Topic: Liquid Synergy Designs Inc. -ASIC mining hardware - page 27. (Read 423279 times)

When I bought assembly, testing and hosting, it was very clear that I was paying an amount in US dollars in the form of BTC. Why are we even bothering to discuss this? I would still like a refund, no matter what form it takes.

I thought about selling my chips to someone else, but since SB didn't support direct transfers, I didn't do it. Then I reluctantly had to go for the whole assembly etc. since I didn't want a bunch of chips sent to me.

That pricing chart has nothing to do with calculation on how much BTC we are to have returned once trading to him the definite amount of BTC;
it is a calculation guide only in which WE do the math for convenience:
A chart never listed this way, and instead in prices that continuously change in price of BTC for all of those services as its value goes up or down is exactly what his USD-BTC chart substitutes---a built-in calculator of which, this forum does not have such a web-based feature listing ever-changing prices for services by having them all listed in BTC.
The only other way without a built-in calculator would be to sit there himself, every minute of the day changing all the prices for these $services every time BTC went up or down, which he clearly would rather not do and therefore, for convenience sake he made us the position of calculator for how much BTC to trade him by looking at his chart; which professionally we were never even supposed to look at.
After that, the amount of BTC we have returned is the same amount that we traded to him.

EXAMPLE:
After looking at a calculation chart,
Lets call "10,000 BTC" an object/commodity that you trade;
We trade this object for a service that is done right in front of us within a couple of seconds.
Within these few seconds the service experiences a failure and consequently BTC market-value increases in those seconds,
Upon return, your object is now "3.05 BTC".
This is THEFT, regardless of time---whether it is seconds such as in this example, or hours, days, weeks, or even months such as in our case example with Steamboat; it is theft.
The amount of BTC we are to be returned is the amount that we traded; 10,000 BTC traded for service = 10,000 BTC returned for failure.



There is a 10euro service.
You pay thru paypal with 13.51usd.
Paypal experiences an error. Returns your payment.
During this error, euro plummets.
Your return thru paypal is 3.72usd.

Proof of the instant invoice that Paypal provides in the beginning, they will be sued for neglecting return.



This is absurd, and unlawful because BTC must and can only be legally returned in the amount that you traded.

Read:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3609546


You still are to be returned exactly what you traded. It does not matter When, or Whether it was even converted thru bitpay, because:
Post #3 - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3609546

I dont understand how you can defend Steamboat so much and then call for blood against BFL here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3640455

When this all started Steamboat had promised a 72 hour delivery from when he received the chips to when he shipped out assembled miners. I asked for a refund when it was clear that he was not able to achieve that promise. I understand that there were circumstances out of his control. All that I expect is a USD refund and at least weekly updates until that happens. Steamboat has certainly handled this situation better than BFL, but amongst all of the whining there are several valid complaints. To me one of the most valid is the lack of communication.

Good point, I did not realize this.  I stand corrected

Why do you people requesting refunds consider to do so while losing money?  You could have all had your products shipped the beginning of this month and made back approximately $1000 with 8 miners  then you can turn around and sell them each on ebay to recover losses, now due to waiting for a refund you have incurred yourself even more losses and chance for making more reselling your device at a premium price.  Get the bitcoin value out of your head, Steamboat did us all a great service and he had friends who worked for free to help build your miners in good faith.  Honestly whatever funds he did make out of this he deserves fully because he kept his promises and the delays are the fault of Avalon's.  If you were smart you would defend Steamboat and file civil complaints to Avalon for damages incurred.  This is getting quite ridiculous, give him a break.

Bitpay does this by default (converting BTC to USD) and I'm fairly certain they don't do both (%BTC and %USD) as that would be a nightmare to facilitate. SB expressed that he needed the USD to pay for multiple parts of the process, so unless he fronted tens of thousands of $USD for the purpose of holding on to BTC, our BTC was converted to $USD at the time of checkout on the assembly site.

I realize you have a lot on your plate at the moment. If you are not terribly busy and can find some time briefly to address the hosting set-up refunds, assembly refunds, and shipping refunds, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank-you for your time.

I am getting it, i'm simply presented a what-if case scenario.   I'm hard pressed to believe that steamboat priced supplies/hosting in $ but demanded payment in BTC, only to convert it back to $.  That would be the most inefficient way to run a business and given Steamboat's reputation I would be shocked if that's how he carried it out.

if you can't see that he's not only making margin on a product he did not deliver AND had this margin appreciate well over 600% in 5 months as highly unethical, you got something special in store for you at some point in your future.

You're still not getting it. All orders for assembly, regardless of "type" were processed in USD. All of the BTC was converted to USD at the time of purchase. He had costs associated with hosting, shipping, etc. that were in USD so all assembly orders, invoices, etc. processed through the site are denominated in USD.

That being said, I think those who paid for hosting should be compensated for the past two+ weeks of lost mining revenue... that is squarely on SB. He knew that chaining would not be feasible/possible over a month ago and orders were executed out of order because hosting was not yet ready. Honestly, the units could have been mining in "makeshift" conditions quickly/easily while the "world-class facilities" were being constructed. Perhaps this is the case and he has your BTC? idk.

Those who are waiting for refunds probably should expect a bit more back than 25% since it's taken months to process your refunds, but expecting BTC back in the amount you sent is a pipe dream.

Here's an interesting thought though, we gave steamboat $15 for hosting per K16.  That was .15BTC, paid as BTC and likely is still being held as BTC.  This .15BTC is now worth $90, does steamboat still return $15 and keep $65 in profit just from holding the coins for 5 months?  That's the issue I have and I expect steamboat will share in the compensation for this type of "loss" as he's stated that we won't be punished for the delays.

