Motosport General discussion tread --- Formula1, MotoGP, WTCC, ETCC, DTM..... - page 450.

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Quote from: tokeweed on March 01, 2021, 08:06:43 AM

^ Yeah I guess we’ll see. But I’d argue Vettel’s ‘deterioration’ has prolly more to do with low motivation and something psychological than lack of skill. If you guys remember he did some brilliant stuff when he was at Torro Rosso and was one of the most talented young drivers around at the time.

I think him being at a smaller team for a couple of years will do him good. There will be less pressure for results and prolly get back his love for racing.

True but if you can't keep the pressure you are can't be a top driver.
He made so many mistakes these 2 years it was embarrassing.

He maybe will find a feeling of a new peace in the new team with less pressure but if he can't beat Stroll I can see him ending his carrier in 2022.

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Quote from: Cnut237 on March 01, 2021, 04:16:04 PM

I'd agree with the motivation thing for 2020 certainly, it's difficult for anyone to be motivated when they know their contract isn't being renewed. But I can't see it being a valid point for prior seasons. He did look good some years back at Toro Rosso, but there is a gulf of difference between being a talented young driver (latest example being George Russell), and being truly world-class.

I think it's not worth to pay much attention what happened in 2020 season. As I said before, for Vettel this season was something like living with your ex. It was difficult to expect good results. But yeah, there is no excuses for previous seasons. But I think it's not right to put all blame on him. Ferrari as a team made lot of bad decisions and mistakes.

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Quote from: swogerino on February 24, 2021, 07:28:54 AM

At Ferrari he failed miserably for six consecutive years and in a couple of them Ferrari was not that behind and at some tracks even equal to Mercedes.

Exactly. Whilst Mercedes have in general been better, there was one season when Ferrari definitely had the better car in the second half of the season, and a better driver would likely have won them the championship.

Quote from: tokeweed on March 01, 2021, 08:06:43 AM

I’d argue Vettel’s ‘deterioration’ has prolly more to do with low motivation and something psychological than lack of skill. If you guys remember he did some brilliant stuff when he was at Torro Rosso and was one of the most talented young drivers around at the time.

I'd agree with the motivation thing for 2020 certainly, it's difficult for anyone to be motivated when they know their contract isn't being renewed. But I can't see it being a valid point for prior seasons. He did look good some years back at Toro Rosso, but there is a gulf of difference between being a talented young driver (latest example being George Russell), and being truly world-class.

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Quote from: Koal-84 on February 22, 2021, 08:53:01 AM

A explain from Yamaha why they wasn't given Morbidelli a factory bike for the session 2021 and he must drive with the bike from 2019, at the last season the older bike are the best Yamaha bike Grin

https://us.motorsport.com/motogp/news/yamaha-morbidelli-factory-bike-petronas/5418117

~snip~

The reason is understandable. Covid is the team's main problem. I understand how much money is being spent developing Yamaha motorbikes and I think this happens to all teams. The choice of old motorbikes in my opinion still makes sense because last year they good. If this year Franco Morbidelli is able to do well, it will make him special to be on last year's bike. Maybe will occur Morbidelli next season could have been better than Rossi. :grin:

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^ Yeah I guess we’ll see. But I’d argue Vettel’s ‘deterioration’ has prolly more to do with low motivation and something psychological than lack of skill. If you guys remember he did some brilliant stuff when he was at Torro Rosso and was one of the most talented young drivers around at the time.

I think him being at a smaller team for a couple of years will do him good. There will be less pressure for results and prolly get back his love for racing.

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Quote from: tokeweed on February 25, 2021, 09:22:01 AM

As said driving style coupled with the car matters a lot. Vettel’s style mostly doesn’t have a lot of pace, so he needs a grippier car with more downforce than a faster car to come out ahead cos he has a knack to be slightly faster at turns during qualifying. That car during his championship days at RBR wasn’t really the fastest per se but it had a lot more downforce the the rest.

Merc as the best of both worlds, good aero and the best PU.

Well, with RBR he was fighting with a mediocre driver like Webber.
We will see in 1 month if he can beat Stroll or not.

If he can't beat him he will lose a lot of fans.

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He might still be sore, maybe have a scar too, then you have to smile and maybe he can't do that either ! Hope he's well soon. I really would like Alpine to have some success, at the moment in France it's rather looking like the brand might disappear again.

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Alonso will skip the F1 presentation of this car, Alpine aka old Renault.
He is still healing from the incident he got last month. He should recover for the start of the season and probably for tests too.

