no, no, I don't think this particular foundation should do anything other then work on the protocol, try to follow Satoshi's vision and perhaps be the public 'smart' face of Bitcoin.
ah, good
Topic: Nefario - page 84. (Read 198716 times)
ah, good
The closing of GLBSE is a big kick to the bitcoin economy and also to the image that bitcoin is giving to the rest of the world.
Lately, lots of problem have ocurred in the bitcoin economy the thing with pirate, bitcoinica and now this.
As a person that believes that bitcoins have a big potential, I'm extremely afraid of this. Each of these events (closing of GLBSE, BS&T, etc.)
makes the bitcoin economy closer to the cliff. Maybe the next big fail in the bitcoin world could push it down the cliff and then it's all lost.
And why?
Because mediocre people are put in front of important points of the bitcoin economy. And that's what happened to Nefario in my opinion.
Lately, lots of problem have ocurred in the bitcoin economy the thing with pirate, bitcoinica and now this.
As a person that believes that bitcoins have a big potential, I'm extremely afraid of this. Each of these events (closing of GLBSE, BS&T, etc.)
makes the bitcoin economy closer to the cliff. Maybe the next big fail in the bitcoin world could push it down the cliff and then it's all lost.
And why?
Because mediocre people are put in front of important points of the bitcoin economy. And that's what happened to Nefario in my opinion.
These closing I think are just a natural process of the 'cleaning up' of the economy. In the beginning it's not surprising to see 'mediocre' people seeing an opportunity that isn't afforded to them in other sectors. Gradually more and more talented people will see opportunity here and will join the project.
This is why I support the foundation- we need some organizational group that at least is honestly smart and knows how these things work. It's not perfect and we certainly need more then one, but it's the start of a new chapter that is long over due.
You are correct: Shit fails, that's how a free market economy works (as opposed to what the (western) world is currenctly in the business of "running"). You got that right with the 'cleaning up' of the economy. It's sad about the glbse, but something obviously wasn't done right and now there's a void to be filled by competition.
I do not agree with your sentiment that an organizational group like the Bitcoin Foundation is needed to somehow "regulate, control" or do whatever fiddling you have in my mind with our free market. Are you suggesting the Bitcoin Foundation should run a stock exchange? I hope not.
no, no, I don't think this particular foundation should do anything other then work on the protocol, try to follow Satoshi's vision and perhaps be the public 'smart' face of Bitcoin.
The closing of GLBSE is a big kick to the bitcoin economy and also to the image that bitcoin is giving to the rest of the world.
Lately, lots of problem have ocurred in the bitcoin economy the thing with pirate, bitcoinica and now this.
As a person that believes that bitcoins have a big potential, I'm extremely afraid of this. Each of these events (closing of GLBSE, BS&T, etc.)
makes the bitcoin economy closer to the cliff. Maybe the next big fail in the bitcoin world could push it down the cliff and then it's all lost.
And why?
Because mediocre people are put in front of important points of the bitcoin economy. And that's what happened to Nefario in my opinion.
Lately, lots of problem have ocurred in the bitcoin economy the thing with pirate, bitcoinica and now this.
As a person that believes that bitcoins have a big potential, I'm extremely afraid of this. Each of these events (closing of GLBSE, BS&T, etc.)
makes the bitcoin economy closer to the cliff. Maybe the next big fail in the bitcoin world could push it down the cliff and then it's all lost.
And why?
Because mediocre people are put in front of important points of the bitcoin economy. And that's what happened to Nefario in my opinion.
These closing I think are just a natural process of the 'cleaning up' of the economy. In the beginning it's not surprising to see 'mediocre' people seeing an opportunity that isn't afforded to them in other sectors. Gradually more and more talented people will see opportunity here and will join the project.
This is why I support the foundation- we need some organizational group that at least is honestly smart and knows how these things work. It's not perfect and we certainly need more then one, but it's the start of a new chapter that is long over due.
You are correct: Shit fails, that's how a free market economy works (as opposed to what the (western) world is currenctly in the business of "running"). You got that right with the 'cleaning up' of the economy. It's sad about the glbse, but something obviously wasn't done right and now there's a void to be filled by competition.
