Topic: MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering] - page 65. (Read 908607 times)

Well, I wasn't really talking about the border experience.  But I will say this:

Sure, as a visitor I get the whole 50 quetions when visiting the US and it's a bit disconcerting.  But I find it a bit weird that Americans coming home get the same experience....

As a Brit, coming home to Britain, they just scan my passport, loop up at me and nod, and maybe say barely one word, if that.  I know our border controls are just as bad as yours at making visitors unwelcome (at least visitors from outside the EU/EEA) but as a citizen coming home we never get that kind of treatment. 

You make excellent points, I've not been to the UK just to Rotterdam for a week or so and Ireland.

I will say this: When I re-ntered the USA, it was like getting into a prison or a military base, I don't know which.  I know as you say, that there is a different America at the borders, than what exists on the highways inside and also the banks.  But, the highway troopers and the bankers both know what's coming.  And they will do as they are told or they will lose their paychecks and pensions, I bet.

Please do not see me as saying America is better.  Just maybe, more ripe for the same kind of kick in the teeth that Europe has had, by Himmler and Shicklgruber and Joe Steel and Whomever the 12th, etc.  America does have a final phase of "Resistance against tyranny" like "show me your papers", but I do not advise my country go down the road of violence because it's a setup.

But, you spoke to the experience of US customs and border, and it is true, the interior Americans who do not ever travel, have no idea how different it is at the borders, so, presumably, when the "border" mentality, the SS mentality, merges into their cops/troopers/guardsmen (at some unknown % rate) they will probably be just as surprised as the Polish people were, when Ribbentrop and Stalin set them up as a meal.

Here in the UK many people carry no ID.  In fact, in the UK, quite a lot of people don't actually possess any government issued photo-ID at all.  We seem to manage just fine here without the ID culture that the US and many other European countries seem to espouse.

yap, its diferent country to country. I thought there is a ban of casino for some US state, or did I get this wrong?
Here were are not allowed to be without ID (if police stop us). Bar don't ask us for id though
ID is also prove of residance here in croatia.

Depends where you are in the EU.  Here in the UK, we don't have so much of an identify culture.  I'm always annoyed and angered when visiting the US that I'm asked to show my ID documents every time I visit a bar.  And I'm told that in the US you can be arrested for failing to carry your documents with you when driving a car, even if you are legally entitled to drive and are breaking no (other) laws.  As a Brit, I find that pretty shocking.  Here in Britain we're not used to being required to routinely carry identity documents, as one clearly is (IME) in the US.

roy

Yes, I would say they are better conditioned to surrender their identity papers when asked, and that is due to war weariness of generations in the EU, like, the post-war Europeans just want to get along, and who can blame them when so much war has destroyed their families?

Yes, as you say, Americans are less conditioned and so they may struggle a bit, but eventually they will learn to present their papers please?

Oh but I should add, that, when your people are conditioned like Pavlov's dog, well, if the government is captured or fails (always happens 100% of the time) then that same reflex can get you in an internment camp and/or killed.  I am just speaking of history, and history is my forte.  Thanks tho, you make good points and I respect everyone who learns a second language. 

English is not my native luanguage so I am not clear with your post.
Laundering money is only one reason,but whatever reason of bank having the same verification purpose apply here. Remember, when we exchange coins for fiat, annonimous currency term does not apply anymore, because simple fact, you do not have coins anymore. Exchange banking partner require ID in order to get fiat, what else can we say about it? Nothing, either we accept it or carry on with having coins only. Its simple virtual currency vs fiat conflict about regulation.

edit
On another hand;
I think that americans has different view on submiting the documents online and have different mentality towards it then let say europeans. Those in EU who play on online casino (before bitcoin) and forex or similar got used to it. To them there is nothing unusual of verification being mandatory with those services.
Beside, things change, bitcoin grew up in price and users and become massive. There is too much money here going on and banks got concerned and started to pressure exchange. Buttom line, we can not do nothing about it, exchange otc or using btc only.
I fully agree, we need to have something to prevent another mtgox. Ok, this went oof topic in full

And here we must ask further questions, shan't we?

Laundering money is done by "legit front".  Like, if Michael Corleone takes over a gumball and pinball concern, he will not just be making gumball and pinball machines.  BUT, everyone knows that.

So, it is like a 100 year+ line of oddness, that due to Internet, is now being affected in ways nobody thought possible.

Geez, would you please take a time and read posts from that post onwards? (tldr, some posters wanted to say like bitstamp did not make any announcement regarding aml policy when that is false.)
Bitstamp after they stated to use aml policy as mandatory (30.th september) did not aloowed to transfer the funds fiat or bitcoin without submitting documents. If user denied it, bitstamp would return the fund to the users bank and terminated account!
They are not a bank or regulated and with all fuss about money loundering of course they started to enforce aml verification!

I'd argue that any financial institution which has higher requirements for withdrawal than for deposit is probably engaging in fraud.

If you open an account at a US brokerage or bank, all "verification" takes place before they let you deposit money. Thereafter, the only question on withdrawal is whether there's enough in the account and whether the withdrawer is the same as the depositor. Difficulties with withdrawals are generally considered a strong indication of a scam.

^^^ Some users want email, they want it.  BUT, as explained above, the admins don't like that, because, when they get hacked, all those "waiting for email" users (dummies, really) are gonna get FAKE emails.

It is a threat vector, to always be sending emails, because that firehose can be stolen.  Having responsible and aware customers, is however, also a pipe dream.  So, email it is for now.  But, it is like 70/30 in favor of the scumbags at this point, in terms of balance of expectations.  The user's want holes for exploitation, because, convenience.  The admins want to patch the holes, because, their power can be usurped and used in a nanosecond --and it gets used directly against the users!