Sad but true! Same thing actually happends between RMB, USD, EURO on import and exports DAILY.. You dont ask your supplier to cover your currrency exchange loss?

Very first post of this thread- Notice how the pricing for everything except chips is listed as USD?  That means you paid USD, and your return will be USD.  Case fucking closed.  If you cannot wrap you mind around this, you shouldn't have had any business in this group buy in the first place.

You will not be receiving the same amount of BTC sent to him.  It's that plain and simple.  Constantly bitching about it isnt going to change anything.  If you paid $133.5 in BTC, you will be refunded no more than $133.5 in BTC.

Haha all this talk about refunds in USD or BTC - seriously guys we need to be more concerned about any refund at all - its coming up to a month without an update we need to be pursuing avenues to put pressure on SB to at least DISCUSS refunds

With SB either hiding like a coward, or simply too busy to pay any mind to all of the people that financed his venture, the following equation is more accurate:

10 BTC traded for assembly = abso-fucking-lutely-nothing

The only time for him to convert, and most especially demand our payment of bitcoin for shipment or assembly is when the fully assembled items are actually being shipped or are readily capable of being shipped; and for assembly, only for when the products are exactly ready to be put together, or are in the current process of being assembled.

The bitcoin rising or dropping in $USD value is irrelevant:

We trade him bitcoins to build machines; as long as we get those machines as intended, even if those bitcoins went up to $1million ea. or down to ¢5cents ea., we received exactly what we traded for them, and what happens to those bitcoins after that is absolutely trivial--both parties received what they traded for.
 
The bitcoins going up or down in price is absolutely impertinent, we have nothing to do with fulfilling what Steamboat is to do for us once trading him our bitcoins. If they go down to ¢5cents ea., then that is money out of his pocket (that he must dreadfully spend to complete the trade, or possibly simply not spend, and quietly, though embarrasingly give up his trade proposal by confronting and telling his associates, and honestly returning their bitcoins) as he completes (or gives up) whatever it is that he must do for us in return for what we traded to him; If they go up to $1million ea., then that is money into his pocket (of which he doesn't have to return a single fraction of a penny, enjoying his risky success of becoming a millionaire before the very likely-to-be jealous eyes of those who traded with him) as he completes whatever it is that he must do for us in return for what we traded to him.

Otherwise, he is not to even touch or look at that which he needed for us to trade to him in advance; just as someone shouldn't lay a finger on an orange traded in advance for a couple of bananas still yet to be found, if ever to be found. The orange sitting on his table is only a figment of his imagination until the task is completed; only then, has he the right to take the orange as possession of his own to liquidate, manipulate, and/or exploit.

The bitcoins are to be returned in the exact condition/amount upon the event of a party's failure to do what the bitcoins were traded/intended for.

An unsuccessful trade is not rightfully justified without pristine, untouched, exact return of the object(s), item(s), or commodities.

10 BTC traded for assembly = 10 BTC returned for failed assembly

I'm sure he converted it all to USD at the beginning even though he didn't need to pay for shipping right away.  If he didn't and the BTC price dropped then he wouldn't have enough to pay for shipping when time came.

It's not that clear since we actually paid in BTC.  The argument can be made both ways but I think it's fair for Steamboat to pay us back in BTC, but not at current market value and not at fullly converted price.  He's made a killing holding a portion bitcoins for almost 6-months (remembering hosting and shipping fees have no initial "cash" outlay and he HAS MADE MARGIN ON THE ASSEMBLY THAT WE HAVE NOT RECEIVED)

If anyone does some quick math on how much money steamboat has made since April, you will not feel bad for how hard he's worked (rightfully earned his "keep").

I'm not nervous or worried that steamboat will come to the table will an attractive resolution.  Nothing he's done to date indicates he is willing to ruin his rep by ripping off the majority of this group

SB made it VERY clear that everything was paid for in $USD, BTC was simply the transfer medium. It's on your invoice, it's on your LiquidSynergy account, it's in the opening post, it's everywhere. Refunds will be in $USD for the same amount and will be transferred back via. BTC. The BTC price spike is making people illogically hopeful. Is it true that SB's delay in refunds has "cost you money"? Maybe, if anything you can be upset about the delay, (or his non-communication, or his poor choices), but you're disillusioned if you think you're getting back the amount of BTC you paid.

Also, I'm looking to buy a few extra boards. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/wtb-2x-klondike-k16s-from-liquidsynergy-336754

Yes of course, this is why I'm into bitcoin, to pay off the debt I incurred when I tried starting a company back in the dot-com bubble disaster.
And nothing around my house has a value denominated in $$$ because that is not legal tender in my country, so that would be just as fucked up as russian roubles vs btc to me

Don't need to check Terrahash, it's the worst.

But, those who are the luckiest in this thread got their chips refunded and didn't have any other orders. (they received back over 90%)
After that the least unlucky are those who got their chips refunded but paid for assembly. (they received back over 50%, with another few % to follow when SB gets it done)
Most out of luck are those who didn't get chip refund, had paid for assembly and had to pay import tax, and take delivery. They will see almost no return on their investment (less than 20% total)

The interesting thing is, it seems it's the second group who whines the most, maybe they were the majority of the orders..

Did you build the laptop yourself  Did you get screwed by a supplier & firmware designer before you could finish  Did you invest in the parts & assembly house to make 3000 laptops

Didn't think so.............................

I think everything had $$$ value,so you get back the same $$$ value.............................

He'll give an update when he's got one ready,I'm sure of it  

He's been busy as hell shipping,getting the hosting going & organizing the bootloader dev & many,many other things to salvage this GB.

As I said before go & check Terrahash's GB to see how bad things are