I do not agree with your sentiment that an organizational group like the Bitcoin Foundation is needed to somehow "regulate, control" or do whatever fiddling you have in my mind with our free market. Are you suggesting the Bitcoin Foundation should run a stock exchange? I hope not.
Hm, checked reddit.com/r/bitcoin today, and I saw: Yet another scam/failure/mishap/fraud.
What words could cover this ? I first checked my mind, then my dictionary, then I went out in the street and screamed.
*emptiness*
What words could cover this ? I first checked my mind, then my dictionary, then I went out in the street and screamed.
*emptiness*
You should probably all be aware that Nefario is already planning on creating a legal, regulated Bitcoin stock exchange service (of some sort) once this blows over.
I don't mean to be a hater, but I think that's going to be a pretty hard road to go down. Stock exchanges are complicated financial services, perhaps best left to professionals, no?
Another interesting thing from the conference though was talk about the Bitcoin Scripting which could allow for exchanges to operate without any 3rd party. Companies could run the process themselves, or someone could develop software allowing people to run an exchange themselves.
Thats what I was thinking, kinda like trading ecrypted certificates. Make a place where you can post the sale of these certificates and then leave paying dividends to the issuer. Make some kind of rating system, where people who have bought sold like silk road can rate the sellers and the product.
GLBSE should have been a black market operation, no offense. The fact that the founder is known and visible and that the exchange is centralized is a big red flag.
Agreed. I always argued that GLBSE should be an unregulated platform for trades.
Good point. There was no way for the way GLBSE was run for it to operate in the public. That said, Bitcoin would benefit from a public regulated exchange, and then people can run black market ops through whatever other service they please.
You should probably all be aware that Nefario is already planning on creating a legal, regulated Bitcoin stock exchange service (of some sort) once this blows over.
I don't mean to be a hater, but I think that's going to be a pretty hard road to go down. Stock exchanges are complicated financial services, perhaps best left to professionals, no?
Another interesting thing from the conference though was talk about the Bitcoin Scripting which could allow for exchanges to operate without any 3rd party. Companies could run the process themselves, or someone could develop software allowing people to run an exchange themselves.
I'd be more concerned for the people who have money in GLBSE, not about how much they might have lost, but rather what they might legally be on the hook for.
Well, I'm not a lawyer but here's how I see it:
The asset issuers obtained money from the sale of securities on an illegal exchange.
The asset buyers are the victims.
You should probably all be aware that Nefario is already planning on creating a legal, regulated Bitcoin stock exchange service (of some sort) once this blows over.
The exact same thing happened with MtGox users, a while ago. Before MtGox had their ToS in place, they would hold your money ransom and force you to identify yourself to get it back. Nobody had been formally prevented of this. Some people honestly believed they could operate anonymously, as there was nothing saying they could not, and all of he sudden, "a terrible betrayal".
I've protested many times in the occasion, saying MtGox should at least give these people the chance of leaving with their money, if they did not agree to the new terms. There are many threads in this forum on this subject.
If MtGox didn't get a scammer tag due to that - what may be considered reasonable, since maybe they were being forced to act like that - giving a scammer tag to Nefario for the same kind of actions would be a double standard.
Plus, about violating GLBSE bylaws, Nefario is no longer liable for such break of contract if he's doing so under the threat of violence. The criminal wouldn't be him, but the person/group who's forcing him to act criminally - in the case, the state, as usual.
Theymos, I understand you're pissed off by him. He made a series of bad decisions. But if this whole mess was initiated by the state, Nefario is a victim as everybody else. Try your best to be an impartial and fair judge. I honestly have the feeling Nefario is not a scammer, at least not willingly so (of course I may be wrong).
I've protested many times in the occasion, saying MtGox should at least give these people the chance of leaving with their money, if they did not agree to the new terms. There are many threads in this forum on this subject.
If MtGox didn't get a scammer tag due to that - what may be considered reasonable, since maybe they were being forced to act like that - giving a scammer tag to Nefario for the same kind of actions would be a double standard.
Plus, about violating GLBSE bylaws, Nefario is no longer liable for such break of contract if he's doing so under the threat of violence. The criminal wouldn't be him, but the person/group who's forcing him to act criminally - in the case, the state, as usual.
