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Topic: Monthly average USD/bitcoin price & trend - page 27. (Read 118254 times)

full member
Activity: 233
Merit: 101
November 09, 2013, 10:23:42 AM
#70
A further complexity is that bitcoin, once fully adopted, will continue to grow, or shrink as the case may be, with the change in the underlying economy.

This is (likely) true concerning adoption. Price, however, will much more likely go exponentially higher, then parabolically even higher, and then crash. And that top value will never be reached anymore, it is a true bubble. My present estimate is that you can buy dozens of luxury apartments with 1 bitcoin at the top.

I was under the impression your latest estimates for BTC top to be < 500K? I thought I was following your logic, but this seems to suggest another order of mag. ....Oh I now understand. You expect the bubble top to be another order higher and then crash back to 300K. Correct?
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
November 09, 2013, 07:21:07 AM
#69
A further complexity is that bitcoin, once fully adopted, will continue to grow, or shrink as the case may be, with the change in the underlying economy.

More appropriately it will grow or shrink with the change in the underlying internet economy (which proportionately is growing MUCH faster than the rest).  Bitcoin's primary sweetspot, where it remains unchallenged and supreme, is for the internet transaction.

For the worlds beyond the internet, it is mostly uncharted territory yet.  Bitcoin needs proxies there, debit cards, gyft cards, fiat gateways, bitpay, coinbase, tangible currency (coin), and the rest.
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
November 09, 2013, 07:05:32 AM
#68
A further complexity is that bitcoin, once fully adopted, will continue to grow, or shrink as the case may be, with the change in the underlying economy.

This is (likely) true concerning adoption. Price, however, will much more likely go exponentially higher, then parabolically even higher, and then crash. And that top value will never be reached anymore, it is a true bubble. My present estimate is that you can buy dozens of luxury apartments with 1 bitcoin at the top.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
November 08, 2013, 10:32:02 PM
#67
I believe that the adoption of bitcoin as a technological innovation will follow a logistic function. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistic_function ...

Quote
Historically, when new products are introduced there is an intense amount of research and development which leads to dramatic improvements in quality and reductions in cost. This leads to a period of rapid industry growth. Some of the more famous examples are: railroads, incandescent light bulbs, electrification, the Ford Model T, air travel and computers. Eventually, dramatic improvement and cost reduction opportunities are exhausted, the product or process are in widespread use with few remaining potential new customers, and markets become saturated.

Accordingly logistic functions have this relevant property ...
Quote
The initial stage of growth is approximately exponential; then, as saturation begins, the growth slows, and at maturity, growth stops.



The X-axis is relative time and the Y-axis is percent adoption. We should observe linear bitcoin growth when it reaches 50% of adoption. Presently, we are far, far away from 50% adoption.

A further complexity is that bitcoin, once fully adopted, will continue to grow, or shrink as the case may be, with the change in the underlying economy.

Nice chart and analysis
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 501
Stephen Reed
November 08, 2013, 07:01:58 PM
#66
I believe that the adoption of bitcoin as a technological innovation will follow a logistic function. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistic_function ...

Quote
Historically, when new products are introduced there is an intense amount of research and development which leads to dramatic improvements in quality and reductions in cost. This leads to a period of rapid industry growth. Some of the more famous examples are: railroads, incandescent light bulbs, electrification, the Ford Model T, air travel and computers. Eventually, dramatic improvement and cost reduction opportunities are exhausted, the product or process are in widespread use with few remaining potential new customers, and markets become saturated.

Accordingly logistic functions have this relevant property ...
Quote
The initial stage of growth is approximately exponential; then, as saturation begins, the growth slows, and at maturity, growth stops.



The X-axis is relative time and the Y-axis is percent adoption. We should observe linear bitcoin growth when it reaches 50% of adoption.

A further complexity is that bitcoin, once fully adopted, will continue to grow, or shrink as the case may be, with the change in the underlying economy.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
November 08, 2013, 03:00:47 PM
#65
Quote from: kdrop22 on Today at 05:33:09 PM
Interesting chart from Reddit
https://i.imgur.com/GOYWUMo.png

To quote the fine print from any major stockbroker, "past performance is no guarantee of future results". As much as I'd personally like to see a constant linear growth in the price of BTC, I highly doubt the continued accuracy of this model...

