[LEAKED] Private Bitcoin Foundation Discussions On Blacklisting, more (ZIP dump) - page 12.

ffssixtynine

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: AlexNeto on November 15, 2013, 07:13:50 AM

This is why we need alternative blockchains. Bitcoin is going mainstream.

Yup this is why Litecoion, in case bitcoin ever gets fucked up.

Whatever they do there will be black market cryptos, but there will never be legal cryptos that don't follow the same rules that Bitcoin is made to follow.

So Litecoin has the same issue, hence if Litecoin stays 'legal' (in the US let's say) then something else with be created.

In a sense, that's why the whole discussion is rather moot, but that never stopped the drug war and it won't stop this. It's not about being logical. The wonderfully free US seems to be anything but. (Not saying the UK is much better either - oh look, CCTV)

ffssixtynine

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Quote from: ?? on ??

None of the discussion I read seemed geared towards how we could prevent such financial censorship (and yes I read all of the threads). It was all about how it could be implemented "safely".

And then countered by how it wouldn't work. Anyone looking at implementing it has to do the same thing.

Moreover, the bitcoin devs know that it may come down to them doing something less evil vs an external doing something very evil. Even to do that would be hugely difficult for them because miners will simply say no unless there is a very compelling case.

Voodah

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Quote from: ffssixtynine on November 15, 2013, 06:48:14 PM

Quote from: tinus42 on November 15, 2013, 06:31:14 PM

Quote from: CanaryInTheMine on November 15, 2013, 09:57:36 AM

Quote from: AlexNeto on November 15, 2013, 07:13:50 AM

This is why we need alternative blockchains. Bitcoin is going mainstream.

Or an alternative, true, foundation?

No, no centralization please. Existing members of the BF should consider withdrawing their membership.

To you as well, go and read properly and think for yourself rather than just replying to a topic title. The foundation have not asked for this.

Please stop giving the same "go read" to everyone and treating anyone but yourself as an ignorant.

The fact is, the foundation HAS asked for this. It did so by disastrously handling this whole situation.

I agree 100% with you on the need for open healthy discussion to be had, specially regarding sensitive issues like these. Knowing how sensitive they are though, obvious care should be taken as to how it is proposed, discussed and assesed. It seems to me AFTER READING the htmls they did exactly the opposite of that.

Idk why you have such a clear agenda of blindly defending what is clearly a mistake ( not even in what's being discussed but in HOW ).

Lauda

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Terminated.

We need CoinJoin or something similar asap.

safeminer

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Activity: 110

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This should be stopped at all costs !!!!

ffssixtynine

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

Quote from: Boussac on November 15, 2013, 06:32:27 PM

Imagine Bin Laden is still around.

We find out his bank account. It contains 5 MUSD and we can see transactions entering it.

We then see outgoings, some of which are traced to weapons used to kill 1000s of Americans, think a major bomb or subway incident.

What do you think is going to happen? Media outrage and congressional outrage. "We must ban this worldwide!". It's exactly what will happen. The US Dollar being so public is a double-edged sword.

The bank account would be/have been confiscated. That's the entire point I was making. The media, the people, the gov will want to know why it wasn't.

In the case of bitcoin, they simply can't do it. In regular banks they can.

End result, massive backlash against bitcoin. Totally inevitable. I remember people not eating french fries because the French dared to make their own decision about the war! Comical. And you couldn't criticise the war because it was anti American and not supporting the soldiers.

So you'll get the same thing, but about bitcoin. And people will stop accepting it or using it on principle. And draconian laws will come in.

That is the real world and it sucks, but people like to run with the pack rather than engage their brain. You can see that all over this thread and reddit, it's not actually any different.

ffssixtynine

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Quote from: tinus42 on November 15, 2013, 06:31:14 PM

Quote from: CanaryInTheMine on November 15, 2013, 09:57:36 AM

Quote from: AlexNeto on November 15, 2013, 07:13:50 AM

This is why we need alternative blockchains. Bitcoin is going mainstream.

Or an alternative, true, foundation?

No, no centralization please. Existing members of the BF should consider withdrawing their membership.

To you as well, go and read properly and think for yourself rather than just replying to a topic title. The foundation have not asked for this.

leopard2

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Quote from: bluemeanie1 on November 15, 2013, 06:41:08 PM

Quote from: leopard2 on November 15, 2013, 06:36:34 PM

In contrast to paper bills, btc can be converted to any altcoin at exchanges anywhere on the planet, so how could a tainted version of btc survive? Fiat exchange can be regulated because there are bank accounts involved but btc-altcoin conversion are nearly impossible to regulate.

the other alt-coins dont significantly differ from Bitcoin thus they can easily and cheaply repeat the process with them.