Tests are in 2 weeks.

https://www.tuttosport.com/news/formula-1/2021/02/27-79516710/f1_alonso_ancora_convalescente_non_ci_sara_alla_presentazione_di_alpine

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Quote from: aesma on February 24, 2021, 06:34:38 PM

Vettel was good at qualifying, not sure it's still the case. To manage the perfect lap, you need supreme confidence in the car and in yourself. Looking at some of Hamilton's laps, and Vettel's when at RedBull you can see how close they are to the limit, it's beautiful. If you put Vettel in a Mercedes now, against Lewis, it would be very difficult for him psychologically. Also, even if he has pole, there would be no team order, and we know Hamilton is quite good at taking back first place from 2nd...

It wouldn't be a sensible move if they put two big F1 pilots in the same team I think. There could be so much conflicts between them. But let's say that they did it. Vettel could really make difficulties for Hamilton especially in qualifying. When it comes to the race, I think Hamilton would be the winner. Grin

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on February 24, 2021, 06:45:51 PM

Quote from: tokeweed on February 24, 2021, 07:35:49 AM

It’s a matter of style and how good some drivers are vs others. Vettel is mostly good at qualifying imo.. So he’ll always need the faster car to be at the front of the grid to be consistent. And this is what I think, if Vettel and Hamilton are at Merc together, I think Vettel will beat Hamilton 7 - 3 out of 10 qualifying... I think despite Leclerc beating Vettel at Ferrari last year.

Vettel has been demolished by LeClerc in qualifications.

Source: https://www.racefans.net/2020/12/16/team-mate-battles-2020-the-final-score-vettel-vs-leclerc/

This for 2020.

In 2019 was 9 Vettel 12 Leclerc, Also Leclerc did more pole positions and winning at his 1st year with Ferrari.

As said driving style coupled with the car matters a lot. Vettel’s style mostly doesn’t have a lot of pace, so he needs a grippier car with more downforce than a faster car to come out ahead cos he has a knack to be slightly faster at turns during qualifying. That car during his championship days at RBR wasn’t really the fastest per se but it had a lot more downforce the the rest.

Merc as the best of both worlds, good aero and the best PU.

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Quote from: tokeweed on February 24, 2021, 07:35:49 AM

It’s a matter of style and how good some drivers are vs others. Vettel is mostly good at qualifying imo.. So he’ll always need the faster car to be at the front of the grid to be consistent. And this is what I think, if Vettel and Hamilton are at Merc together, I think Vettel will beat Hamilton 7 - 3 out of 10 qualifying... I think despite Leclerc beating Vettel at Ferrari last year.

I don't have the same idea. Vettel is not as good as his old times. I know that Ferrari was really terrible but still he could have beaten Leclerc. If Vettel and Hamilton both were at Mercedes, Vettel could have a better performance than Bottas for sure but I think Hamilton would still destroy him in qualifying and races both. Hamilton is really spectacular despite his age.

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Quote from: tokeweed on February 24, 2021, 07:35:49 AM

It’s a matter of style and how good some drivers are vs others. Vettel is mostly good at qualifying imo.. So he’ll always need the faster car to be at the front of the grid to be consistent. And this is what I think, if Vettel and Hamilton are at Merc together, I think Vettel will beat Hamilton 7 - 3 out of 10 qualifying... I think despite Leclerc beating Vettel at Ferrari last year.

Vettel has been demolished by LeClerc in qualifications.

Source: https://www.racefans.net/2020/12/16/team-mate-battles-2020-the-final-score-vettel-vs-leclerc/

This for 2020.

In 2019 was 9 Vettel 12 Leclerc, Also Leclerc did more pole positions and winning at his 1st year with Ferrari.

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Vettel was good at qualifying, not sure it's still the case. To manage the perfect lap, you need supreme confidence in the car and in yourself. Looking at some of Hamilton's laps, and Vettel's when at RedBull you can see how close they are to the limit, it's beautiful. If you put Vettel in a Mercedes now, against Lewis, it would be very difficult for him psychologically. Also, even if he has pole, there would be no team order, and we know Hamilton is quite good at taking back first place from 2nd...

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It’s a matter of style and how good some drivers are vs others. Vettel is mostly good at qualifying imo.. So he’ll always need the faster car to be at the front of the grid to be consistent. And this is what I think, if Vettel and Hamilton are at Merc together, I think Vettel will beat Hamilton 7 - 3 out of 10 qualifying... I think despite Leclerc beating Vettel at Ferrari last year.