Theymos, I understand you're pissed off by him. He made a series of bad decisions. But if this whole mess was initiated by the state, Nefario is a victim as everybody else. Try your best to be an impartial and fair judge. I honestly have the feeling Nefario is not a scammer, at least not willingly so (of course I may be wrong).
I agree.
Also, I'd like to point out - if we do see a prosecution/regulation/whatever you want to call if for the operation. That's a huge step toward making btc legit as a currency.
I don't know if Nefario really deserves a scammer tag. After seeing the talk it was crystal clear it wasn't an operation that knew what it was doing. That's perhaps the trouble of many of bitcoins enterprises, they are run by people who are more excited then they are knowledgable. Being Naieve isn't a scam, it's just kinda stupid (on the part of the scammie as well).
That said, Theymos makes a good point about having the feeling Nefario might be being squeezed by the government in some sort of plea deal in exchange for turning over records. Who knows how deep the Pirate nonsense has gotten.
I'd be more concerned for the people who have money in GLBSE, not about how much they might have lost, but rather what they might legally be on the hook for.
That said, Theymos makes a good point about having the feeling Nefario might be being squeezed by the government in some sort of plea deal in exchange for turning over records. Who knows how deep the Pirate nonsense has gotten.
I'd be more concerned for the people who have money in GLBSE, not about how much they might have lost, but rather what they might legally be on the hook for.
I will just chime in here to join the chorus of those who are glad not to have had any dealings with GLBSE. Listing Bitcoin Island on such a vulnerable securities exchange would have been a huge mistake.
Hopefully this episode will convince some of you to work towards investing in more real assets, real local economies, and real freedom from unwanted regulators, rather than any more shady anonymous "securities" and ponzi schemes.
If not, I'm afraid before too long Atlas may be the only one around here with both the foresight to recognize when the emperor is wearing no clothes, and the balls to actually point it out.
Hopefully this episode will convince some of you to work towards investing in more real assets, real local economies, and real freedom from unwanted regulators, rather than any more shady anonymous "securities" and ponzi schemes.
If not, I'm afraid before too long Atlas may be the only one around here with both the foresight to recognize when the emperor is wearing no clothes, and the balls to actually point it out.
Theymos,
Yes. It's a terrible betrayal.
The exact same thing happened with MtGox users, a while ago. Before MtGox had their ToS in place, they would hold your money ransom and force you to identify yourself to get it back. Nobody had been formally prevented of this. Some people honestly believed they could operate anonymously, as there was nothing saying they could not, and all of he sudden, "a terrible betrayal".
I've protested many times in the occasion, saying MtGox should at least give these people the chance of leaving with their money, if they did not agree to the new terms. There are many threads in this forum on this subject.
If MtGox didn't get a scammer tag due to that - what may be considered reasonable, since maybe they were being forced to act like that - giving a scammer tag to Nefario for the same kind of actions would be a double standard.
Plus, about violating GLBSE bylaws, Nefario is no longer liable for such break of contract if he's doing so under the threat of violence. The criminal wouldn't be him, but the person/group who's forcing him to act criminally - in the case, the state, as usual.
Theymos, I understand you're pissed off by him. He made a series of bad decisions. But if this whole mess was initiated by the state, Nefario is a victim as everybody else. Try your best to be an impartial and fair judge. I honestly have the feeling Nefario is not a scammer, at least not willingly so (of course I may be wrong).
So if you want to remain anonymous, you go penniless?
Yes. It's a terrible betrayal.
The exact same thing happened with MtGox users, a while ago. Before MtGox had their ToS in place, they would hold your money ransom and force you to identify yourself to get it back. Nobody had been formally prevented of this. Some people honestly believed they could operate anonymously, as there was nothing saying they could not, and all of he sudden, "a terrible betrayal".
I've protested many times in the occasion, saying MtGox should at least give these people the chance of leaving with their money, if they did not agree to the new terms. There are many threads in this forum on this subject.
If MtGox didn't get a scammer tag due to that - what may be considered reasonable, since maybe they were being forced to act like that - giving a scammer tag to Nefario for the same kind of actions would be a double standard.
Plus, about violating GLBSE bylaws, Nefario is no longer liable for such break of contract if he's doing so under the threat of violence. The criminal wouldn't be him, but the person/group who's forcing him to act criminally - in the case, the state, as usual.