Good luck solving it, but I have taken threads to 2000+ pages, so if this thread causes no more Goxxings, then it is a worthy thread for exchange discussion of all kinds, imo.

I'am sorry, but announcment of verification was not fundamental change in user agreemant. Bitstamp had from the start a policy of considering email as unsafe and not taking it as communication chanell. Email can be sent once and this announcement were almost a month on their site where only blind would fail to notice it!
And for the last time, even if somebody did failed to notice it after that month period and refused to accept new policy of verification, he/she would get their funds back as per termination section in the TOS!
Some service like bitstamp do not take email as communication chanel, deal with it! Go on thier site if you use them, how hard is that?
I found those who decline to be verified as fishy and if I had a exchange I would denie them a service as well!
Some people are never happy, I am sure if we had situation where email was sent, then soon some would find something else! This disscusion started first that bitstamp did not had any announcement, then that it was an facebook statement, then it was burried somewhere, that users lost their btc.... come on!
Its not like bitstamp took the funds for those who refused verification,its is almost 6 months old news, so can we drop this?

Um... yeah, that's not good enough... news notifications are for lesser news items, like, notification of expected downtime/upgrades... a promotion they may be running (half off fees for the month)... that kind of thing.

This isn't just a news item, this is a fundamental change to the business agreement between the exchange and the customer who's funds are held.

News notification setting or not, this type of a change, demands direct email notification irregardless of any news notification setting.

This wasn't just a news item.

=squeak=

^^^ pfft all these exchanges are so desirous of credibility.

But they don't do shit for BTC, except let people run casinos on the notion.  But hey, people love casinos --that stay up!

You did not read that users do not get emails if they have switched off news notifications, do you? (Or you dismiss it on purpose?)

So they want to hide announcement because they did not bothered to send a email, but on another end they had that same announcement for a month on the home, account and news page beside big notice if user want to transfer funds! In addition users can have swirched off email notifications and bitstamp state they do not use email as they find it unsafe? Is that what you want to say, is that your argument? Really?
Further, they say really clear that they do not communicate via email what is in their TOS - they find it unsafe and can cause many problems? That was thir decision and I find it justified because phishing emails and anybody can pose as bitstamp. Email can not be used for official announcements!
Unless you suggest they want to have a problems with angry users and that they steal users funds?
I guess you are consipiricy thorist and you assume too much! Some people would always find something to bitch about, it does not matter how stupid it is!
I'am out too. I guess you won't accept any argument and just arguing for sake of arguing.

They didn't bother to send an email, and they had no reason not to.
Unless they didn't want people to read that announcement.

This is getting nowhere, I'm out.

Nope, they did not did anything assy. They had announcement for a month before they started to use it. You need to be blind not to see it or not to log for a month of their site. They did everithng by the book as per terms.
Announcement were under home, accountant and news page and a big notice if you tried to tranfer funds! And you try to convince everybody that they try to hide it - come on, give me a break!
And finaly, if afterwards said announcement somebody refused to get verified, bitstamp would terminate users account and return the currency. Nothing fishy about it.
Stop to cry about if you do not care of the terms and try to suggest they did something fishy or steal the funds.

Who cares about the TOS, I didn't say they did something illegal, I said they did something assy.

Most TOS say something like "we are god you are shit we do whatever we please" anyway, so it's a bit pointless to consider them.

Why you do not check and read terms of service yourself first and then respond? Its all there, read and news section while you are at it! You fail to understoon the issue and will blame this or that whenever it suite you. Its up to user to use the platform and read notifications and news - its a fact mentioned in their tos!
They set the terms so every user who want to use their service must read it and accept it. Announcement was on their hompage and news page for almost a month before they started to use it! You are only one to blame if you have missed it, i am sure majority seen it and acknowledge it.

So to say it short; go and read whole terms of use and news section, then go on your bitstamp acc settings and look for notifications.

https://www.bitstamp.net/news/
( read the announcement from 4th september 2013. ( that announcement were also under most recent update under main account page)

https://www.bitstamp.net/terms-of-use/
Read account termination and modifications of the terms, no strike that - read the whole thing!

They were very clear regarding email in terms of service - they do not want to use it as form of communication or to take responsibillity. All relevant issues are handled on bitstamp site platform!

I am sure majority saw it and went to be verified or withdrew their btc before end of september. If some user did not want to be verified or missed the announcment, bitstamp will follow thir terms of service under termination section and terminate user account and returned the currency into their bank account. Bitstamp must follow their terms of service and not deviate from them.
Users approach bitstamp service and both party must follow and apply terms of service!

If you still do not understand and want to pass baselles blame on bitstamp while they did all by the book and terms of service and aml policy, i do not care and wont loose time and energy to convince you.

They did it wrong, they avoided to show it.

"The main page" is irrelevant since you can directly bookmark your account page, and if there is such an important announcement to be made, they could have easily added a warning on every page.

PLUS, if you didn't happen to login at all during this month, since you received no email, you had no way to know it.

This "it was in the homepage" excuse is quite very poor.

No, no, no, no.
It's up to them to inform the users with every reasonable means available.
Or do you seriously suggest that for every single service you use anywhere, it's up to you to inform daily about possible news?
I've rarely read nonsense so big.

Not their or our problems.
They could have sent them anyway.
It's up to the user to be able to receive it.

This, I did not know.
It would cast a whole new light in this subject.
Is there some link, somewhere, confirming it?