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Quote from: Cnut237 on February 24, 2021, 03:06:52 AM

Quote from: aesma on February 23, 2021, 04:34:24 AM

Lance has to prove he's worthy of an F1 drive, and Vettel hasn't to prove anything

Vettel still has a lot of doubters, me included. To some people he doesn't have to prove anything, to others he does. It certainly won't look great for him if Stroll outperforms him - not that I'm expecting that to happen, I think Vettel will beat Stroll, because Stroll on evidence so far is an average driver at best, whereas Vettel is a good (but not great) driver.

Of course he has to prove himself.He was only better than his team mate which was an old Mark Webber at Redbull and at that time RedBull was in another planet compared to other cars performance.

At Ferrari he failed miserably for six consecutive years and in a couple of them Ferrari was not that behind and at some tracks even equal to Mercedes.He had his chances and now he has the last chance to prove something.If Stroll beats him like LeClerc did I think he would leave F1 not in one of the best ways.

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Quote from: aesma on February 23, 2021, 04:34:24 AM

Lance has to prove he's worthy of an F1 drive, and Vettel hasn't to prove anything, remember he easily beat various teammates at RedBull. You can be a mediocre driver and a world champion on a freak year (like Button, and I'm not saying Button is a bad driver, but the year he was champion, he didn't need to be a very good one), but not a 4-times world champion. Is he a Senna or Prost ? No. Nonetheless I do think he will want to show he still got it, otherwise he might not long stay in F1.

Quote from: coinlocket$ on February 22, 2021, 04:46:34 PM

Fausto Gresini died due Covid. MotoGP will never be the same.

Not sure what will happen now to his teams and drivers.

Too bad, he wasn't that old and seemed in good shape. RIP.

The death of Gresini is very sad, especially because it will be very difficult for the team after this year. The departure of Aprilia and the search for a new brand (maybe Suzuki) but without a boss, the survival of the team is very difficult.

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Quote from: aesma on February 23, 2021, 04:34:24 AM

Lance has to prove he's worthy of an F1 drive, and Vettel hasn't to prove anything

Vettel still has a lot of doubters, me included. To some people he doesn't have to prove anything, to others he does. It certainly won't look great for him if Stroll outperforms him - not that I'm expecting that to happen, I think Vettel will beat Stroll, because Stroll on evidence so far is an average driver at best, whereas Vettel is a good (but not great) driver.

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Lance has to prove he's worthy of an F1 drive, and Vettel hasn't to prove anything, remember he easily beat various teammates at RedBull. You can be a mediocre driver and a world champion on a freak year (like Button, and I'm not saying Button is a bad driver, but the year he was champion, he didn't need to be a very good one), but not a 4-times world champion. Is he a Senna or Prost ? No. Nonetheless I do think he will want to show he still got it, otherwise he might not long stay in F1.

Quote from: coinlocket$ on February 22, 2021, 04:46:34 PM

Fausto Gresini died due Covid. MotoGP will never be the same.

Not sure what will happen now to his teams and drivers.

Too bad, he wasn't that old and seemed in good shape. RIP.

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on February 19, 2021, 04:08:26 PM

Well in the last 2 years he demonstrated to be a mediocre driver, nothing more.

Yes. Vettel is definitely over-rated. Perhaps he had more motivation when he was winning titles with Red Bull, or maybe he's just one of those drivers that can win from the front but crumbles when they face a challenge. But certainly his performances in the Ferrari have diminished his aura of being a world-class driver. It will be very interesting to see how he performs in the coming season.

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Quote from: AndySt on February 22, 2021, 06:59:16 PM

Quote from: coinlocket$ on February 19, 2021, 04:08:26 PM

Well in the last 2 years he demonstrated to be a mediocre driver, nothing more.
He has dominated by a rookie in a car where he was competing 2 years before for the title till the latest races.
Let's see if he can beat Stroll next year and then we can talk again about the value of the driver.

I think that despite the poor performances in recent years, Vettel should still be ahead of Lance Stroll. Another question is that given the very close family ties of the team owner and one of the drivers, I think that Vettel will not be able to count on an exceptional attitude to his person in this team Wink

However, I hope it will not be back and Vettel will not be deprived of attention, or if strange the whole point of these changes composition Wink

@coinlocket$ I have zero expectations from Vettel because over the years I kept saying okay he’ll win the next race, but that next race never game and now I believe that he’s lost his touch and hence I don’t expect any miracles from him. Furthermore I wonder how long will he continue in F1, if he continues to underperform like he’s being doing in the past few seasons?.

Source:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.vettel-admits-he-came-close-to-retirement-before-signing-up-to-exciting.y1qk5UkhBfv5rbQGPnYnP.html (Was his retirement comments a PR stunt?)

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