Theymos, I understand you're pissed off by him. He made a series of bad decisions. But if this whole mess was initiated by the state, Nefario is a victim as everybody else. Try your best to be an impartial and fair judge. I honestly have the feeling Nefario is not a scammer, at least not willingly so (of course I may be wrong).
+1
can somebody translate this to English? I wasn't aware that gibberish was an actual dialect.
That's googletranslatorish.
You just made me LOL for real. The term "googletranslatorish" my have been around, but this was the first time I have seen it.
You put a smile on my face on what was starting to look like a crappy day (nothing related to GLBSE).
Firefox spell check wants to correct "googletranslatorish" to mistranslation
Theymos,
Yes. It's a terrible betrayal.
The exact same thing happened with MtGox users, a while ago. Before MtGox had their ToS in place, they would hold your money ransom and force you to identify yourself to get it back. Nobody had been formally prevented of this. Some people honestly believed they could operate anonymously, as there was nothing saying they could not, and all of he sudden, "a terrible betrayal".
I've protested many times in the occasion, saying MtGox should at least give these people the chance of leaving with their money, if they did not agree to the new terms. There are many threads in this forum on this subject.
If MtGox didn't get a scammer tag due to that - what may be considered reasonable, since maybe they were being forced to act like that - giving a scammer tag to Nefario for the same kind of actions would be a double standard.
Plus, about violating GLBSE bylaws, Nefario is no longer liable for such break of contract if he's doing so under the threat of violence. The criminal wouldn't be him, but the person/group who's forcing him to act criminally - in the case, the state, as usual.
Theymos, I understand you're pissed off by him. He made a series of bad decisions. But if this whole mess was initiated by the state, Nefario is a victim as everybody else. Try your best to be an impartial and fair judge. I honestly have the feeling Nefario is not a scammer, at least not willingly so (of course I may be wrong).
So if you want to remain anonymous, you go penniless?
Yes. It's a terrible betrayal.
The exact same thing happened with MtGox users, a while ago. Before MtGox had their ToS in place, they would hold your money ransom and force you to identify yourself to get it back. Nobody had been formally prevented of this. Some people honestly believed they could operate anonymously, as there was nothing saying they could not, and all of he sudden, "a terrible betrayal".
I've protested many times in the occasion, saying MtGox should at least give these people the chance of leaving with their money, if they did not agree to the new terms. There are many threads in this forum on this subject.
If MtGox didn't get a scammer tag due to that - what may be considered reasonable, since maybe they were being forced to act like that - giving a scammer tag to Nefario for the same kind of actions would be a double standard.
Plus, about violating GLBSE bylaws, Nefario is no longer liable for such break of contract if he's doing so under the threat of violence. The criminal wouldn't be him, but the person/group who's forcing him to act criminally - in the case, the state, as usual.
Theymos, I understand you're pissed off by him. He made a series of bad decisions. But if this whole mess was initiated by the state, Nefario is a victim as everybody else. Try your best to be an impartial and fair judge. I honestly have the feeling Nefario is not a scammer, at least not willingly so (of course I may be wrong).
He didn't inform me. He illegally spent GLBSE user deposits with the expectation that he would replace this money from the BitcoinGlobal treasury later. Which he's unfortunately correct about -- I can't withhold the money from him when this means that there won't be enough money for GLBSE users.
But GLBSE doesn't have a lot of money (only about 600 BTC IIRC). If he continues paying for stuff, this money will run out.
Could you clarify this a bit please theymos. How did he have access to the user deposits? If he was "borrowing" them without authorisation, that's straight up embezzlement regardless of whether he intended to return them at a later time. When did the shareholders become aware that he was spending user deposits and how did you become aware of his intention to replace them with money from BitcoinGlobal? I'm confused about whether the shareholders effectively authorised him taking a "loan" from the business post hoc by agreeing that he would pay back the misappropriated funds from BG money.
I hate to say it, but if you send Nefario user funds knowing full well that he has already misappropriated funds, you're laying yourself wide open to liability. His access to funds needs to be blocked and a way of returning user deposits worked out which doesn't involve Nefario.
Theymos, as treasurer, shouldn't you be the one to disperse the funds to their rightful owners? Why would you be sending the funds to Nefario in the first place, even if you had no knowledge of his treachery?
