin ID is exactly the proper solution for it.
A pseudonymous identity with trust rating is what we need.

Cryptography gives us is the ability to have identity without the need to reveal who we are. The tech started in the 1970s but the missing link was decentralization.
legendary
Activity: 1064
Merit: 1000
If you think we dont need to meet the regulators half way you a fool.
Google met You are a fool if you believe that meeting terrorist and gangsters halfway will ever result in a good outcome for anyone except them and their cronies.

Rubbish: The United Kingdom had a real problem with terrorism back in the 1980 and 90's, called the IRA. Google it. Domestic terrorism, bombs going of every week.
Meeting them and resolving their issues solved it, not guns, not bombs, not wars waged in other countries that just incite more hatred. They brought them to the table and worked to resolve the conflict. Result, people, kids not getting blown up (weekly for years).
Nepal too, how did they resolve the civil war of 10 years? Oh my, not with guns... by negotiation. History proves you wrong.

So don't say talking cant end in positive results.

You are just looking for a fight. Be civil. Work with the situation - we all know that bitcoin, like bittorrent is unstoppable, short of turning of the internet. Aint gonna happen... and even if they do, peer to peer meshnets using mobile devices is the next step. Now you have networks that function so long as there are people, and electricity (which you can get free from the sun).

Maybe you don't really trust the technology. If you did, you wouldn't be so worried.
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