Who is "they"? Is there a central organization that controls the code behind all existing and future altcoins? You are funny. Cheesy

ffssixtynine

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Activity: 364

Merit: 250

Quote from: ?? on ??

Isn't the obvious response to the bolded portion, especially from the foundation and core devs, to implement technical solutions that make it harder/impossible to redlist/blacklist/whitelist?

Aye, so how do you do that? You have a discussion on how it would be achieved technically so you can then know how to design systems to protect. You can also have a legit discussion about if there is a way to deal with clear criminality within the protocol (I don't think you can because it's all in the eye of the beholder).

However, apparently they aren't allowed to discuss it... Sarcasm!

corebob

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Quote from: leopard2 on November 15, 2013, 06:36:34 PM

Bitcoin is like cash, and who would use a dollar bill that could be remotely seized or invalidated by someone? just because bin laden is using dollar bills?

In contrast to paper bills, btc can be converted to any altcoin at exchanges anywhere on the planet, so how could a tainted version of btc survive? Fiat exchange can be regulated because there are bank accounts involved but btc-altcoin conversion are nearly impossible to regulate.

Each of the various altcoins could replace btc instantly, only problem being that many BTC owners would lose money. Maybe it is time to get a bunch of the most common altcoins just in case? Grin

An altcoin could be bought with bitcoins. It doesn't need to be a problem

bluemeanie1

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Activity: 280

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bluemeanie

Quote from: leopard2 on November 15, 2013, 06:36:34 PM

In contrast to paper bills, btc can be converted to any altcoin at exchanges anywhere on the planet, so how could a tainted version of btc survive? Fiat exchange can be regulated because there are bank accounts involved but btc-altcoin conversion are nearly impossible to regulate.

the other alt-coins dont significantly differ from Bitcoin thus they can easily and cheaply repeat the process with them.

ffssixtynine

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Activity: 364

Merit: 250

Quote from: corebob on November 15, 2013, 05:58:27 PM

I was thinking that if this rubbish is implemented, the network will become a battlegound for hacking and attacks. And with the crap that gov is likely to contribute, those attacks will likely succeed.

The foundation needs to improve the strength of the protocol and its resilience, not bend it to anyone's will

Yes it will and that's why it would be terrible to leave it to crazy money hungry coin verification companies to have discussions with those in power as that's exactly what would happen.

The foundation are not the bitcoin developers though. The protocol and resilience is down to them.

The foundation aren't there to bend to anyone's will, they are there to inform and protect. If they go to the gov and say we need to implement green addresses etc then I'd be all over it. I have seen no sign of that, only of recognition and discussion of the legal issues at hand.

btcdrak

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: ffssixtynine on November 15, 2013, 10:48:17 AM

Quote from: Gavin (foundation forum post)

In my head, I picture people sticking their fingers in their ears and going "LALALALALAL DON'T TALK ABOUT COINTAINT LALALALAL"

Or maybe somebody in a funny hat pointing their finger at Mike and shouting "BLASPHEMY!"

It is fine if y'all want to pretend that coin-tracking won't happen if the Foundation ignores it, and maybe it is such a hot-button issue that the Foundation should ignore it right now.

But it will happen anyway, because the technology to make it happen is pretty straightforward, and any victim of CryptoLocker will be VERY sympathetic to law enforcement tracking "dirty" coins. More than sympathetic, I think we should expect a lot of pressure on law enforcement to DO SOMETHING.

The above was posted by Gavin.

I have emphasised the point I was also making. This doesn't mean do something, it means absolute and complete preparation for how to deal with it. In order to do that, you have to be able to discuss it without being burned at the stake. That's just to shoot oneself in the head.

Isn't the obvious response to the bolded portion, especially from the foundation and core devs, to implement technical solutions that make harder/impossible to redlist/blacklist/whitelist?

That is exactly what the core devs are looking at already. CoinJoin, BIP32 and Luke-Jr's test to incentivize unique address use (which comes for free with BIP32 - just need to get more wallets to implement it!!).

corebob

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Quote from: ffssixtynine on November 15, 2013, 06:35:08 PM

Quote from: corebob on November 15, 2013, 05:34:28 PM

Bitcoin is not supposed to be a tool that replaces the incompetence of law enforcement.