***************
I agree, there is no guarantee of exponential growth in the future. As the market grows bigger and bigger, the growth patter will move from exponential to linear and so on....
sr. member
Activity: 271
Merit: 250
November 08, 2013, 01:27:20 PM
#64
Interesting chart from Reddit
https://i.imgur.com/GOYWUMo.png

To quote the fine print from any major stockbroker, "past performance is no guarantee of future results". As much as I'd personally like to see a constant linear growth in the price of BTC, I highly doubt the continued accuracy of this model...
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
November 08, 2013, 12:33:09 PM
#63
Interesting chart from Reddit
https://i.imgur.com/GOYWUMo.png

donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
November 06, 2013, 02:56:45 AM
#62
funny fact:

In June of 2010, one Bitcoin was worth $0.004 : Now one dollar is worth 0.004 Bitcoin
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
November 06, 2013, 02:48:01 AM
#61
dree12 has compiled the data from Mt.Gox (6/2013-> Stamp) with greater precision:

Code:
"2010-08","0.0647499670783823"
"2010-09","0.061954020274147086"
"2010-10","0.10582991127505428"
"2010-11","0.27056745743101035"
"2010-12","0.24010984584593584"
"2011-01","0.38858180917534374"
"2011-02","0.8960578304157628"
"2011-03","0.8507913320085179"
"2011-04","1.502187236294624"
"2011-05","6.384160766440483"
"2011-06","18.548271754213044"
"2011-07","14.1037341177656"
"2011-08","9.752957091428916"
"2011-09","5.759628530472161"
"2011-10","3.301818830471977"
"2011-11","2.59770303849321"
"2011-12","3.508841773813272"
"2012-01","6.106948530818074"
"2012-02","5.0629012809481555"
"2012-03","4.88026245169567"
"2012-04","4.979702748141324"
"2012-05","5.062788532597013"
"2012-06","6.026649772612354"
"2012-07","8.043786615126523"
"2012-08","10.87919315075586"
"2012-09","11.465951649610172"
"2012-10","11.578438689611142"
"2012-11","11.505423856163247"
"2012-12","13.329754439355359"
"2013-01","16.30940895076361"
"2013-02","25.933876759727013"
"2013-03","58.144059684555"
"2013-04","115.09268141788563"
"2013-05","112.81303150360635"
"2013-06","108.3900675602325"
"2013-07","83.80252582024497"
"2013-08","105.79276538949902"
"2013-09","124.32868197086977"
"2013-10","156.4950743054255"

When I have the opportunity, I will check if this should replace the earlier data, and recalculate if needed.

Since many want the historical trend to have predictive value, I will try to see if it could have some. My method will likely be based on observing the changes in slope, and it will prompt selling if we are clearly above the trend and buying in every other case.
legendary
Activity: 1002
Merit: 1000
Bitcoin
November 04, 2013, 01:32:50 PM
#60
Interesting analysis.

Something to bear in mind when considering the exchange rate skyrocketing is the possibility (or probability) that not only will bitcoin become more valuable, but fiat will become less valuable. So while an exchange rate of $300,000 in 2016 sounds optimistic, it is less so if the dollar fell significantly. After all, the trend line only compares relative value, not intrinsic value.

Either way, the argument for having some exposure to bitcoin in its infancy is sustained.

+1

Totally agree.. relative value.. everything is there !
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
Who's there?
November 03, 2013, 04:44:58 PM
#59
In the least squares method only the biggest values matter. So the shape of the curve in linear space would be defined based only on this year data. Which is not what we want. So using least squares in logarifmic space was the right way.
In that case I'm probably not sure about "what we want" here. Note: I'm not arguing that we shouldn't do it like rpietila did, just that it isn't clear-cut.
We are trying to find an exponent curve that matches bitcoin growth for it's whole history. That curve will let us predict bitcoin future growth. But for it to work, some assumptions must hold:

i. Mechanics of bitcoin growth is viral: basically every 3 month each old user "infects" a new user. That causes the exponent.
ii. The rate of infection is constant, whether BTC worth 1c or 10K$, whether is it a crypto-geek infecting his friend or multi-billion hedge fund infecting it's competitor.

This is obviously a big simplification. Any model is simplification. The trick is to get complexity just right, to go between Scylla and Charybda. If the model is too simple, it's predictions will be too far off the mark. If it's too complex, we won't have enough data to setup it's parameters.

