Topic: Mixers to be banned - page 38. (Read 23912 times)

I think banning mi*ers is a very good move. Why? Because now, if it will be forbidden, then people will double or triple their efforts, to mi* their coins properly. If it would be allowed, then nobody would care, and centralized mi*ers would raise and fall again, and again.

But now, the situation is different: if people will be punished for advertizing mi*ers, then they will post some pictures of kitchen robots, they will use Lightning Network, they will use Silent Payments, maybe cut-through or Full-RBF, and the whole situation will improve after all.

For that reason, I think even the word "mi*er" should be censored, that would drive more people mad, and maybe accelerate some ideas even further. Also, censoring that letter in the middle, makes it similar to the word "miner", so it will give an excuse, that "we are only talking about miners, not mi*ers".

And also, I need more kitchen robots, so keep posting them, maybe with some recipes for Christmas dishes.

People change in your country, but the fact is that politics remains the same - so I don't see anything changing when it comes to Bitcoin and mixers. Right now you have a president who invites dead people to join him on stage and shakes hands with the air, and you can choose between him or the one who attempted a coup in his term. I don't see an opportunity for any changes, only for more new chaos, whichever of the two becomes president again.

No because Silent Payments are not seized by the Feds. Mixers are centralized websites which do get seized. Theymos is banning mixers because they keep getting targeted by law enforcement, not because they are used for criminal activity (otherwise all scammers and Ponzi schemes would've been banned from here a long time ago).

same with full-rbf.

Another example: is advertizing Full-RBF allowed or not? Because guess what: you can have a service, that will allow batching mempool transactions, just by using Full-RBF and nothing else. What then? If you have a lot of on-chain transactions, paying below one satoshi per virtual byte, and you will have a full node, that will batch all of that, and broadcast a single batched transaction with the minimal fee (because it will take less on-chain space, so feerate will pass the minimal allowed value), is it considered "mixing" or not?

I would say no for these reasons,
1. LN usually mentioned as solution towards scaling or microtransaction.
2. LN is non-custodial, unless you use custodial service.
3. LN doesn't offer that much privacy unless you believe other party doesn't keep log and LN software you use have additional privacy feature (e.g. use Tor by default).
3. IIRC by default some statistic of LN channel shown on website such as https://1ml.com/.

Also, there are more things that can be related to "mixing". One of them is called "Silent Payments". Another thing is called cut-through. Because it is possible to send Alice->Bob->Charlie as two on-chain transactions, and have a service, that will batch it, and put Alice->Charlie into the final block. Is it called mixing or not?

It meets the definition, because:

1a. It is advertized as something that can improve your privacy.

1b. It has a mixer function by definition, because the real address is always a mix of what both users provided: the recipient, and the sender. And in case of cut-through, some data from the middle can be removed, or placed as a commitment, by tweaking R-value of a signature.

1c. I wonder if unconfirmed on-chain transaction can be considered a "possibly-transferrable IOU", if it is created in a way, that allows being joined with other transactions, without modifying signatures. For example, is SIGHASH_SINGLE|SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY considered a "possibly-transferrable IOU"? Because the final transaction can be different than sent by the user in this case.

1d. The transaction can be written with Homomorphic Encryption. Which means, even if it is P2P-based mixing, it is still mixing, right?

2. In case of Lightning Network, it is possible to broadcast the old state of the channel, so yes, "it is possible for the mixer to steal property
passing through it". Even though it may be hard, it is still possible, because you have no guarantee, that the attacker is not a mining pool. And it is not that kind of a bug, which can be "fixed", because you need a pair of unidirectional channels, to prevent stealing (and people won't do that, because that would cause more on-chain transactions, than if one channel can transfer coins in both directions). Which means, even if it will be fixed, it will not be "just a quick fix".

3. No KYC is collected in Lightning Network, Silent Payments or cut-through. This requirement is weird, because that means if it would be collected, it could be allowed. But what if we have Alice->Bob->Charlie, and Bob passed through KYC, but the final on-chain transaction is just Alice->Charlie?

About not banned things: yes, Lightning Network can be treated as an exchange, but it has a mixing function, so is it allowed, or not?

Now, this is what I'm talking about, the perfect opportunity to introduce LN to the world. Now ban this if you can.😅

Edit: @gmaxwell , we need your opinion officially on this matter please. We are about to cripple everything Bitcoin related.

It probably is:

I wonder, how Lightning Network is classified. Is it a mixer or not? Because:
1. You can open a channel (a decentralized equivalent of putting coins into some mixer).
2. You can send your coins inside LN (this is where "mixing" phase can happen).
3. You can close a channel, or even get your coins back, without closing your channel (because of swaps, and you can end up with different on-chain coins than you started with).
And then, the question is: if you have some LN wallet, that allows you to get your on-chain coins, without closing your channel, and that is the default behavior of this wallet (for example Phoenix wallet did that), then is it a mixer or not?

Here's your answer:

So unless Trezor explicitly markets it as a mixing service, that's when it is no longer allowed. Otherwise, it's good to go.