We need an altcoin that improves the weaknesses bitcoin has, hence allows people to be free once again, and not treated as potential Bin Ladens.

You know this

Yes, where have I said any different? My point wasn't that it's wrong about bin laden's account in my example, my point was about how it would play out. I thought that was obvious but sorry if it wasn't.

If you read the foundation threads, someone made exactly the same point as your first line. Banks have had all this too - they don't want all this KYC but they were forced to give in. Hopefully bitcoin won't.

I guess you didn't, I just needed an entry point Grin

leopard2

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Bitcoin is like cash, and who would use a dollar bill that could be remotely seized or invalidated by someone? just because bin laden is using dollar bills?

In contrast to paper bills, btc can be converted to any altcoin at exchanges anywhere on the planet, so how could a tainted version of btc survive? Fiat exchange can be regulated because there are bank accounts involved but btc-altcoin conversion are nearly impossible to regulate.

Each of the various altcoins could replace btc instantly, only problem being that many BTC owners would lose money. Maybe it is time to get a bunch of the most common altcoins just in case? Grin

ffssixtynine

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

Quote from: bluemeanie1 on November 15, 2013, 06:33:35 PM

Quote from: ffssixtynine on November 15, 2013, 06:30:57 PM

Quote from: bluemeanie1 on November 15, 2013, 06:29:37 PM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/libor-scandal/10394831/City-workers-face-investigation-over-Libor-fixing.html

who do you think is culpable?

I don't understand that this has to do with anything?

don't want to answer my question huh?

I just don't understand what on earth it has to do with anything? Corrupt bankers? Inept regulators? Gov letting this go on under their noses?

What does that have to do with anything we're talking about? Seriously, I don't understand your point.

ffssixtynine

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

Quote from: corebob on November 15, 2013, 05:34:28 PM

Bitcoin is not supposed to be a tool that replaces the incompetence of law enforcement.

We need an altcoin that improves the weaknesses bitcoin has, hence allows people to be free once again, and not treated as potential Bin Ladens.

You know this

Yes, where have I said any different? My point wasn't that it's wrong about bin laden's account in my example, my point was about how it would play out. I thought that was obvious but sorry if it wasn't.

If you read the foundation threads, someone made exactly the same point as your first line. Banks have had all this too - they don't want all this KYC but they were forced to give in. Hopefully bitcoin won't.

bluemeanie1

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Activity: 280

Merit: 257

bluemeanie

Quote from: ffssixtynine on November 15, 2013, 06:30:57 PM

Quote from: bluemeanie1 on November 15, 2013, 06:29:37 PM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/libor-scandal/10394831/City-workers-face-investigation-over-Libor-fixing.html

who do you think is culpable?

I don't understand that this has to do with anything?

don't want to answer my question huh?

bluemeanie1

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Activity: 280

Merit: 257

bluemeanie

Quote from: tinus42 on November 15, 2013, 06:31:14 PM

Quote from: CanaryInTheMine on November 15, 2013, 09:57:36 AM

Quote from: AlexNeto on November 15, 2013, 07:13:50 AM

This is why we need alternative blockchains. Bitcoin is going mainstream.

Or an alternative, true, foundation?

No, no centralization please. Existing members of the BF should consider withdrawing their membership.

BF + ECB/FR = BFF

Boussac

legendary

Activity: 1221

Merit: 1025

e-ducat.fr

Quote from: ffssixtynine on November 15, 2013, 09:46:38 AM

Imagine Bin Laden is still around.

We find out his Bitcoin address. It contains 10,000 Bitcoins and we can see transactions entering it.

We then see outgoings, some of which are traced to weapons used to kill 1000s of Americans, think a major bomb or subway incident.

What do you think is going to happen? Media outrage and congressional outrage. "We must ban this worldwide!". It's exactly what will happen. Bitcoin being so public is a double-edged sword.

Imagine Bin Laden is still around.

We find out his bank account. It contains 5 MUSD and we can see transactions entering it.

We then see outgoings, some of which are traced to weapons used to kill 1000s of Americans, think a major bomb or subway incident.

What do you think is going to happen? Media outrage and congressional outrage. "We must ban this worldwide!". It's exactly what will happen. The US Dollar being so public is a double-edged sword.

Topic: [LEAKED] Private Bitcoin Foundation Discussions On Blacklisting, more (ZIP dump) - page 12. (Read 61193 times)