1.The simplest model: OP.  IMO, it's too simple (I doubt the assumption ii) and, as result, too optimistic.

2. More complex: Zarathustra's model. Here he discards assumption ii, and draws a 4-segment line instead of 1 line. So the Scylla is better, but there is already a bit of Charybda: he lack enough data to draw the 4-th segment, since he draws by peaks and we don't know where the current peak is going to be. Maybe the better approach would be to use just 2 segments, with joint somwhere in 2011 and match them using least squares technique.

3. Even more complex: Staircase model. Discard both assumption. Instead take others.
i. Growth is viral: but it is not users that are infected, but markets. Geek market infects SR market, SR market infects amator speculators market etc. It causes "staircase" curve. Vertical part is filling up of the market, horysontal part - building of infrastructure for the next market.
ii. The rate of infection is different for each step and depends on relative size of markets, how long it takes to build infrastructure etc.

Unfortunately this model would be practically useless because of Charybda: we don't know all the required parameters.

So I would suggest improving rpietila's model: using least squares method, match (in log scale) either 2-segment line, or a log curve.

Anyone with experience of a proper math package?
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1001
CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
November 03, 2013, 08:17:21 AM
#58
Interesting analysis.

Something to bear in mind when considering the exchange rate skyrocketing is the possibility (or probability) that not only will bitcoin become more valuable, but fiat will become less valuable. So while an exchange rate of $300,000 in 2016 sounds optimistic, it is less so if the dollar fell significantly. After all, the trend line only compares relative value, not intrinsic value.

Either way, the argument for having some exposure to bitcoin in its infancy is sustained.
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
November 03, 2013, 07:22:31 AM
#57
Flattening out?

I will stick to just one trendline, thank you Smiley

As outlined in the OP, there are myriads of other methods in drawing trendlines that differ in the following main points from mine:
- Daily exchange data used / this uses monthly volume weighted
- Starting 7/2010 when Gox opened / this starts 1/2009 when Bitcoin started
- Trend drawn by hand / this trend drawn using least squares method.
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
November 03, 2013, 04:13:32 AM
#56
I haven't made up my mind about how large the effect of using least squares in logarithmic space to fit a linear model vs. using least squares in linear space to fit an exponential model is. It might be negligible (or non-existant?), but it might also be large.
In the least squares method only the biggest values matter. So the shape of the curve in linear space would be defined based only on this year data. Which is not what we want. So using least squares in logarifmic space was the right way.

In that case I'm probably not sure about "what we want" here. Note: I'm not arguing that we shouldn't do it like rpietila did, just that it isn't clear-cut.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
November 03, 2013, 03:59:01 AM
#55

chart courtesy to oper128




Flattening out?
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
November 03, 2013, 03:50:18 AM
#54
OP updated with chart and methodology!
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
November 03, 2013, 02:11:02 AM
#53
Remember, even if there were no large holders, only 22 million people could own 1 full bitcoin

In the end it will be worth an unfathomable amount or nothing

, where "nothing" means "0 <= X < $10,000" per BTC.
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
November 03, 2013, 02:09:50 AM
#52
If we were talking about penetration, the above would hold. But now we are talking about price, and very likely the price will overshoot before finding a long-term realistic value. This has happened before with Internet stocks - userbases have grown steadily but price has behaved erratically, first growing really quickly, overshooting, collapsing, and finding stability.
Why would the new world currency "find stability"? Either the powers that be decide to let bitcoin live and take over which will lead to infinite $/Ƀ or they destroy it which leads to 0$/Ƀ. I see little in between so I also disagree with the trend flattening out at some level. Bitcoin gains utility with every business that accepts it and as soon as I can use Bitcoin for everything, I will just close my bank account and say goodbye to fiat. Why would anybody stay with fiat if bitcoin gains ultimate trust with a large percentage of the global economy?

Stability against the USD? Of course not, since the latter will die.

Stability means that wages and prices are denominated in XBT and do not fluctuate so much.

(I have always had the implicit assumption in my theories that "USD" means "2013USD" so as to only account for the bitcoin's rise, and not the USD's demise.)
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1001
November 03, 2013, 12:35:48 AM
#51
Remember, even if there were no large holders, only 22 million people could own 1 full bitcoin

In the end it will be worth an unfathomable amount or nothing
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