Theymos is selling his shares so he was told to send the coins to ColdHardMetal. Nefario was also going to send the coins. So neither theymos or nefario would actually control any coins.
Bring back my 8 coins for registering, you bitch!
http://blockchain.info/tx/cbd725daba2b782e76b6bf9bf04ccf1b38d0fe8252be135e8bca41e4b5cb299a
You agent Fed, first created a startup, then robbed him. The purpose of the mission - to discredit project. You agent Fed, like many here, you - enemy BTC.
None of my investors was hurt, I did not buy assets there. Before directly you shut down a site I posted this. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--115376
http://blockchain.info/tx/cbd725daba2b782e76b6bf9bf04ccf1b38d0fe8252be135e8bca41e4b5cb299a
You agent Fed, first created a startup, then robbed him. The purpose of the mission - to discredit project. You agent Fed, like many here, you - enemy BTC.
None of my investors was hurt, I did not buy assets there. Before directly you shut down a site I posted this. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--115376
can somebody translate this to English? I wasn't aware that gibberish was an actual dialect.
That's googletranslatorish.
He seems to just have registered a company on glbse. Called Asic:russia or so:
Only to have GLBSE shutdown after taking his register fees.
That would piss me off, too.
Bring back my 8 coins for registering, you bitch!
http://blockchain.info/tx/cbd725daba2b782e76b6bf9bf04ccf1b38d0fe8252be135e8bca41e4b5cb299a
You agent Fed, first created a startup, then robbed him. The purpose of the mission - to discredit project. You agent Fed, like many here, you - enemy BTC.
None of my investors was hurt, I did not buy assets there. Before directly you shut down a site I posted this. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--115376
http://blockchain.info/tx/cbd725daba2b782e76b6bf9bf04ccf1b38d0fe8252be135e8bca41e4b5cb299a
You agent Fed, first created a startup, then robbed him. The purpose of the mission - to discredit project. You agent Fed, like many here, you - enemy BTC.
None of my investors was hurt, I did not buy assets there. Before directly you shut down a site I posted this. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--115376
can somebody translate this to English? I wasn't aware that gibberish was an actual dialect.
Bring back my 8 coins for registering, you bitch!
http://blockchain.info/tx/cbd725daba2b782e76b6bf9bf04ccf1b38d0fe8252be135e8bca41e4b5cb299a
You agent Fed, first created a startup, then robbed him. The purpose of the mission - to discredit project. You agent Fed, like many here, you - enemy BTC.
None of my investors was hurt, I did not buy assets there. Before directly you shut down a site I posted this. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--115376
http://blockchain.info/tx/cbd725daba2b782e76b6bf9bf04ccf1b38d0fe8252be135e8bca41e4b5cb299a
You agent Fed, first created a startup, then robbed him. The purpose of the mission - to discredit project. You agent Fed, like many here, you - enemy BTC.
None of my investors was hurt, I did not buy assets there. Before directly you shut down a site I posted this. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--115376
email [email protected]
see the bolded text below.
However we dont have any information on the issuers in order to contact them in the first place, so its immposible to do whats being asked, unless we can either access glbse or glbse emails each user with all their details.
You are not being asked to contact the issuer. They are working on a way (some sort of system) for the issuer and share holder to continue cooperating. you just need to "reveal your email. username and BTC address...".see the bolded text below.
Quote
Q: What does this mean if I'm an issuer?
We will do everything in our power to make the process of moving off GLBSE as smooth as possible, we are currently working on a simple, safe, and easy to use method that will allow you to continue your relationship with your asset holders
Q:I'm a GLBSE user, what about my assets and my bitcoin?
You will be able to get back your bitcoin, and if you want to reveal your username, email, and a bitcoin address to accept payments with, you can continue your relationship with the issuer of any assets you hold.
We will do everything in our power to make the process of moving off GLBSE as smooth as possible, we are currently working on a simple, safe, and easy to use method that will allow you to continue your relationship with your asset holders
Q:I'm a GLBSE user, what about my assets and my bitcoin?
You will be able to get back your bitcoin, and if you want to reveal your username, email, and a bitcoin address to accept payments with, you can continue your relationship with the issuer of any assets you hold.
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