---

More and more things are getting censor in the forum as long as government dislikes them. This means sometime in the near future, the number of things we can freely talk about and link to will be tiny.

Well, let's just say many people on this forum hate Trump with a passion (despite Biden being 1000 times worse than Trump's presidency)...

Some people don't like working (neither cooking), but they do like food delivery from McDonalds and other sources.

That's why they need their mixer income...

They will flip eco-friendly burgers made from bugs/insects/worms. (yet another "conspiracy theory" according to some folks on this forum)

And what about something liker a Trezor hardware wallet? They now have a built-in service called "coinjoin" which in my view is nothing else but a mixer. So will anything about Trezor also be banned

If the cryptans are so stupid that they don’t see the difference between “catch/punish criminals” and “deprive all people of their rights to avoid potential crimes,” then this is a completely fair outcome.
And by the way, the money received for flipping hamburgers can only be spent with permission from officials, so as not to increase the carbon footprint or anything else. But this is not slavery, this is all for your good!  

I mentioned that since AFAIK only Wasabi Wallet support WabiSabi coordinator. As for Whirlpool, user have choice between Samourai and Sparrow wallet. Although in practice, running either would be nice.

C'mon guys. Why the grim faces? It is not the end of the world. There is a world outside this forum too.

You can still flip burgers. It is not that bad.



Cheer up 

There are no restrictions on websites that advertise mixers, because it is practically impossible to control this.
What is not authorized will be promoting sites that are camouflaged mixers.

Imagine that a ChipNews (formerly ChipMix) appeared now, with news about crypto, and there was a mixing option, which did not take to any third party website, and the person could mix directly on ChipMixNews? This is a camouflaged mixing site.

Yeap, I guess that probably that was mentioned in FIOD article under the point about KYT policy:


Of course we don't support criminal activity in Bitcoin or crypto, but according to the Chainalysis data just 0.12-0.24% of Bitcoin transactions is probably related with crime; and as for Bitcoin mixing, then more than 90% mixing is made by law-abiding people. So if mixers don't let to use their service for those who stole money by hacking different projects etc, most of mixer users will even not find that out ever.

If forum users are wanted for advertising the mixer, then the financial regulator from the states has completely blown the roof off its hinges. And where, then, is the freedom of choice that is so boasted in America?
Well, everyone uses these services for illegal purposes. Where is the logic here? Where did she go? Has the system really degraded so much that we are seeing all this in real life? What kind of chaos is this, actually?
Are all those who use the services or have at least some indirect connection to these sites already a criminal? Are people in power out of their minds? Isn't it time for them to undergo a psychiatric examination to determine their sanity?

Exactly, I guarantee 100% that before the creation of not only mixers, but also Bitcoin, no one had ever bought prohibited substances, weapons, carried out terrorist activities, or the like. Everyone lived in peace and complete harmony. But for some reason the government decided to get to the bottom of some sites that provide crypto mixing services. Or maybe it would be better for them to do something really real and not waste money on such proceedings? Do taxpayers know about all this? What is their money used for, what absurdity?

You're right. In this case, all casinos and lotteries controlled by the government should be banned. And what? Are they weak? Or is the thirst for money much greater than rationality? That's what I'm talking about. What happened to America? Where is she headed? Toward dictatorship and totalitarianism? A little more and it will become a reality.

-------------

If we think logically from the regulator's point of view. Let me give you an example. There is some gathering of people. It doesn't matter on what issue. 100 people came. Among them are: maniac, pedophile, terrorist, drug addict, serial killer and hacker. All other law-abiding citizens do not even know that there are such characters among them. Therefore, everyone at this meeting should be punished, because they, by the same logic, are also criminals. Is everything clear to everyone? Well, what will we come to in this case?
-------------

A few years ago there were no mixers, but criminal acts were still committed. Now, I suppose, I have become too lazy to lift my ass from the chair.

But what about those people who live in a totalitarian state under a strict dictatorship and want to send donations to opposition bloggers? With such a decision you destroy not only the will of people for change and freedom, but also the personality as a whole. Threat of physical destruction if the government finds out about the sponsorship of such opposition people. All hope for any positive changes disappears. Good fucking democracy.

+1
I completely agree, the current wording of the ban is “fundamentally flawed”, but given what is called “existing mixing services” we find that they themselves are not true mixing services “dark web mixers” and have restrictions on conducting some transactions. It is true that this is wrong and a mixing service should not do this. But look at the conditions of use for these two blenders:

https://[banned mixer]/en/terms-and-conditions


https://[banned mixer]/en/pages/terms


So even the providers of these services cooperate with the authorities and payments may not be processed if they are on the OFAC list, yet they are mixing services.

Frankly, I was hoping that several proposals would be put forward and voted on. In the end, it is a community-run forum and not controlled by a single individual, and I do not think that anyone will help in promoting illegal services.

Crazy, unexpected decision. Totally understandable considering that the cons associated with mixers outweigh the pros. Sad to see many members getting their livelihood getting affected by this, but it is what it is.

The forum will keep moving forward as usual and mixer related discussions(mostly) will be a thing of the past.